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WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion


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#1 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:07 PM

Deleted, so blizzard stops suspending my account.

#2 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:28 PM

Affliction focus remains on drains and dots, Demonology seems to focus on pet survivability and symbiosis, and Destruction seems to be focused on creating shadow/fire hybrids instead of one way or the other.

Quick Analysis (pve):

Eradication, and Empowered Imp both seem far too strong to survive to retail in their current forms.
Metamorphosis would have to be really good to be better than ruin, probably isn't.

Torture, and Backdraft seem pretty horrible and no one is gonna get decimate over demonic sacrifice, and I have no idea why one would want a chance to have instant immolate/searing pain. Destruction and Demo both lose a lot of their current power but only demo seems to get useful new things. The first 21 points of destruction was actually improved which is pretty odd since it is probably the most powerful first 21 points in all of WoW.

So if it went live like this I have a feeling we would see a lot of 50/0/21, and 0/50/21.

0/50/21 would be both the empowered imp machine gun spec (which would give you almost 100% crit rate if this version of empowered imp went live), and the felguard beating spec(no point to use a succubus now that it isn't +10% dmg on master demo and you can reach felguard)

50/0/21 is mostly based on the strength of dots being good when you have bad gear, and eradication giving you nearly 80% uptime of +20% haste, along with being able to reach both ua and ruin.

#3 Deathwing

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:39 PM

So I guess this means heavy destro definitely should be fire?

I don't understand the ISB nerf, nor the spirit/mana regen changes.

Still not seeing anything that would ENSURE pets as useful and survivable on raids(2T5 as a talent isn't enough).

Not seeing anything that makes me go "oooh!"

#4 Pintofbrew

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:47 PM

I'll second that Erradication is stupidly overpowered. A 8sec 20% haste with 10sec CD? Slightly excessive, even taking into account DoTs gain marginally from it. I also feel that Demonic Empowerment is slightly moronic for succubi. A Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card, when you spec later on into "100% to heal for 15% per damage caused"... Seriously, it's T5 setbonus on crack, why would anyone care for the Succy's Bubble? Add to that the fantastic synergy with imp's version of Empowerment and Empowered Imp (running out of names are we?) and warlocks gain a true CD-stacking function: Pop trinket and Empower, thus buffing both you and the imp, gain free crits via talent thus proccing constant ISB. A great synergy if I ever saw one. I'll seccond that on face value, o/50/21 imp bazooka spec seems optimal. Perhaps eventake some points off Demonic Pact (at the imp's rate of fire? it'll be perma-up in no time) and invest into some cataclysm instead. You could safely ditch Destrivtive Reach, as such a vast percentage of damage won't be done by you to start with.

What's with this "next spell instant" bull? There's the same in the mage tree and it does approx nothing useful. Proc to instant Searing Pain. Right.... The threat generator that takes 1.5sec to cast is now a 1.5sec GCD instant... Or better still, save a 1sec cast from Immo, which may possibly be a dps loss if it hasn't ticked far enough.

And what's with the "immo refreshed by Incin"? That's as thick as a doormat. If you keep refreshing the damn thing, the timer will also refresh, meaning you'll be getting one tic of it's DoT component per cast of Immolate. With enough haste, you could even get 0 tics with chain-casting.

#5 Faldrath

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:50 PM

The way some talents point towards making spirit more useful for locks is interesting. I guess that's related to the new more interchangeable itemization they're proposing. And I still don't get why Demonic Sacrifice would require us to waste 6 points in pet-buffing talents.

#6 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:53 PM

From what I gather these dot refreshing talents do not reset the ticks, so they basically mean you cast corruption/immolate once a fight instead of every 18/15.

While the demonic sacrifice requirement is odd you can still get fel vitality, 2/2 healthstone, demonic aegis, the cast time talents and demonic sac for 21 points, so it really doesn't matter.


Pure shadow destro definitely seems dead, maybe destro entirely, at least until gear gets better, remember that the other two trees now have the ability to UA/Ruin, and FG/Ruin and destro didn't gain the ability to pickup anything. As spoiled I think there is 0% chance of destro being the top raiding spec in entry level wotlk.

It isn't just 2Pc T5, Pets also gain 40% of your stamina/armor instead of 30%. As well there is also a 3% dmg group buff so the raid will be more inclined to heal your pet than previously. Felguard was never really hard to keep alive anyways, It is just that the spec was basically the same damage as destro but destro had none of the hassles(asking for pet buffs and pet dying)

Also..

Health Funnel (Rank 8)
99 Health, plus 65 per sec 20 yd range
Channeled
Gives 188 health to the caster's pet every second for 10 sec as long as the caster channels.

Health Funnel (Rank 9)
277 Health, plus 182 per sec 20 yd range
Channeled
Gives 520 health to the caster's pet every second for 10 sec as long as the caster channels.

The top rank of health funnel is also significantly better for those emergency situations (or situations where you cant dps the boss anyways).

#7 Caligula

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:53 PM

Hopefully these new dot refreshing talents (priests included) do not also reset the current tick timer but just reset the debuff to max time (and have it continue ticking at the same rate). Otherwise you're right, they're self defeating.

edit: beaten...
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#8 Smurrf

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:57 PM

Quick notes, to be edited later (I was actually working on trying to come up with this myself.)

Looks like buffs to PvP for Affliction side (Atrocity combined with Soul Depletion). In that same vein, though, those two talents are likely to be completely passed over for a PvE/Raid scenario, in favor of Ruin and maxing out certain other talents.

Everlasting Affliction is very nice in its current form, and basically means that single target DPS will have Corruption ticking on the mob until dead, just from one application.

While 50/0/21 and 0/21/50 are both very likely, another possibility is 29/21/21, where Siphon Life, 4/5 Shadow Mastery, Demonic Sac, and Ruin all get taken. Will likely not compare in damage output to the others, but could be very versatile as a spec.

Note for Demonology - 76 points possible in the tree (in current form), all but 24 require some sort of pet out, and a lot of those are pet specific. And none of the other 52 pts will help the Demon form out at all.

51 pt spell for Destruction appears to be the most useless, and the other top level talents there are similarly lacking. There does appear to be a lot of attempts in the tree to cross spells used (Shadow spells increasing Fire dmg?)

And what is up with Kindred Soul? Napkin math means that unless the spirit bonus from crits is huge, it will either require more spirit on gear, or there needs to be some other bonus to having spirit. Especially given that most Destruction trees will have Demo as a minor, specifically the talent that gives stam, but reduces spirit.

(Edit: Ah, thanks Pint. Completely missed that change to Fel Armor.)

More later when I get home and can play with the trees some more.

#9 Soul

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:03 PM

Yes, the refreshing of DoTs by Shadowbolt is highly questionable... they can't even get refreshing Ignites right... mages end up getting 10k Ignite ticks pushed until the end of the fight and that's a DoT on two second intervals. With Corruption on a three second interval and Shadowbolt being a 2.5 second cast, you'll never see a Corruption tick with 5/5 Everlasting Affliction unless DoT mechanics are drastically changed.

#10 Faldrath

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:04 PM

To be honest, a lot of this reads like warlocks being shifted (back?) to the original mythical class description of "debuffers and summoners". Even a pure destro spec would apparently require less SB/Inc spamming and more DoTting, which is not a bad thing.

#11 Pintofbrew

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:05 PM

Smurrf: The point of spirit, combined obviously with the new Fel Armor, is to decrease dependency on LT. I'll agree that (a) demonic embrace reducing it is counter-intuitive (B) even without the -5%, kindling soul is depressingly low-effect.

The fire-shadow attempt at synergy is quite baffling however.

#12 Deathwing

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:06 PM

I don't see how eradication would be up almost 100% of the time. Your imp, unless you use that Empowerment ability, has a 10% crit rate. That's 35% of a crit every 10s. And that's not counting if the boss just glances at him.

Ok, forgot the new master demonologist and I'm an idiot at math(reversed the chances).

So 15% crit = 80% chance of a crit every 10s. That's much more inline with overpowered...maybe(let me use it first!)

#13 Montegomery

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:07 PM

It's tough to say whether Decimate will be preempted by Demonic Sacrifice or not. Depending on functionality and the raw numbers we simply don't have at this point one can imagine a Decimate build potentially laying down some significant damage.

As it stands I haven't seen a cooldown or mana cost listed for Decimate. If we make the dangerous assumption that this is intentional, then the only limiting factor is the mana/soul shard cost of the spell you are using and blocking out the spell school.

A potential spell rotation would therefore be to, following an initial Immolate, open with a Decimated Shadow Bolt, cast Incinerate a few times and repeat. For additional chances to proc Molten Core, one might take Imp Corruption and throw it on before one of the Decimated Shadow Bolts.

This could potentially result in competitive damage to a DS build, without needing to lose out on Blood Pact and Soul Link.

Of course, any number of things could screw it up. Decimate could have a cooldown, it might invoke the global CD when used, the Chaos Damage might lose out on damage boosting effects like Imp Shadow Bolt or Curse of Elements, etc.

#14 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:19 PM

I don't see how eradication would be up almost 100% of the time. Your imp, unless you use that Empowerment ability, has a 10% crit rate. That's 35% of a crit every 10s. And that's not counting if the boss just glances at him.

Ok, forgot the new master demonologist and I'm an idiot at math(reversed the chances).

So 15% crit = 80% chance of a crit every 10s. That's much more inline with overpowered...maybe(let me use it first!)


Does an imp really only have 10% crit? As destro my character sheet says he gets 8% from my int alone, pair that with 5% from the demonic tactics talent, 10% more of my int and moonkin aura, ret paly, and totem of wrath (unless ofcourse pets don't benefit from these things) and you are well over 25%. Course this spec would be gimping itself pretty badly on any fight with aoe damage that hits pets so it kind of balances.



I had thought of 29/21/21 before these changes came out.. But demonic sacrifice is not better than UA, 1 rank of SM, Eradaction, and the other stuff you get. Eradication is nearly as good as demonic sac on its own.

As to Eradaction uptime, nightfall gets 4% at one tick every 3 seconds, eradication gets 15% at 3.5 ticks a second, you it is gonna proc 13.125 times more than nightfall.

#15 Bismar

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:19 PM

Demonic Pact(45 point) - Increases your Spirit by 1/2/3/4/5% while your Demon is active. In addition, your pet attacks have a 7/14/21/28/35% chance to increase your party's total Health and Damage by 1%. Stacks up to 3 times. Lasts 10 sec.


Edit: I see the 1% doesn't increase. Still, 3% health and damage is quite nice.

A lot of the changes that may not make sense initially, perhaps make more sense from the PvP perspective. Succubus in particular being able to bubble, and reducing damage done to you by a further 30%, gives her some new possibilities (and she'll be harder to kill than she is currently) in arenas.

I'm very eager to see what Metamorphis brings, but let's be honest. The abilities could be "melee for 100" and we would still all spec into at least once to turn into a demon (hopefully resembling the demon that Illidan turns into).

Lastly, I like that they are increasing the armor, int, and stamina the pet shares. But really, we need some way for our pets to benefit from our hit/haste/crit stats. In fact, a lot of these spells based on pets hitting may be nerfalicious if the pet can barely hit a lvl 83 mob.

#16 Pintofbrew

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:19 PM

Pets do benefit from auras, my WE always gained totems auras.

#17 Bismar

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:23 PM

It's tough to say whether Decimate will be preempted by Demonic Sacrifice or not. Depending on functionality and the raw numbers we simply don't have at this point one can imagine a Decimate build potentially laying down some significant damage.

As it stands I haven't seen a cooldown or mana cost listed for Decimate. If we make the dangerous assumption that this is intentional, then the only limiting factor is the mana/soul shard cost of the spell you are using and blocking out the spell school.

A potential spell rotation would therefore be to, following an initial Immolate, open with a Decimated Shadow Bolt, cast Incinerate a few times and repeat. For additional chances to proc Molten Core, one might take Imp Corruption and throw it on before one of the Decimated Shadow Bolts.

This could potentially result in competitive damage to a DS build, without needing to lose out on Blood Pact and Soul Link.

Of course, any number of things could screw it up. Decimate could have a cooldown, it might invoke the global CD when used, the Chaos Damage might lose out on damage boosting effects like Imp Shadow Bolt or Curse of Elements, etc.


I myself might like a Decimate: Soulburn. Yeah, Soul Fire. How long since we've seen that spell?

#18 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:27 PM

Decimate has a 3 minute cooldown, just looked it up. I'll edit the top post.

Also did a little checking. Top rank of shadowbolt is 27.6% better than current rank, top rank of incinerate is 31.2% better. Not a big difference but this is theorycrafting so every little bit counts.

#19 Guest_Allanar_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:29 PM

This is a silly quick analysis based on what I've seen, but it seems to me like they're trying to get destro locks away from shadow and more into fire, possibly because....we're going to be facing a whole lot of ice mobs.

#20 Malan

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:30 PM

This is a silly quick analysis based on what I've seen, but it seems to me like they're trying to get destro locks away from shadow and more into fire, possibly because....we're going to be facing a whole lot of ice mobs.


Why would an 'ice mob' have anything to do with shadow damage?




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