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#21 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:32 PM

Why would an 'ice mob' have anything to do with shadow damage?


Maybe they will put spell vulnerability back in the game.

#22 Guest_Allanar_*

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:33 PM

Why would an 'ice mob' have anything to do with shadow damage?


They'd have nothing to do with shadow damage, which is why I suggested they're getting us to lean more towards fire.

#23 koalachan

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:36 PM

I wouldn't say Destruction is out, not at all. Fire and shadow are quite competative endgame currently. Regardless of dps comparisons, Shadow has room for more fun abilities on the side. Now the new talents don't boost SB spam in any way, but Eternal Flames does boost Fire in a very significant way. Considering this big boost to fire, I don't think Death's Embrace and Everlasting Affliction are anywhere near to bringing a build that is severely behind right now to the same level. Could be as bad as it still not beating SB spam with Imp Corruption and Life Tap.

#24 Smurrf

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:36 PM

It's not what Shadow has to do as far as Ice goes, he's saying that, well, what naturally destroys Ice? The application of Heat; in this case, a nice firey blast. Boils (heh) down to forcing people to use spells that lorewise would make more sense in a given environment.

#25 Pintofbrew

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:42 PM

I'd wager money that fire/frost interaction is next-to-none in terms of sensitivity/immunity, because if any smartass dev starts tossing around Frost-immune mobs there'll be hell to pay from mages. The frost tree is working out to be optimized for 60ish points to make it work well.

#26 Morwen

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:46 PM

The Molten Core / Torture talents are a good first step from a general design perspective (even though the current text of Torture makes no sense). The aim seems to be create some kind of reactive spell diversity in a typical casting cycle. Ever since pre-TBC, warlock dps cycles has been condensed to the single principle of "theorycraft the highest dpct spell and then cast it as often as possible". Shadow destruction is so prevalent today because Shadow Bolt not only has the highest dpct for the spec but acts as its own buffet through ISB, so you never cast anything else. The shadow-buffs-fire idea was tried once (original 2T4) but failed then, hopefully it can be implemented properly in the expansion with new mechanics.

#27 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:50 PM

I wouldn't say Destruction is out, not at all. Fire and shadow are quite competative endgame currently. Regardless of dps comparisons, Shadow has room for more fun abilities on the side. Now the new talents don't boost SB spam in any way, but Eternal Flames does boost Fire in a very significant way. Considering this big boost to fire, I don't think Death's Embrace and Everlasting Affliction are anywhere near to bringing a build that is severely behind right now to the same level. Could be as bad as it still not beating SB spam with Imp Corruption and Life Tap.


Do you remember what happened at the start of TBC? Affliction was by far the best spec, because dots are far better in entry level gear than nukes are. Eradication in its current form is worth around 15% spell haste, then the spec picks up ua or ruin(roughly another 10% overall dmg increase). 4pc t6 will eventually be obsoleted giving up another advantage destro had. Corruption will be ticking without needing to be recast at 150% spell coefficient, and siphon life at 120%(changing both these spells to be far higher dpct than incinerate), and +15% crit rate at <20%. Fire destro gains.. +10% crit damage, a very minor damage from spirit buff, and no recast on immolate(which to be fair is probably worth half as much as no recast on corruption). Not to mention if fire mages aren't the best mage spec for raid dps fire lock becomes completely useless automatically.

I am not advocating that destro locks would be unviable the entire expansion, but I don't think they will be at release.

#28 Deathwing

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:59 PM

Does this seem right for calculating Empowered Imp uptime:

1 - .4^(8*C)

Where C = imp crit chance

Gives me ~75% uptime.

#29 Madlax

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:07 PM

While at first sight these talents make me all warm inside a deeper look is needed:

Eradication(25 point) - Your Corruption, Siphon Life, and Curse of Agony ticks have a 5/10/15% chance to increase your spell casting speed by 20% for 8 sec. This effect has a 10 second cooldown.
It is indeed a slightly overpowered from the looks.

My guess is that WotLK will remove plain 1 button(2 in case of IC) nuking and move us towards 3-4 ability fighting PvE games.

Destro tree analyzed:
Molten Core (5 point)
This sounds interesting in combination of Immolate/Corruption/Haunt

Kindling Soul (35 point)
Hm, 10% of 177 spirit? This better scale in WotLK - a 17dam talent in tier 7 would be a major joke.

Backdraft (40 point)
I don't see a use in that talent, 10% on Immolate - ye. But Conflag still is a sucky DPS spell.

Torture (40 point, 3 ranks)
With the growing amounts of spell haste, this hardly keeps any viability imho.

Eternal Flames (45 point)
This sounds very interesting actually.
10% more crit on IC. No more IM casting.
Definitly a big need on this one.

Cataclysm - 5 points
Bane - 5 points
Devastation - 5 points
Intensity/Reach - 2x2 points
Molten Core - 1 point(20 total)
Ruin - 1 point
Molten Core - 2 points
Shadowburn(my preference) - 1 point
Improved Immolate - 1 point (25 total)
Emberstorm - 5 points
Backlash - 3 points
Kindling - 2 points(35 total)
Shadow and Flame - 5 points
Kindling - 1 point
Improved Immolate - 4 points(45 total)
Eternal Flames - 5 points

21 points remaining
Same sh*t in Demo tree as before.

As much as I'd love to not use that specc - from the first head-calc it still seems like it is gonna be a or even the top DPS one..

#30 rooj

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:07 PM

I don't understand why they have a 35pt destro talent that suddenly asks locks to go get some spirit. Why not have it tied to a different stat altogether, perhaps stam. A 5% stam converted to spell dmg with every crit temporarily increasing stamina seems to have much more of a lock flavor to me.

#31 Deathwing

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:14 PM

Eradication uptime(assuming you're putting up all three dots):

(1-.85^8) = 72.7%

Not sure how to scale it for the 10s cooldown...multiply by .8? Seems that would throw an artificial wrench in the mix that you can't really model mathematically. Probably can assume an average of 10% haste all the time.

#32 Pintofbrew

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:18 PM

i don't understand why they have a 35pt destro talent that suddenly asks locks to go get some spirit. Why not have it tied to a different stat altogether, perhaps stam. 5% stam converted to spell dmg with a crit increasing stamina seems to have much more of a lock flavor to me.


Because Fel Armor now allows 30% of your passive regeneration to generate while casting.

#33 Morwen

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:23 PM

Not sure how to scale it for the 10s cooldown...multiply by .8?


Basically all chance-per-second procs with fixed cooldowns can be reasonably modeled by the Exponential distribution shifted by the cooldown time, it is still fairly easy to model but you have to use an integral.

#34 Kel S'jet

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:31 PM

It's tough to say whether Decimate will be preempted by Demonic Sacrifice or not. Depending on functionality and the raw numbers we simply don't have at this point one can imagine a Decimate build potentially laying down some significant damage.


I believe Decimate will lead to some fantastic burst finishers by Destro locks, perhaps to the point where a pure nuke based destro lock build will be arena viable. (though there will still be the issue of survivability).

Decimate opens up really cool and interesting combos which could potentially change an existing step and/or strat in arenas. For example, we all know when dealing with classes like paladins and mages (immunities) that it is a gated step in flushing out the trinket and the immunity so that the paladin can be open to CC and/or more burst. With Decimate, this dynamic could change. No longer will we have to wait out the immunity (secs are worth thousands of gold in arena, and the fact that you have to essentially 'wait out' the immunity could mean all the difference when in an arena match). Previously, you were heavily dependent on a priest to mass dispel the immunity to be able to continue a burst.

But with Decimate, you can assure a successful burst on an opponent, depending on, naturally, when the paladin decides to bubble. If he bubbles too late (i.e his health is less than the damage done by, say, Soulfire) then you are guaranteed a successful burn, if he bubbles too early, then we are back to square one. Either way, it will force pally/mage teams to really think clearly about when/why they are bubbling during a focus burn, hence, dividing the skilled pallies from the non-skilled ones, even further.

Furthermore, it also adds an interesting dynamic to the warlock. Do you decimate cast a soulfire and have your shadow tree still available for fears and stuff? Or do you decimate cast a shadowbolt, effectively knocking out your shadow tree for the next 3 secs (hence, no fear, no deathcoil etc), but have the shadowbolt perhaps do more damage due to the benifits it gets through talents, curses, saccing pets etc (assuming a decimated sbolt will still get the extra benifits, even though its chaos damage).

Add to this the pew pew factor of a backlash procced insta sbolt, followed by insta soulfire. Its like burst on crack!

Seduce > sbolt > immo (while sbolt is on its way) > shadowfury > searing pain (during the stun) > shadowflame > conflag > shadowburn > decimated soulfire

Can you say "ouch!"? And imagine if you get lucky and have taken pyroclasm (26% chance to stun on soulfire for 3 secs, NB, even impact specced fire mages have less of a chance to stun!)

We're looking at some serious...destruction!

#35 Montegomery

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:31 PM

Bah at the cooldown on Decimate. 0/21/50 it is until they change things.

It definitely does look like they're trying to push Destruction away from being so reliant on Life Tap. You'll be choosing between 26% more effective healing or 240 Spell Damage and 39% mana regen while casting. Even without the mana regen, I think most Destruction Warlocks would choose the latter.

#36 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:37 PM

Eradication uptime(assuming you're putting up all three dots):

(1-.85^8) = 72.7%

Not sure how to scale it for the 10s cooldown...multiply by .8? Seems that would throw an artificial wrench in the mix that you can't really model mathematically. Probably can assume an average of 10% haste all the time.


I am not sure I understand your eradication uptime formula you are gonna have more than 1 dot tick per second.


Shadowbolt base damage increase is +148, Incin +187

CoA base is +384
Corruption base is +180
Siphon base is +180
UA base is +330

Spell hit, spell crit, and spell haste values from rating will probably be cut in half. All of these things hurt destruction and help affliction. I am not saying affliction will be the best spec, just better than destruction at the current values. Most likely fire destruction will still scale better than affliction, but I don't think shadow destro will ever overtake affliction.

#37 Kuradoberi

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:42 PM

I was hoping Affliction got a 51 pointer makes us want not to get Ruin, just like the fresh start of TBC, 41/0/20 or any variants involving UA.

Seems in wotlk it all boils down to this : to Ruin or not to Ruin :(
Just like what other have said, 21 destruction is too damn powerful not to spec into. ( now with +hit talents )
If Atrocity is the 51 affliction pointer, Ruin has already won.
Metamorphosis, datamined as a 45sec buff with a 5min cd, hopefully works as a lock's "execution time".

Talents aside, I am very interested in the new possible spirit changes. Lifetap was always included in any rotation, reducing the amounts needed to lifetap = more time to dps.

Either the imp can dps in phase shift mode or some other change, I can't see Empowered talents working with an imp that will get 1shotted due to any aoe/splash damage. I doubt Blizzard will change their aoe damage in raid environment just to have an imp on 100% dps time duty :P

PS : Don't nerf Ruin, buff the other trees :(

#38 Anexus

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:44 PM

Demology + ruin looks interesting, but now that we can get both a felguard and ruin it doesnt make much sense to have your imp as a dps pet. Unless the imp gets some huge survivability buff (from the demon trainer) I dont see how we're suppose to keep it alive. The 2pt5 talent is great, and the extra amor and stamina, but I doubt that will be enough to avoid 1-shots on aoe abilities. With the added group buff I also think we'll get "doomed" to using this pet. But again.. dead pets cant buff. I find it all a bit strange.

#39 Deathwing

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:50 PM

I am not sure I understand your eradication uptime formula you are gonna have more than 1 dot tick per second.


Shadowbolt base damage increase is +148, Incin +187

CoA base is +384
Corruption base is +180
Siphon base is +180
UA base is +330

Spell hit, spell crit, and spell haste values from rating will probably be cut in half. All of these things hurt destruction and help affliction. I am not saying affliction will be the best spec, just better than destruction at the current values. Most likely fire destruction will still scale better than affliction, but I don't think shadow destro will ever overtake affliction.


I used an 8s window to see how many dot ticks there would be, which is where I got the exponential, 8.

Are you saying I should have used a 10s window instead?


BTW, an eradication/Empowered Imp build might be fun. More burst than you can shake a mage at.

#40 Flamingcloud

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:54 PM

I used an 8s window to see how many dot ticks there would be, which is where I got the exponential, 8.

Are you saying I should have used a 10s window instead?


BTW, an eradication/Empowered Imp build might be fun. More burst than you can shake a mage at.


My intuition is telling me the formula should be more complicated than that. It is possible that 10 dot ticks would occur in the 8 second window depending on how things are synced.


In response to some other posts.

Well the machine gun imp spec would basically use felguard (but with a bunch of wasted talents) in situations where it would die. Felguard isn't that brittle.. It would basically be getting 2pc T5, -5% dmg taken, and +1000hp at level 70 levels from the new talents.

I am personally of the idea that ruin(and most of the talents like it) should be removed from the game and spells should crit at 100% by default. It is just too powerful, especially later in an expansion (as shown by 0/40/21 becoming the best demo spec)




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