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Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion


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#41 Deedre

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 04:15 PM

20% haste is still amazingly good.

#42 Apaine

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 04:34 PM

Post 687 from the mage WotLK discussion shows our spell mana cost increases as compared to current spells.
http://elitistjerks....discussion/p28/

Looks like starfire is getting 50% mana increase for their last rank - which is in line with mage's increases. Warlocks are getting 70% mana increases, and shamans are getting 120% mana increases...

Given that we are getting no new mana regen talents, the spirit based mana regen will probably be very important in the expansion. Too bad in order to use it, we have to have minimum 13 points in Resto.

#43 erragal

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 02:06 PM

ok, the new patch notes are out. and there are a few nerfs.

Improved Moonkin Aura gives 20% spell haste it seems, not 100%.
Nature's Fury no longer gives the 20% conversion of +healing to damage: [so we lose the scaling damage talent that every caster class semes to get].
Starfall has the additional damage range reduced to 5 yards
Starfall is now added to Celestial Focus, Focuse Starlight, Vengeance and Moonglow
Lunar Guidance is nerfed by 50%
Owlkin Frenzy changed to "Immune to Pushback" instead of giving haste.

Nothing done about the bloating that I can see.

Balance nerfed across the board. They should really combine a few more talents. Was it necessary to nerf so much though?


Nature's Fury: New effect: Your Wrath and Starfire spells have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance of applying the Nature's Fury debuff on the target. The Nature's Fury debuff increases Nature and Arcane damage done to the target by 2/4/6%. Lasts 12 sec. Stacks up to 3 times. No longer convert bonus healing into spell damage.

You forgot that.

18% constant increase to arcane and nature damage on the target. That's not a nerf at all. And everyone knew Improved Moonkin Aura was overpowered as written, lets be reasonable. I'm not sure about the Lunar Guidance nerf, but it is probably directly related to the huge buff to Nature's Fury.


EDIT: The reports say Shadow Priests lost the 20% healing to damage conversion as well. So they decided to go in a different direction, most likely.

#44 Munorion

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 02:52 PM

I'm not sure about the Lunar Guidance nerf, but it is probably directly related to the huge buff to Nature's Fury.

That, and it seems that Blizzard is going to boost Intellect on caster items in WotLK (see http://elitistjerks....on_thread/p138/ and following pages). So the "nerf" of Lunar Guidance might simply be necessary to keep it on the current level of effectiveness. Depending on how much Int gets boosted, it will also be interesting to revisit the Dreamstate vs. Intensity discussion.

#45 PsyBomb

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:02 PM

Nature's Fury: New effect: Your Wrath and Starfire spells have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance of applying the Nature's Fury debuff on the target. The Nature's Fury debuff increases Nature and Arcane damage done to the target by 2/4/6%. Lasts 12 sec. Stacks up to 3 times. No longer convert bonus healing into spell damage.

You forgot that.

18% constant increase to arcane and nature damage on the target. That's not a nerf at all. And everyone knew Improved Moonkin Aura was overpowered as written, lets be reasonable. I'm not sure about the Lunar Guidance nerf, but it is probably directly related to the huge buff to Nature's Fury.


EDIT: The reports say Shadow Priests lost the 20% healing to damage conversion as well. So they decided to go in a different direction, most likely.


Erragal, that text can't be right. it has 2 point-scaling numbers, one of which has 5 points while the other has 3. So no dice. I believe Lhivera dug it up and said it's still just 2% per stack.

As for the rest of it, I have to admit that the original set was WAY overpowered. I was expecting this, and now most of it is much more reasonable. Moonkin Aura being 20% cast speed can now (remotely) be considered as just a static aura. It will still result in Starfire shots approaching the GCD off a crit, and with some haste gear it's going to be reasonable to see it go under 1.5 seconds. Owlkin Frenzy is now better for its intended PvP purpose, and Starfall being added to the scaling talents is a very good thing (even if the range got halved... which is, again, reasonable for that kind of effect).

Halving Lunar Guidance stings, though. I'll admit that having a 24% spellpower conversion from Int would be just a wee bit OP when Int numbers are looking to be at 600+ (144 spellpower from 3 talent points), but still.
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#46 Apaine

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:05 PM

I agree the nature's fury looks a bit fishy, but I'm more saddened about the 20% loss from healing items.

I would actually love to have unified armor set between resto and moonkin specs, and somehow restricted access to cloth. Let's face it, we're moonkins, we're supposed to wear leather items, and we're supposed to have 14-17k armor in the bird form to defend in pvp.

#47 Adoriele

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:06 PM

Looks like the Eclipse proc is getting a 2min internal cooldown, which plants it very firmly in the 'Only for PvP' area.

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#48 smellme

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:31 PM

Nature's Fury: New effect: Your Wrath and Starfire spells have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance of applying the Nature's Fury debuff on the target. The Nature's Fury debuff increases Nature and Arcane damage done to the target by 2/4/6%. Lasts 12 sec. Stacks up to 3 times. No longer convert bonus healing into spell damage.

You forgot that.

18% constant increase to arcane and nature damage on the target. That's not a nerf at all. And everyone knew Improved Moonkin Aura was overpowered as written, lets be reasonable. I'm not sure about the Lunar Guidance nerf, but it is probably directly related to the huge buff to Nature's Fury.


EDIT: The reports say Shadow Priests lost the 20% healing to damage conversion as well. So they decided to go in a different direction, most likely.


i think shadowpriests will more probably be seeing better use of the spirit stats also given the enw version

Twisted Faith (new) - Increases your Shadow damage by 6/12/18/24/30% of your total Spirit, and your damage done by your Mind Flay and Mind Blast is increased by 1/2/3/4/5% for each of your Shadow damage over time effects on the target.

#49 Apaine

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:19 PM

i think shadowpriests will more probably be seeing better use of the spirit stats also given the enw version

Twisted Faith (new) - Increases your Shadow damage by 6/12/18/24/30% of your total Spirit, and your damage done by your Mind Flay and Mind Blast is increased by 1/2/3/4/5% for each of your Shadow damage over time effects on the target.


That's true, but given that spirit mana regen formula will finally be the same for all classes, and we have talented access to 30% spirit regen while casting, and innervate (which gets very powerfull with higher spirit - hallo "on use" spirit trinkets) spirit for us will play larger role too (at least it should).

As for Eclipse.. I don't understand this talent. In raids wrath is too mana intensive, and it doesn't get raid bonuses from CoE the way moonfire and starfire does.

The changes in nature's fury give 6% (currently... hoping it will be bigger - 10% wouldn't hurt) bonus to nature and arcane... but since it should stack with CoS, it will still make us cast arcane spells in preference.

What I don't get from what was posted is, why would they nerf Lunar guidance from 24% to 12%... yet introduce a talent for Spriest giving them 30% benefit from spirit. Spirit can be stacked as much as int can. It's currently useless for dps purposes, that's why nobody does it - but if it becomes usefull, getting 500-600 spirit is possible for cloth. Holy priests have it right now for mana regen alone.

#50 Axanor

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 11:36 PM

Numbers are going to be tweaked a lot. Worrying about them now is kinda pointless. Better to look at the big picture and what they're trying to achieve.

I'm guessing that the attempt to make DPS and Healers use the same gear just didn't work out. Which is just as well, as Cloth is fine for PvE.

#51 Balancemoon

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:44 AM

Erragal, that text can't be right. it has 2 point-scaling numbers, one of which has 5 points while the other has 3. So no dice. I believe Lhivera dug it up and said it's still just 2% per stack.

As for the rest of it, I have to admit that the original set was WAY overpowered. I was expecting this, and now most of it is much more reasonable. Moonkin Aura being 20% cast speed can now (remotely) be considered as just a static aura. It will still result in Starfire shots approaching the GCD off a crit, and with some haste gear it's going to be reasonable to see it go under 1.5 seconds. Owlkin Frenzy is now better for its intended PvP purpose, and Starfall being added to the scaling talents is a very good thing (even if the range got halved... which is, again, reasonable for that kind of effect).

Halving Lunar Guidance stings, though. I'll admit that having a 24% spellpower conversion from Int would be just a wee bit OP when Int numbers are looking to be at 600+ (144 spellpower from 3 talent points), but still.


Looking at Lunar Guidance nerf, one does wonder if all the other classes that have a similar talent boosting spell damage from gear based on intellect are also getting a similar nerf. If not, it does not bode well, and makes you wonder why. Do not be surprised though if balance druids panic, the tree has been notoriously left unfinished and not compensated for in the past, well frankly since release really... 1.8 saw a poor tree barely improved. 2.0 as well it seemed it was more a rush and catch up job because although damage and regen were made viable, well you couldn't say balance druids were on the same level as the other dps caster.

Finally WotLK details start trickling out and it looks like for the first time since release proper attention has been paid to balance and not just hasty fixes, but because it's alpha and it could all go up in smoke leaving broken hopes and a still incomplete dps caster. One should not get too excited as it's alpha, but everything that has appeared seems exciting because it finally has all the missing elements the build has been craving for form a spell caster view for along time...so any nerfs even though in alpha that aren't repeated across the board will be bound to cause some creased brows, because what balance druids do not want is to go into the 3rd expansion still a second rate caster.

The only other thing I hope for is that the other druid abilities yet to be revealed are as exciting and fun. WoW balance druids need to come out in a memorable way, like shadow priests did in classic wow. This would probably mean "flavour of the month" but I don't think any balance druid will shun that, after 4 years in the shadows.

All I can say is don't panic, despite the tendency to do so, I'm sure they are still messing around with a lot of stuff, trying to sort out itemisation and it's impact, hence why you've seen many spirit based talents arise, it could signal a change in many things, and Lunar Guidance may very well not be th eonly dmg/heal boost on intellect to be nerfed.

I do hope everything on the tree now does stay there but requiring about 5-10 less points and more buffs not nerfs will follow, but hey, who says I can't wish?

#52 Apaine

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 04:32 AM

I agree. I would love balance druids become new "shadow priests". Shunned and laughed at in Original WoW, in BC they became the "stars" of the raid with their mana regen.

But even then, during last 8 months when haste gear became more popular, Spriests fell behind on dps charts just because their damage doesn't scale...

But what ability would it take for moonkin to debiut in this way?

#53 Balancemoon

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:05 AM

Indeed Apaine, and it's looking good for shadow priests, as their new changes are addressing all the issues that higher level itemisation T6 onwards caused and redresses every major issue they had in pvp that saw a dip in their supremacy.

The balance abilities were looking quite good for pvE, and I thought the Improved Moonkin Aura was finally the one to do it, even though the original description beggered belief. The new value of 20% while still good no longer makes it the ability that makes em stand up and take note, but it is now in line with other TBC abilities with the current value. This is also curious mas I would expert defining abilities to seem overpowered for TBC, seeing that WotLK.

Infected wounds in the Feral tree I think was it's defining ability, and it was pvp focused, as Feral druids don't have the same viability issues/ "least needed of the role" complex to them. It was arena that the biggest deficiency was most apparent, whiles PvE needed smaller tweaks which it seems to be getting.

Let's just hope that there are no more nerfs, and that any changes that come would be an improvement on what has already been released from the Alpha. Let's hope things get better and not worse, but we'll see.

Did you notice that almost every other spec and class that had changes got nerfs but also got some alternative improvements whiles balance just got nerfs largely? Let's hope next build is better news.

#54 Anedris

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 06:17 AM

It's the alpha. It's really not worth worrying about every buff and nerf - there's going to be a lot of them from here until live.

20% spell haste is enormous. If that's not enough for a "stand and take note" ability I'm not sure what is. (Don't compare it with the initial 100% version - that was ludicrous and everyone knew it.)

Blizzard noticed that shadow priests were quite broken in TBC and they're addressing that by making them more like normal classes - reducing their over-the-top utility while buffing their damage output into line with other hybrids. Which is fine.

#55 Balancemoon

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 09:59 AM

Yeah, you're right, it was just a surprise to see a right across the board nerf. Anyway, back to discussion.

Firstly
Owlkin Frenzy I think is in a more useful form now, though the number needs to be tweaked, I'm thinking it should be given a much higher proc rate now the haste has been removed. I would wish for a 25/50/75% chance to gain immunity to casting and a 5/10/15% chance to get the 10% damage increase.

If you consider the previous build description with haste, unless you picked Celestial focus, if you were been hit, haste while nice would still have to work casting through pushback unless you only spammed wrath making Celestial Focus essential, either way, what is the use being hasted while being hit if you are constantly interrupted? I'm also thinking that it would be great for AoE casting if you happened to be AoE tanking, 10sec immunity will allow a Hurricane or Tranquility without interruption.

Maybe it should read gives 15/30/45% to grant immunity to casting from pushback and damage increase of 10%. It's cool shadowform now grants 100% immunity from pushback, and whiles this is not quite there, at least there is a 10% damage increase when frenzied.

Or perhaps even better would be to leave it as it is at 5/10/15% but extend the pushback immunity to stuns and interrupts and allow the effect to proc off receiiving spell damage.

Secondly
Improved Nature's Grasp may find more use if, each rank as well as increasing the chance to proc, also gave an additional charge of nature's grasp that would proc an additional entangling root. So at rank 4, you could in theory get 5 roots off. In PvP, they only last 10secs anyway but each additional root could get a further 20% duration penalty, such that the last charge of root has it's duration reduced by 80% of your standard root, in PvE it's more a solo boost, but I'm thinking that would make Imp Nature's Grasp far more appealing.

If they were nice, they'd give it just like that i.e. gaining a root charge per rank in Imp Nature's Grasp having the same proc chance, if a bit meaner, it would probably be worded something like ".increase the chance for your Nature's Grasp to entangle the enemy by 15/30/45/65% and gives your nature's grasp and an additional 1/2/3/4 charges of entangling roots. Each charge has a 5/10/15/20% chance after being hit to proc an additional entangling root on an attacker not already afflicted by roots. Each additional root procced from charges has it's duration reduced by 20% per charge...." Nice? or Overpowered?

Another useful thing Imp Nature's Grasp could cause i n addition to the 100% proc chance of Nature's Grasp, is that it could give on rank 1 the ability to for NG to proc from spell attacks, then per rank, a 5/10/15/20% chance for target's afflicted by your roots to be silenced for 6secs every time they take damage from your roots. Once procced, this effect cannot proc again for 30secs.

Now that roots damage is applied every sec, this could be worth the investment,

Thirdly.
The final improvement I would like to see, is Control of Nature grant cyclone a 0.5/1/1.5sec cast time reduction. Looking for a stronger pvp boost to balance than witnessed so far, and would also be quite useful tool in PvE 5/10-mans to accompany roots indoors would make this better than no interruption. GCD means it's still a 1.5s gap between cyclones, but having it instantly instead I can see helping PvE a lot also, not just pvp, especially in noob groups. Taunts should work through cyclone, but whiles playing a balance druid, helping cout with control, having cyclone on an instant cast is a lot more useful than a 1.5sec cast when reacting to danger. You aggro or your fellow caster does, you can at least cyclone a mob straight off. It is fitting balance druids have a more convenient use of cyclone that does not depend on you being hit. Cyclone is already nerfed in range because other druids can use it, and has that diminishing returns in Pvp AND PvE, for which a 1.5sec cast to last 1.5s is imo quite mean.

They could tie up all the anti push back talents in one, rather scatter wrath pushback in celestial focus, add it to Control of Nature and exchange positions with it in the tree. Celestial Focus could instead perhaps, in addition to the stun reduce your Starfall cooldown and/or have moonfire proc the stun. So Control of Nature reads: Reduces the cast time of your Cyclone spell by 0.5/1/1.5secs and gives a 40/70/100% chance to avoid interruption caused by pushback while casting Entangling roots and a 25/50/75% resist push back on Wrath..."

#56 Benita

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 12:25 PM

Uninterruptable Cyclone? Not in this lifetime.

I agree on pushbacks being harsh on Moonkins and bringing Wrath/IS back into raids would be a nice change aswell, i wonder if that will come as a byproduct of destro/affliction fixes.

#57 Balancemoon

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 03:24 PM

From a pvp perscpective, owlkin frenzy is the ncest and brambles too, but they aren't all that. Maybe if the pushback immunity extended to interrupt immunity or stun immunity, if they gave both they'd no doubt lower the proc rate to an altogether worthless level, so either stun or interrupt immunity. In PvE it will serve best during aoe time, especially if there are several groups that need aoeing and your paladin and deathknight are already on one each.

The two largest issues concerning pvp are the bloated tree and intensity. Now that threat reduction has been pushed back into the balance tree, they should swap the positions of Intensity and Subtelety. Afterall, Master Shapeshifter is good incentive to spec to at least 12 points in restoration, but having intensity quite a requirement for balance druids needing to at least 13pts in the toher tree for it's own spec, is tough.

#58 Erdluf

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 04:54 PM

I just can't see Eclipse being very popular, unless you are currently at a gear level where Wath > SF for DPS, but you want to use SF for mana reasons.

3 Points in Eclipse says that by casting Wrath a few times, I make my SF an average of something less than 2.5% better (over a long fight). In PvP you probably don't use SF enough to spend the talent points.

Compare that to 3 points in Nature's Fury, which is pretty much a full-time, 6% increase to Nature and Arcane for the entire raid.

In a bloated tree, I can't see many choosing Eclipse for PvP or PvE. I suppose some will ignore the resto tree entirely (no master shapeshifter or intensity, ouch) and get it, but I think it needs a little more "oomph" to be viable (remove the cooldown?).

#59 Adoriele

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:05 PM

I just can't see Eclipse being very popular, unless you are currently at a gear level where Wath > SF for DPS, but you want to use SF for mana reasons.

3 Points in Eclipse says that by casting Wrath a few times, I make my SF an average of something less than 2.5% better (over a long fight). In PvP you probably don't use SF enough to spend the talent points.

Compare that to 3 points in Nature's Fury, which is pretty much a full-time, 6% increase to Nature and Arcane for the entire raid.

In a bloated tree, I can't see many choosing Eclipse for PvP or PvE. I suppose some will ignore the resto tree entirely (no master shapeshifter or intensity, ouch) and get it, but I think it needs a little more "oomph" to be viable (remove the cooldown?).


Eclipse is pretty decent for PvP. You're forgetting that, by definition, the wrath which procs the SF Eclipse buff will also proc Nature's Grace, and probably will proc iMKA as well, leading to a ~2s SF cast, which isn't horrible. Being in Frenzy would make this un-push-backable. A 10% increased chance to crit on SF would put it close to 33% in-form on even the least-geared Moonkin, which means 3 casts is statistically enough to get the Wrath buff as well, which would be nice for cannoning (making the assumption that the buffs do not share a cooldown. If they do, Eclipse is all but useless).

PvE, it's not worth the points. Any decent PvE build is already point-starved by having to go at least 13 in Resto for Intensity, likely 15 for MS as well. Though this brings up a different question. All signs are pointing to Intellect getting a Stam-like increase (Lower percent from Lunar Guidance being the major tell) in order to prvide better mana regen for all casters. If this goes through, it may be the case that Intensity is no longer necessary for us, as at the levels of int we'll be getting, DS will have better returns.

#60 Apaine

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 05:09 PM

Instant cyclone? nah - that would be OP.... but there should be something done to make it less likely to getting kicked/bashed while trying to spam wrath into person's face... not to mention simple "run through me - no spell cast" mechanics which are just plain annoying and rely on low latency to be avoided.

How about reducing the wrath cast time by additional 0.5/1 seconds somewhere deep in the tree (so only dedicated moonkins can get it... maybe make that owlkin frenzie proc off getting hit would be a good idea... but make it 0.3/0.7/1 then - so warth still has 0.5 sec cast and it's not instant. Instant wraths on the run would be indeed OP, but a 0.5 sec cast with 70% pushback reduction would be hard to kick (not impossibile), hard to run though and good enough to spam in melee (GCD would still make it a 1.5 sec cast, so in raids / PVP it still would keep it's DPS rating).

Also Nature's grace should reduce GCD by 0.5 seconds as well when that proces.. otherwise it's a broken talent when spamming wrath :/ either that or replace it with something usefull.... mana on crit would be nice... or a voulnerability to specific type of damage on crit (like ISB which made locks so powerfull)....




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