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PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion


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#1 Vulajin

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 08:51 AM

This thread is for discussion of rogue PvE DPS, including but not limited to:

1) Discussion of any topics covered by the http://elitistjerks....-rogue_pve_dps/ article.
2) Discussion of rogue PvE DPS in practice in specific encounters or areas of WoW.
3) Discussion of any current theorycrafting topics relating to rogue PvE DPS.
4) Discussion of Wrath of the Lich King talents/abilities and their relation to rogue PvE DPS.

This thread is not for discussion of any other ill-conceived notions of other roles for the rogue class, including but not limited to rogue tanking. Please do not waste your breath discussing them here; there are other threads where you may do so, and quite frankly, no one cares how good you speculate rogue tanking might possibly be if Blizzard maybe gets the idea that rogues could perhaps be tanks.

Before posting anything in this thread, please read this first post in its entirety, as it will be kept up to date with any relevant current developments in rogue PvE DPS theorycraft.

Rogue PvE DPS FAQ

1. (NEW 10/15/08) Will the Rogue: PvE DPS article be updated in the near future?

Yes, it will be updated before Wrath release. No, it will not be updated in the next week or probably even the week after that. The updated article will apply only to instancing/raiding in Wrath. It will not apply to anything you do in the next four weeks in BC. If you're in need of information on what to do in 3.0 BC, just read the last 20 or so pages of this thread.

If you'd like to provide any input or insight towards the updated version of the Rogue: PvE DPS article, please post it in this thread or send me a PM.

2. (NEW 10/15/08) What should I spec/what gear should I wear/what cycle should I use in 3.0 BC?

There have been at least 20 pages' worth of discussion on this topic at the end of this thread. Please read them and be enlightened. The search function is also very useful. Try not to waste everyone's time and make the thread longer than it needs to be by asking questions that have already been asked.

3. Do I have enough hit rating for...?

If you need to ask this question, you have not read the http://elitistjerks....-rogue_pve_dps/ article. The short answer is that there are no magic numbers, and you are asking the wrong question.

4. These are my stats, am I ready for...?

Again, if you need to ask this question, you have not read the http://elitistjerks....-rogue_pve_dps/ article. The short answer is that there are no magic numbers for any stat, and that the interactions between your stats are complex enough that no one can simply tell you "yes, those stats are enough." Download one of the available spreadsheets and put it to use. Generally, if you have the best pieces of gear available to you at the time, you are ready for whatever content comes next.

5. Should I use X weapon/trinket/piece of gear...?

Maybe or maybe not. It will depend heavily on the gear you already have equipped, your spec, and the buffs you receive in a raid. Download one of the available spreadsheets and put it to use.

6. I do more DPS than the other rogues in my guild. That means X spec is better than theirs, right?

Maybe or maybe not. You cannot necessarily assume that the other rogues in your guild are "doing it right," even if they're specced, geared, enchanted, and gemmed optimally. You also cannot assume that the only difference between you and them is your spec.

7. I do more DPS using X spec/weapon/trinket/piece of gear instead of Y spec/weapon/trinket/piece of gear. That means X is better than Y, right?

Maybe or maybe not. You cannot necessarily tell the difference in power between two specs or pieces of gear simply by comparing two DPS parses. Differences in gear, buffs, abilities used by targets, your performance in each parse, and simply random number generation can affect a DPS parse far more than a single different piece of gear or a different spec. Always evaluate such differences using a spreadsheet, as they contain the most accurate known math for rogue DPS.

8. The spreadsheets say I will do X DPS, but I'm doing a lot less. What am I doing wrong?

There are two possible answers. The first is that you are playing suboptimally. You can find out what you're doing wrong by reading the http://elitistjerks....-rogue_pve_dps/ article.

The second answer is that, even if you're playing optimally, your DPS may not match the spreadsheet's value. This is because the spreadsheet assumes average-case theoretical performance over an infinite time frame in which you spend 100% of the time attacking a stationary target from behind. In reality, WoW combat involves movement, human error, non-infinite durations, and of course, random number generation. Your DPS will necessarily vary from the spreadsheet value.

Why, then, do we use spreadsheets? Because they provide us with the average expected performance of a spec, gear, and buff setup. If such a setup performs well in the theoretical case, then it likely performs well in the real case. In some cases, there may be special reasons why the theoretical case does not generalize; these cases often involve procs or synchronized usage of abilities. Feel free to bring up such points for discussion in this thread.

9. But SK-Gaming/Nihilum/other world-first guild uses X spec/weapon/trinket/piece of gear, so it must be right...?

With all due respect to whichever world-first guild you're comparing against, full DPS optimization is not the reason such guilds become world-first guilds. Just because a rogue in such a guild does something, does not necessarily mean it is the optimal thing to do.

10. Are you sure sword spec works like you described in the PvE DPS article? Because Recount says...

Recount is wrong, and I've posted in the addon's thread on WoWAce to try to get it fixed, but the author didn't seem too keen on it. Either way, the fact of the matter is that sword spec behaves as I have posted as recently as May 29, 2008 (patch 2.4.2). Proof is available in this post.

11. I'm looking for the original Roguecraft 101 thread.

The original thread was closed due to the introduction of the PvE DPS article, which fully replaces Roguecraft 101 as a reference. However, if for some reason you wish to read the original article for nostalgia, or if you wish to find some post that was contained in that thread, you may find it here: http://elitistjerks....guecraft_101_a/

Yep, still a fucking idiot.


#2 madman

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 01:08 PM

In the new PvE thread, it is stated that Executioneer is considered better than Mongoose on MH at the end of T6 content. In the old thread, it says that this was based on a bugged model. Has there been a definitive conclusion on this?

#3 Romerz

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 02:55 PM

What I took it to mean was once your suped up in as much sunwell gear as possible executioner will seem to outshine a single mongoose.

Is this strictly against high armor values or anything relative to having stupidly high stats (sunwell)?

I would assume it follows the same lines as the as apparently this becomes more valuable than the . Is this due to the way that the haste proc loses its value with higher stats or a combination of this and armor penetration becoming more valuable?

Maybe ive just lost the plot eh

#4 momo

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 03:41 PM

I got a question regarding what is the best Energy Usage practices for a rogue.

For example, without 2t4 bonuses, the best SS cycle would be 3s5r (3 cp SnD then 5 cp Rupture), at least thats what most spreadsheet would say.

However I noticed that following this cycle strictly, SnD would drop sometimes. So the question comes to when to SnD early, (or rupture early).
Here is one scenario I can think of: 5 cp finishers would give back 25 energy and 60% chance of another cp. With that in mind, if I don't get the extra cp and assuming no dodges, then it would take 120 additional energy to gain 3 cp and SnD, (The energy to SnD is given by Relentless Strikes). The 120 energy will take 12 seconds to regen if combat potency does not proc. So say if I have 4 cp and 10 seconds left, should I rupture at 4 CP? And maybe even SnD at CP < 2 as well to make sure SnD does not drop? Or should I rupture at 5 cp and maybe SnD at a even lower CP? And how should I recover from a gimped cycle? (If Tea is on CD)

Another question is regarding Shiv Deadly Poison. Say if the boss has 5 stacks of deadly poison on him with 2 seconds left on the timer, and I have 40 energy to spare. (Assuming my CP is < 5, and SnD is not dropping anytime soon), should I shiv or SS? I'm not very math oriented to calculate the payback. And an important thing to factor in is that even with shiv, the deadly might drop if the boss resisted the poison application. (Which leads to, whats the chance of a poison application resist on bosses?)

Factoring in Combat Potency would make these questions more complcated as well, with haste procs, and haste buffs, maybe even sword spec procs.

#5 Jays

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 06:32 PM

Hmm finally a thread where I think this question can be discussed.

This is posited mainly for Sunwell raiding rogues but I'd definitely welcome others opinions as well. Is anyone frustrated with the damage we put out?

A little clarification. And what I mean is in comparison to the other "endgame" top dps classes. (warlocks and hunters imo.) It is often said that we scale the best with buffs etc. But it frustrates me that to compete with these other dps classes that I need to meet a lot of prereq's first. Like proper group makeup, and raid makeup. I rely on a ton of outside factors to be able to do my primary class role. Which is to do damage. In the raid scene that is all we do (outside of a very few fights). We don't provide any raid or group synergy but we rely on raid and group makeup more than any other dps class. Now I'm not one of those who thinks the "fix" is to give us some type of utility. In fact I like the underlying class mechanics of a rogue , hence why I play it.

To brass tacks, do you feel that in the current incarnation of the game that Blizz is able to bring us on par with other damage dealing classes with regards to raiding?

I personally am starting to feel that they can't due to balance issues in other aspects of the game. The biggest balance issue is mainly if they were to increase our "base" dmg it would have ripples in the pvp/arena scene. Adding to this is the "Glaive/Sword" situation. What I mean by that is the weapon imbalance already present wouldn't be fixed in fact it would be exacerbated. Though by WotLK raiding the glaive issue will be gone (I believe) but the sword issue won't be. I understand as well the need to keep different aspects of the game balanced and I don't have a huge problem with it. I'm also not going to expect sweeping class changes. So with the expansion on the horizon and with it a new melee dps class is it time for a reroll?

Just curious on the thoughts of some of you other raiding rogues out there.

#6 Aldriana

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 07:14 PM

In the new PvE thread, it is stated that Executioneer is considered better than Mongoose on MH at the end of T6 content. In the old thread, it says that this was based on a bugged model. Has there been a definitive conclusion on this?


Executioner was previously believed to be superior to Mongoose for many if not most rogues; this was due to a bug in the spreadsheet. However, with the correction to the spreadsheet, it is still true that as you move towards end-Sunwell gear, you pick up enough armor penetration that Executioner - even with the fixed model - does catch up to Mongoose.

Roughly speaking: there are several different viable endgear setups, each of which will be better in some situtations and worse in others. Some of them have as much as 1000 ArPen on them, which increases the value of Executioner enough to be worthwhile. Not all end-Sunwell rogues will gear such that this becomes true, but it will be true for some. In particular, my preferred gear setup uses Mongoose rather than Executioner, with reasoning as follows:

With end-Sunwell gear, one of your trinkets is Blackened Naaru Sliver. For the second trinket slot, WSC and DST prove to be fairly close in quality. In particular, if you're running 1000 ArPen and typical raid debuffs on the boss (for another 4000+ ArPen), it usually works out that if one has Mongoose MH, WSC is slightly better for low-armor bosses and DST is slightly better for high-armor bosses; whereas if you have Executioner MH, WSC is slightly better for high-armor bosses and DST is vastly better for low-armor bosses. Hence, either Executioner or Mongoose is viable, it just reverses the roles of the two trinkets. Thus, the question becomes: is it better to be using WSC on high-armor bosses, or low-armor bosses?

My answer for this is that it's better to be using it on low-armor bosses, because, due to generally not having as many raid debuffs up, trash situations tend to more closely resemble high-armor bosses than low-armor bosses. Even if the mob is low-armor in the first place, trash mobs tend to get fewer armor debuffs. You probably won't have CoR up on it, you may not have Faerie Fire, and Sunders take a larger portion of the mob's life to get up. Thus, I treat these as high-armor opponents when picking gear. And, fundamentally, I like DST better as a trash trinket because it has less hit on it; it makes it easier to stay under the hit cap on trash if you're not getting 21 bonus from your trinket. For instance, my planned gear has 296 hit on it; if I used WSC, this would be bumped up to 317 and I would either need to drop 20 hit via regemming, or be capped out on trash. Whereas if I use DST, 296 is perfectly fine - it bumps up to 316 for bosses (with hit food), and 337 with WSC for low-armor bosses, but is still nicely below the hit cap for trash.

Hence: Executioner is a viable option, however, it's interaction with trinket selection and the nature of the hit cap is such that I think Mongoose is better on the whole. But if one makes different gear selections than the ones I prefer, Executioner can pull ahead of Mongoose and is a reasonable choice, even with the fixed spreadsheet model.

#7 Hanos

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:57 PM

I got a question regarding what is the best Energy Usage practices for a rogue.

For example, without 2t4 bonuses, the best SS cycle would be 3s5r (3 cp SnD then 5 cp Rupture), at least thats what most spreadsheet would say.

However I noticed that following this cycle strictly, SnD would drop sometimes. So the question comes to when to SnD early, (or rupture early).
Here is one scenario I can think of: 5 cp finishers would give back 25 energy and 60% chance of another cp. With that in mind, if I don't get the extra cp and assuming no dodges, then it would take 120 additional energy to gain 3 cp and SnD, (The energy to SnD is given by Relentless Strikes). The 120 energy will take 12 seconds to regen if combat potency does not proc. So say if I have 4 cp and 10 seconds left, should I rupture at 4 CP? And maybe even SnD at CP < 2 as well to make sure SnD does not drop? Or should I rupture at 5 cp and maybe SnD at a even lower CP? And how should I recover from a gimped cycle? (If Tea is on CD)

Another question is regarding Shiv Deadly Poison. Say if the boss has 5 stacks of deadly poison on him with 2 seconds left on the timer, and I have 40 energy to spare. (Assuming my CP is < 5, and SnD is not dropping anytime soon), should I shiv or SS? I'm not very math oriented to calculate the payback. And an important thing to factor in is that even with shiv, the deadly might drop if the boss resisted the poison application. (Which leads to, whats the chance of a poison application resist on bosses?)

Factoring in Combat Potency would make these questions more complcated as well, with haste procs, and haste buffs, maybe even sword spec procs.


Generally once you get into T6 while a 3s/5r cycles may be ideal in theory, a 4s/5r or 5s/5r is more practical and easier to maintain especially if you are dealing with other factors. The advantage of moving to a 5s/5r cycle is 100% of your energy is use for finishers. Also, depending on your trinkets, different rotations can be beneficial. For example if you are using the Ashtongue trinket you would probably be better off moving to 5s/5r because through the use of Energy pooling you can get basically every SS in under the buff. Generally you should be able to maintain a 3s/5r cycle with a decent hit rating, and some Thistle Tea in a pinch, but the ease of running 5s/5r isn't to be discounted.

The main thing you are failing to take into account is Energy pooling, you shouldn't finish every cycle at 0 energy. If you have Rupture up, and 3/4/5 points for S&D, but S&D is still up, you can pool to 70 or so every, then do S&D, then go to 5 points for rupture and pool again. This is especially useful if you are using the Ashtongue trinket or if you are about to pop cooldowns. Energy management is one of the finer points of "rogueing" and is really just something that you have to find what works for you with your gear and play style.

Regarding shiv'ing deadly poison, while in theory it would be a DPS increase, generally it isn't considered to be practical.


Hmm finally a thread where I think this question can be discussed.

This is posited mainly for Sunwell raiding rogues but I'd definitely welcome others opinions as well. Is anyone frustrated with the damage we put out?

A little clarification. And what I mean is in comparison to the other "endgame" top dps classes. (warlocks and hunters imo.) It is often said that we scale the best with buffs etc. But it frustrates me that to compete with these other dps classes that I need to meet a lot of prereq's first. Like proper group makeup, and raid makeup. I rely on a ton of outside factors to be able to do my primary class role. Which is to do damage. In the raid scene that is all we do (outside of a very few fights). We don't provide any raid or group synergy but we rely on raid and group makeup more than any other dps class. Now I'm not one of those who thinks the "fix" is to give us some type of utility. In fact I like the underlying class mechanics of a rogue , hence why I play it.

To brass tacks, do you feel that in the current incarnation of the game that Blizz is able to bring us on par with other damage dealing classes with regards to raiding?

I personally am starting to feel that they can't due to balance issues in other aspects of the game. The biggest balance issue is mainly if they were to increase our "base" dmg it would have ripples in the pvp/arena scene. Adding to this is the "Glaive/Sword" situation. What I mean by that is the weapon imbalance already present wouldn't be fixed in fact it would be exacerbated. Though by WotLK raiding the glaive issue will be gone (I believe) but the sword issue won't be. I understand as well the need to keep different aspects of the game balanced and I don't have a huge problem with it. I'm also not going to expect sweeping class changes. So with the expansion on the horizon and with it a new melee dps class is it time for a reroll?

Just curious on the thoughts of some of you other raiding rogues out there.


Considering I can top the charts on any non-AoE fight, I am actually very happy with where we are. There are some things I would like to see in WotLK, that would make us more valuable in a group, such as either a group buff or a boss debuff or both, but right now we fit exceptionally well into raids, in quantities of 2 or 3. Right now the requirements for a rogue group are pretty tight, more so then any other class, and yes, we excel more with buffs and debuffs then other classes. What I think you are failing to take into account is that other classes require the same levels of synergy, they just don't have to be in the same group.

For example hunters take the same number of buff classes we do if you give them a Feral and a Shaman, they benefit from Faerie Fire, Sunder, CoR, etc, just like we do, only they have the added constraint of stacking Hunter's Mark, and benefiting from other hunters. The same can be said for any class, the synergy might not be entirely in their group, but it is in the raid.

Right now I think we are in excellent shape, especially in Sunwell, fights like M'uru really show where rogues can shine vs the alternatives. I would really like to see us get some sort of party and or raid buff as well as a raid worthy boss debuff. These are things that could be added without affecting PvP, just make them 51 deep in combat, something like a finishing move that increases all damage on target that stacks, or a damage increase when there is a rogue in your group, as long as they are properly positioned in the tree it could leave Arenas untouched and give us added utility in a group situation.

#8 dinesh

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 03:21 PM

Nice article.

My comment: the weapon enchants section mentions WF/DP as ideal, with IP/DP as the replacement if you can't get WF for some reason.

I believe, however, that it has been established that if you have a Stormstrike shaman in your raid, you should not use IP (i.e. if the reason you don't have WF is that you have too many rogues for the melee group, so one gets tossed into another group somewhere). In this case, that rogue must not use IP, as it eats up Stormstrike charges. And the loss of rogue DPS from using sharp stones or righteous coating is more than made up for by the increase in DPS from the shamen (or other stormstrike users).

#9 Sylvertongue

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:30 PM

Originally posted as comments on the PVE-DPS thread:

A few notes- There are very, very few situations (and I have never seen them) where a rogue would do better with an AP gem than an Agi gem. Saying so is somewhat misleading IMO. It's possible that without kings pure AP would do better sometimes, but a raiding rogue is unlikely to see kings so infrequently that gearing with AP (and the loss of crit and minor survivability from dodge) will be superior.

Re: Pally buffs-> Salv->Might->Kings isn't bad, but it's important to take note of your specific environment. Back in Kara with tanks who outgeared me by a tier, I easily could take Might/Kings and use vanish to get through fights. At the moment, I'm taking Salv->Kings->Might due to the huge amounts of raid damage on many fights- the extra HP and dodge has saved me more than once with an out of control add or Naj's raid damage. It also begins to scale closely to might when Agi levels get higher.

Last thing on the WWS- a raid leader should give a dagger rogue a little more leeway than you suggest. Sinister Strike should be considered with Ghostly, etc. as there are times when we cannot be behind our target. Some abilities are mutually exclusive- you should never see backstab and mutilate, or hemo and SS.
p
Finally with shiv- All the craft I've seen on it suggests that it's better to let DP run off. Perhaps at very low gear levels teh 45 DPS from DP will be better than spending that energy on an SS or backstab, but there really aren't encounters at that level where DPS is so critical and it's best not to form bad habits.

Overall, though, great to see the old thread summarized like this. /salute


Also, could we get a link in there to this thread? It'd likely keep people from posting in there (as I did.)

#10 drumbum

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:20 PM

Finally with shiv- All the craft I've seen on it suggests that it's better to let DP run off. Perhaps at very low gear levels teh 45 DPS from DP will be better than spending that energy on an SS or backstab, but there really aren't encounters at that level where DPS is so critical and it's best not to form bad habits.


Well, there are simply too many variables in the equation to come out with a "you definitely should" or "you definitely shouldn't" conclusion for all gear levels. I'm not sure which "theorycraft" you are referencing, but I've done some myself that suggests that it is advantageous at at least some gear levels, but definitely not all.

I think the way the article is worded currently is very accurate based on what we really know and the level of difficulty in modeling such a situation. I'd hardly call it a "bad habit" if it turns out to be a DPS increase at the player's gear level, and shunning the practice simply because "we don't know for sure" is not very responsible.

#11 Luuca

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:29 PM

Wondering if there was a list of projected Rogue Talents for WotLK as are listed in the Warlock thread under Class Mechanics. Also, Thank you all for your research, patience, and great discussions.

#12 Aldriana

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:39 PM

A few notes- There are very, very few situations (and I have never seen them) where a rogue would do better with an AP gem than an Agi gem. Saying so is somewhat misleading IMO. It's possible that without kings pure AP would do better sometimes, but a raiding rogue is unlikely to see kings so infrequently that gearing with AP (and the loss of crit and minor survivability from dodge) will be superior.

Re: Pally buffs-> Salv->Might->Kings isn't bad, but it's important to take note of your specific environment. Back in Kara with tanks who outgeared me by a tier, I easily could take Might/Kings and use vanish to get through fights. At the moment, I'm taking Salv->Kings->Might due to the huge amounts of raid damage on many fights- the extra HP and dodge has saved me more than once with an out of control add or Naj's raid damage. It also begins to scale closely to might when Agi levels get higher.

Last thing on the WWS- a raid leader should give a dagger rogue a little more leeway than you suggest. Sinister Strike should be considered with Ghostly, etc. as there are times when we cannot be behind our target. Some abilities are mutually exclusive- you should never see backstab and mutilate, or hemo and SS.
p
Finally with shiv- All the craft I've seen on it suggests that it's better to let DP run off. Perhaps at very low gear levels teh 45 DPS from DP will be better than spending that energy on an SS or backstab, but there really aren't encounters at that level where DPS is so critical and it's best not to form bad habits.


1) It's true that in basically all 25-man raid situations Agi > AP; however, in low-buff situations - 5 and 10 mans - this isn't as true. When you're doing Karazhan, you probably don't have Kings, you may not even have Might, and even things like Battle Shout and Unleashed Rage are not a given. In these extreme low-buff situations, the advantage of agility (and even hit) relative to AP goes away pretty quickly. So while you're right that in 25 man raids it rarely if ever makes sense to gem AP over agi, it's also true that not everyone is doing 25-man raids, and, as such, saying (as the article does) that in low-buff situations AP can pull ahead is not at all misleading - it's just the simple truth.

2) There are admittedly times when the pally buff ordering can change; but when writing a rule of thumb the possibility that you're doing content with a tank in vastly superior gear can be safely excluded. Like, if you're in a T6 guild and playing your alt rogue with your guild's MT in Karazhan, okay, you might be able to pass on Salv. But that's definitely the exception and not the rule; and the general guideline of "if you have any threat worries at all without salvation, you want to have salvation" is a good one. With regards to Might and Kings; again, there are situation where Kings can be more useful than Might; but even with T6 agility levels, Might is more DPS than Kings by at least 30%. When you work it out, it tends to be more cost effective to itemize more heavily for stamina and get Might than it is to itemize the usual way and get Kings. So again: there are exceptions, but I think the general rule is as stated.

3) I don't think anyone has really done any formal theorycraft on whether Shiving to keep poison stacks up is worthwhile or not; then again, I don't think anyone fully understands the damage computation necessary to justify it, so I think saying either it is or it isn't worthwhile is misleading - we just don't know. And, again, that's more or less what the article says.

All in all: your points are somewhat valid - there is certainly more complexity to most of these situations than what is listed in the article. But, fundamentally, a survey article is not the place for those subtleties - for many of them, you do in fact need to understand the underlying mechanics to know what the right thing to do is, and if you have that level of understanding you're past the point where a survey article helps you as anything more than a quick reference. So I think given that objectives of the article, speaking in terms of 90% cases is probably fine.

Wondering if there was a list of projected Rogue Talents for WotLK as are listed in the Warlock thread under Class Mechanics. Also, Thank you all for your research, patience, and great discussions.


The rogue talents haven't been announced yet, unlike most of the other classes; hence we can't discuss them. I suspect/hope this means that the changes might be a bit more substantive than some of the other classes have received, but we'll have to wait and see.

#13 frmorrison

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 11:28 PM

Wondering if there was a list of projected Rogue Talents for WotLK as are listed in the Warlock thread under Class Mechanics. Also, Thank you all for your research, patience, and great discussions.


The alpha leak did not have Rogue talents in it, but did have Warlock ones.

#14 sp00n

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 12:40 PM

I would really like to see us get some sort of party and or raid buff as well as a raid worthy boss debuff. These are things that could be added without affecting PvP, just make them 51 deep in combat, something like a finishing move that increases all damage on target that stacks, or a damage increase when there is a rogue in your group, as long as they are properly positioned in the tree it could leave Arenas untouched and give us added utility in a group situation.


The old pre-BC weapon skill comes to mind. Increased damage against boss fights due to lower damage reduction on glancing blows, and no effect whatsoever in PvP.
Still wonder why they trashed that mechanic. The idea was great, just itemisation was terrible.

Stopped Playing


#15 Hanos

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:34 PM

The old pre-BC weapon skill comes to mind. Increased damage against boss fights due to lower damage reduction on glancing blows, and no effect whatsoever in PvP.
Still wonder why they trashed that mechanic. The idea was great, just itemisation was terrible.


That is still purely a personal DPS buff, I am looking for something along the lines of a rogue Totem of Wrath or Ferocious Inspiration that not only buffs us, but buffs the rest of our party so that not only is there a reason to bring rogues for our DPS, but because we increase the DPS of everyone else. Think about it, right now in the melee group everyone but an additional rogue buffs the rest of the group, with the addition of Death Knights, you really need to increase the group synergy not just that rogues get, but that they provide in order to hold on to the 2-3 raid slots we have.

#16 RTM

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:50 PM

So over in the Wrath of the Lich King Stuff thread, Chicken has posted some of the datamined skills that rogues will be getting. Not new ones, just upgrades to current ones.

- Eviscerate rank 12: 1 point 497 to 751 damage, 2 points 867 to 1121 damage, 3 points 1237 to 1491 damage, 4 points 1607 to 1861 damage, 5 points 1977 to 2231 damage
- Rupture rank 8: 1 point 324 damage over 8 secs, 2 points 460 damage over 10 secs, 3 points 618 damage over 12 secs, 4 points 798 damage over 14 secs, 5 points 1000 damage over 16 secs.

Not sure if it's a mistake or not, but Rupture Rank 8 is exactly the same as the current rank 7. Assuming it stays the same until release and no new finishers are added that are way better, would this change our preferred finisher? Aside from armor/resilience/etc, I thought one of the reasons Eviscerate isn't used much is because the current highest rank we have comes from level 64. Looks like we'll be getting one closer to level 80 in the expansion, but only 1 "upgrade" to Rupture.

#17 Salminella

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 03:47 PM

the extra attacks granted by Sword Specialization are always performed using your main hand weapon, regardless of which weapon caused the proc. As a result, if you combine Sword Specialization with another weapon specialization and equip a sword in your off hand with the other specialized weapon type in your main hand, your off hand attacks will proc extra main hand attacks which will receive the benefit of your second specialization. By way of example, if you take both fist and sword specializations, and equip a main hand fist with an off hand sword, your extra attacks will gain the 5% increased critical strike chance from your fist specialization.


Not true.

New recount tracks sword special attacks.

Last night in Hyjal I checked the stats of myself(sword/sword) vs. another rogue with badge fist MH/sword OH and his sword specials hits were less then half of mine in damage per attack.

I'll post actual numbers from tonights raid.

#18 sp00n

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:01 PM

That is still purely a personal DPS buff, I am looking for something along the lines of a rogue Totem of Wrath or Ferocious Inspiration that not only buffs us, but buffs the rest of our party so that not only is there a reason to bring rogues for our DPS, but because we increase the DPS of everyone else. Think about it, right now in the melee group everyone but an additional rogue buffs the rest of the group, with the addition of Death Knights, you really need to increase the group synergy not just that rogues get, but that they provide in order to hold on to the 2-3 raid slots we have.


Hm ok, I was more referring to Jays' posting, which is consistent with weapon skill.


Not true.

New recount tracks sword special attacks.

Last night in Hyjal I checked the stats of myself(sword/sword) vs. another rogue with badge fist MH/sword OH and his sword specials hits were less then half of mine in damage per attack.

I'll post actual numbers from tonights raid.


Now, I'm *very* curious to see these results.

Stopped Playing


#19 ge-off

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:12 PM

Not sure if it's a mistake or not, but Rupture Rank 8 is exactly the same as the current rank 7.


Unfortunately, all I can say at this point is that "I've heard tell..." but the way it sounds to me is that they're adding in a new rank of Rupture while leveling 1-70, so the current Rank 7 that we have is actually going to be Rank 8 come release day, whereas Rank 9 will actually be the new Rupture we receive.

#20 Luuca

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:14 PM

That is still purely a personal DPS buff, I am looking for something along the lines of a rogue Totem of Wrath or Ferocious Inspiration that not only buffs us, but buffs the rest of our party so that not only is there a reason to bring rogues for our DPS, but because we increase the DPS of everyone else. Think about it, right now in the melee group everyone but an additional rogue buffs the rest of the group, with the addition of Death Knights, you really need to increase the group synergy not just that rogues get, but that they provide in order to hold on to the 2-3 raid slots we have.


The only "raid dps buff" i can think of that is obtainable for a combat rogue would be Sunder Armor. Does any raiding rogue use Sunder Armor with any regualarity? I'm not top end raiding rogue, and I may be wrong, but I don't even have Sunder Armor on my UI. I've never seen a raiding rogue use it.

It occured to me that Improved Kidney Shot is a current game mechanic that allows for this type of "raid dps buff" from rogues. It clearly does not apply to the non-stunnable raid bosses, and it's duration is too short for any real mobs, but its about right for trash (not that any Combat spec can get it) and definately a part of any PvP Mutilate build. The 9% overall damage increase form all sources would be a nice raid buff if it was somewhere in the Combat tree, and more of a combo-point based raid buff like Sunder Armor.

That is still purely a personal DPS buff, I am looking for something along the lines of a rogue Totem of Wrath or Ferocious Inspiration that not only buffs us, but buffs the rest of our party so that not only is there a reason to bring rogues for our DPS, but because we increase the DPS of everyone else. Think about it, right now in the melee group everyone but an additional rogue buffs the rest of the group, with the addition of Death Knights, you really need to increase the group synergy not just that rogues get, but that they provide in order to hold on to the 2-3 raid slots we have.


In terms of the pure synergy between Death Knights and Rogues, wouldn't it make some sense for there to be a specialized poison application that will qualify as a disease for the purpose of a Death Knight? Thats an easy, cheap fix to make rogues more valuable to Death Knights at least.




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