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#21 Aldriana

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:01 PM

The only "raid dps buff" i can think of that is obtainable for a combat rogue would be Sunder Armor. Does any raiding rogue use Sunder Armor with any regualarity? I'm not top end raiding rogue, and I may be wrong, but I don't even have Sunder Armor on my UI. I've never seen a raiding rogue use it.


Assuming you mean Expose Armor: yes, there are rogues that use it regularly. With the rise of nonwarrior tanks, the value of Imp Expose armor is on the rise as well; many guilds use it on Brutallus, and I've used it on Twin Eredars as well. It's still certainly somewhat of a specialty ability - it's not used in all situations - but it does have it's place.

That is still purely a personal DPS buff, I am looking for something along the lines of a rogue Totem of Wrath or Ferocious Inspiration that not only buffs us, but buffs the rest of our party so that not only is there a reason to bring rogues for our DPS, but because we increase the DPS of everyone else. Think about it, right now in the melee group everyone but an additional rogue buffs the rest of the group, with the addition of Death Knights, you really need to increase the group synergy not just that rogues get, but that they provide in order to hold on to the 2-3 raid slots we have.


I think this is the real problem with rogue's right now. We, as rogues, do good damage assuming proper buffs... but we provide no buffs ourselves, nor any utility. Hence, with the advent of more and more utility meleers, the role of the rogue is increasing marginalized. On a melee friendly fight where you can bring all the utility meleers and a couple of rogues as well, there's no problem; but on a melee unfriendly fight, my experience is that the rogues are among the first to go. For instance, on my guild's first Brutallus kill, in terms of meleers, we had 2 ferals tanking, and then a Fury warrior, an Arms warrior, an Enhancement shaman, a Ret pally, and 3 Rogues - fine. But when it came time to do Felmyst and we wanted fewer melee in, the arms warrior respecced prot and tanks, and we swapped out the 2 ferals and 2 of the rogues, but kept the fury warrior, the enhancement shaman, and the ret pally. And with the advent of the Death Knight, I have to imagine that this situation only becomes even more pronounced. There are now 3 classes (DK, Warrior, Rogue) that can only be melee (either tanking or DPS); if you bring 2 or 3 of each, plus 1 of each utility melee spec (ret pally, prot pally, feral druid, enhancement shaman) you wind up with something like 10 or 11 tanks + melee, which is more than you're going to want on many fights - so something has to give, and the way things stand, I fear that that something would be rogues.

Hence, I think what is necessary - and what I hope they add - is some inherent reason why you want to bring 2 or 3 rogues to every fight. Just doing DPS is not enough anymore, when there are so many other melee classes that do competitive DPS plus provide raid utility. I think we really do need a raid buff or a boss debuff or some sort of reason why you might think about bringing rogues over utility meleers.

The other thing I'd note about the expansion talents so far is that it appears that they're making an effort to make all specs of a given class somewhat useful in a raid environment; the new talents seem designed such that you benefit from having a balance druid in addition to a feral and a resto; a disc priest in addition to a holy and a shadow; and so on. This is not currently at all true of rogues; most rogues are specced combat in the first place, and to the extent that you have ones that aren't (Mutilate, TSH, etc.) they're basically totally interchangable. So another thing they might be looking at doing is giving people a reason to specifically want a Subtlety rogue or an Assassination rogue in raids.

#22 drumbum

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:24 PM

Not true.

New recount tracks sword special attacks.

Last night in Hyjal I checked the stats of myself(sword/sword) vs. another rogue with badge fist MH/sword OH and his sword specials hits were less then half of mine in damage per attack.

I'll post actual numbers from tonights raid.


It sounds like Recount is bugged, then. To be honest it's normally very difficult to tell regular autoattacks and sword specialization attacks apart, because the only difference indicated in the combat log is a message that says that sword specialization procced. The thing is that the message always precedes the attack that triggered sword specialization, so for example, this is roughly what it would look like:

Line 1: You gain an extra attack through Sword Specialization.
Line 2: Your melee swing hits for X damage. (this attack procced sword specialization)
Line 3: Your melee swing hits for Y damage. (this attack is the extra attack)

Indeed, in some situations when several events happen close together, there sometimes will even be other attacks that are reported in between lines 2 and 3, because sword specialization tends to lag behind by a few tenths of a second. Lines 1 and 2 will always have the exact same time stamp, however.

If I had to guess, I would say that Recount is counting line 2 as the sword specialization attacks, and not line 3. This would be consistent with what you just said about fist/sword reporting much lower "sword specialization" values than sword/sword. With sword/sword, line 2 above would just be any autoattack since both hands can proc sword specialization, but for a fist/sword rogue, line 2 is always an offhand attack (since only your offhand can proc sword specialization). This is just speculation, though, and could be some other caveat of Recount I'm not familiar with.

#23 royaljester

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 08:07 PM

I'd agree with aldriana fully. Everything we do, dps, is easily reproduced by several other classes that ALSO buff the rest of the raid in some respect. True, we have one of the highest top end dps projections, but that is only with an immense amount of raid/group buffs. Hunters, using those same buffs and without their legendary bow are already pulling 3k on Brutallus. Has anyone seen a non-glaived rogue pull 3k on brutallus yet? Doubtful. Warlocks require an spriest or shaman and even doing their own CoS can pull 2500-2600 easily with the proper gear. Rogues need a plethora a buffs, mostly group buffs, to attain that level of dps currently, so our spot isn't safe.

I like the points Ald brought up about which kind of buff. I can see them allowing room for Mutilate back into raiding, but I doubt Subtlety makes a comeback. Giving rogues specialized poisons (increase bleed dmg, inscreases holy dmg/shad dmg/fire/frost/nature any dmg, giving group a haste or ap buff of some sort) would go a long ways of maintaining our identiy while still giving us utility.

Personally, I'd like to see some kind of group/raid buff that is clearly a rogues doing. By that, I mean a debuff to the boss mainly. Giving rogues the ability, after a crit, to provide haste to a group, while excellent, would seem to be more of a fury warrior or enhancement shaman buff, not a rogue. Where as, giving the boss vulnrability to certain types of damage, to shouts even (produce more threat by a tanks shouts) or allowing imp kidney to work on a boss, even without the stun being present. Maybe I'm asking for too specialized a raid/group buff, but I feel like giving us just ANYTHING will only serve to satisfy for the time, and not in the long run.

#24 Aldriana

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 08:20 PM

Well, it's not so much that Subtlety needs to "make a comeback", per se; the framework is already there. Hemo is, specifically, a boss debuff providing utility; the problem is simply that it's a small enough buff that even if it didn't cost you *any* personal DPS, it'd be barely worth worrying about - it's not like you're going to make someone respec TSH because your regular Hemo rogue is missing that particular day (as opposed to Ret Pally, Enh Shaman, or DPS Warrior, where you very well might do exactly that). But if they increased the power of TSH - say, make it +42 damage to all attacks, melee, ranged, or spell, with no limit on charges, just a duration - well, now it's starting to sound like something people might reasonably worry about having in the raid. The notion is already there - it's just not powerful enough.

#25 jonnnney

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 09:28 PM

One thing that could be done, though it may be a bit too powerful, is to make it so combat potency and find weakness talents applied to the whole group instead of just the rogue who proc'ed them. It is a nice simple fix, they could do it with an improved CP or FW later in the talent tree and it allows rogues to buff each other or the melee group as a whole. Especially if the FW buff stacked

#26 royaljester

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 09:34 PM

Well, I'd agree in some aspects Sinborn, except that you're very similar to a rogue dps with the new 40/21 spec (double iceblock-Fire). You have amazing survivability on fights like brut/felmyst/kalecgos while still putting up warlock numbers. True, your aoe is less than stellar when SoC is brought into the equation, but you're still really good, quality, almost agro free (if the fight allows a full invis cycle) class, similar to a rogue.

At that same time, you provide quality cc on trash/bosses (M'uru) and give food/water/int to the raid (Yea, not great buffs, but there none the less). In the end, you give more than a rogue in utility while being very similar to a rogue in damage considering the survivability and agro dump. In the end though, I think almost every mage would like to see the same utility or "need" that a warlock has been show in a raid. So in the end, you're probably right, we could both use something worthwhile in the raid utility buff department :(.



That would be a great buff Ald. Being able to provide a +dmg taken debuff on a boss that affected either all dmg or a majority of dmg would be immense in the utility department, especially if they could confine it to Mut or Hemo. Allowing either of those spec's raiding room would def raise Rogue morale overall, as well as give us a little job security.

#27 BlackCadian

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 10:02 AM

One thing that could be done, though it may be a bit too powerful, is to make it so combat potency and find weakness talents applied to the whole group instead of just the rogue who proc'ed them. It is a nice simple fix, they could do it with an improved CP or FW later in the talent tree and it allows rogues to buff each other or the melee group as a whole. Especially if the FW buff stacked


I must say I like that idea, particulary if it'd apply to Find Weakness. I personally find Combat Swords soooo boring, especially since 99% of all raiding rogues are specced that way. I'm actually considering going back to CDaggers which, suprisingly, I found more fun than Swords.

But back on topic, my preferred solution to the problem at hand would be something unique to the rogue class that does not encompass any kind of group/raid buff. I never really saw the Rogue class as a buff class, to me it's just not rogue-ish and would be more of a band-aid. What that solution would be I don't know, but I'm sure Blizz could find something cool and fitting for us.
At the end of the day I'm a rogue, I don't care about buffing other people, I want to destroy my enemies and then quietly melt back into the shadows, if you get what I mean.
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#28 Capek

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:17 PM

How about combining the hemo debuff into sinister strike?

#29 Hanos

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 02:23 PM

At the end of the day I'm a rogue, I don't care about buffing other people, I want to destroy my enemies and then quietly melt back into the shadows, if you get what I mean.


The problem is if your value to the raid doesn't justify bringing you to the raid, then it is kind of hard to do that. As I said, something like the Hunter Buffs (Ferocious Inspiration or Expose Weakness) or Enhancement's Unleash Rage would be ideal, where it is simply based on us being on target, so it doesn't become an issue of which rogue is going to use the +Fire Poison and who is using the + Shadow, and who is doing whatever else. Basically if it is inline with most of the other melee synergy buffs/debuffs you won't even have to worry about it beyond spec.

#30 astearns

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 04:11 PM

A raid or party DPS buff isn't the only path to raid slot justification. Abilities like Cloak of Shadows or Vanish could be extended - cloaking someone else, resetting someone else aggro, or some other new useful trick. Hunters have good DPS and some DPS buffs, but you bring a hunter for Misdirect. We need something indispensable - whether that's a buff or a trick doesn't really matter.

#31 tïara

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 04:41 PM

I, i aggre with most of the last post here, but i think that we need to bring a buff on haste which is important for us but also for must of melee spec and at least it's the Talent everybody want's to up at this time.

so they must increase shs spec with a kind of ultimate haste talent + hémo débuff it became really powerfull for a 25 men raid

i'm 15/41/5 daggers

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ps: apologize fro my poor english, unfortunatly i'm french :)

#32 Lokthra

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 04:52 PM

A raid or party DPS buff isn't the only path to raid slot justification. Abilities like Cloak of Shadows or Vanish could be extended - cloaking someone else, resetting someone else aggro, or some other new useful trick. Hunters have good DPS and some DPS buffs, but you bring a hunter for Misdirect. We need something indispensable - whether that's a buff or a trick doesn't really matter.


This would be pretty interesting to see. Give rogues the ability to "step" to a friendly player. This teleports the rogue to the player (similar to shadow step) and also allows certain abilities used by the rogue to also effect the stepped player if used within a short time.

Example: Warlock A is about to pull aggro. Rogue A step's to Warlock A, uses vanish, then returns to combat with the boss. Both player's lose aggro.

This would require some tuning though, possibly lowered effects on the recieving target (chaining stepped evasions on a tank could be slightly overpowered).

Also, an Unleashed Rage type ability for rogues, one for each tree, would be a nice way to increase our viability. Deep assassination could have a "presence" that increases crit chance for group members every time the rogue crits a special attack, stacking up to 10%. Deep combat could have a similar presence to Increase group members attack speed by 1% on a chance on offhand hit, stacking up to 10%. Subtlety could have a stacking armor pen presence (almost like a group version of serrated blades, that stacks like, 50-100 armor penetration every time the rogue does something. They would obviously require balancing (so each one provides similar overall dps bonuses, and similar scaling). This could not only encourage multiple types of rogues in groups (maybe each presence can only be on once, so more different spec rogues = more presences applied), but also give rogues more raid utility.

#33 Eyegore

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 05:59 PM

Giving rogues a direct buffing ability seems to me to be counter to the intended theme or "feel" of the class, i.e. sneeky, underhanded, literally backstabbing. Generously buffing people seems to be playing a bit too well with others for a "rogue". If anything I would expect improved boss debuffing abilities like a more useful hemo, or in keeping with their recent buff to mutilate (assuming that indicates the desire to push assassination into the, or at least an acceptable, high end dps spec) something interesting in that tree. Perhaps a talent to add an armor pen debuff to the mutilate attack that stacks with sunder (as if the attack had penetrated or damaged the targets armor).

As it stands currently rogues are the best mele buff sponge, standing on the shoulders of our buffing but non aggro dropping compatriots to selfishly leap to the top of the dps meters. And this strikes me as a perfectly useful, as well as thematically appropriate role, for the rogue class. As long as this remains true in future I would not expect the addition of a buffing ability to be necessary to justify having rogues in a raid.

#34 Aldriana

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 06:08 PM

I agree that a direct buff is not precisely in flavor, and that a boss debuff is probably a more likely direction to go. But we'll just have to wait and see how things work out.

I disagree, however, that being purely a buff sponge is sufficient to guarantee rogue spots in raids. It's fine so long as you can afford to bring 6+ melee to a fight, so you can have a couple of buff sponges on top of all the buffers in the first place; but on fights with limited room for melee (for whatever reason), it becomes more important to bring the buffers than the buffees. You need to have the DPS warrior and the enhancement shaman around for buffs before it makes sense to bring the rogues to use those buffs, and with the utility of ret paladins it's not uncommon to bring one of those before a rogue as well. Fundamentally: there are certain melee DPSers that are necessary or at least highly useful - classes that make you say "we actively want to have an X in the raid". Rogues are not one of them; rogues are more "we have extra spots in the raid that can be used on melee DPS, so we'll bring some rogues to fill things up". The fact that we're very very good in that role is nice; but it would also be nice to be actually useful/necessary for raids, rather than just being highly effective filler.

#35 Valustria

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 07:15 PM

I agree that raid buffing doesn't seem to fit the style of rogues. I definitely like the idea of different poison types increasing vulnerability to different types of damage -- I think poisons could be a lot more diverse than they are.

Something else that I think could contribute to a rogue's value is more damage, but not more base damage... I'm thinking something like bonus damage against a target that is calculated increasingly based on the amount of damage the rogue himself has already done to it. It would obviously require some fine-tuning, but what if rogues had a talent that enabled them to deal something like 1% more damage for every 75,000 damage the rogue has dealt to that target? It would hardly break anything in PvP, but against boss mobs you are hitting for hundreds of thousands of damage, it means that as other classes are running out of steam, you are becoming more and more valuable. Of course, threat generation will become more of an issue, so you'd better save your Vanish to reset aggro later in the fight. Anyway, that ratio 1% : 75k damage is just something I pulled out of my ass to give people an idea what I was thinking. Like I said, I'm sure this kind of talent would require some serious tuning to ensure that rogues are doing enough extra damage to earn their place in raids, but not so much more that leaders are stacking rogues to the exclusion of other physical DPS classes.

#36 Left

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:29 PM

I agree that raid buffing doesn't seem to fit the style of rogues. I definitely like the idea of different poison types increasing vulnerability to different types of damage -- I think poisons could be a lot more diverse than they are.

Something else that I think could contribute to a rogue's value is more damage, but not more base damage... I'm thinking something like bonus damage against a target that is calculated increasingly based on the amount of damage the rogue himself has already done to it. It would obviously require some fine-tuning, but what if rogues had a talent that enabled them to deal something like 1% more damage for every 75,000 damage the rogue has dealt to that target? It would hardly break anything in PvP, but against boss mobs you are hitting for hundreds of thousands of damage, it means that as other classes are running out of steam, you are becoming more and more valuable. Of course, threat generation will become more of an issue, so you'd better save your Vanish to reset aggro later in the fight. Anyway, that ratio 1% : 75k damage is just something I pulled out of my ass to give people an idea what I was thinking. Like I said, I'm sure this kind of talent would require some serious tuning to ensure that rogues are doing enough extra damage to earn their place in raids, but not so much more that leaders are stacking rogues to the exclusion of other physical DPS classes.


Building off of that idea and the idea that debuffs are more in the character of the rogue class than buffs (which I agree with), I have the following three (and a half) ideas:

1] A rogue talent that would cause the rogue's special attacks (or special attack crits, or finishers) to reduce the target's chance to dodge and parry. It makes sense, as a rogue already hinders and cripples their targets in order to win the fight (think "Blade Turning", crippling poison, wound poison, and mind numbing poison). This provides a significant buff to melee attackers (and tanks) by way of a debuff on the target. It also isn't a truly significant PvP ability, as most casters (read, rogue targets) already don't really dodge or parry, while rogues could use some PvP buffing against the classes that do dodge and parry (warriors and paladins, mostly). This would be a good fit in the combat tree.

2a] A rogue talent that provides a stacking debuff every time the rogue successfully lands a direct damage finishing move. Say, the debuff increases physical damage against the target by x% (say 1%) of the rogue's agility (or AP), stacking up to 20 times. For a rogue with 700 agility, this is a 7 damage boost for 1 stack. 7 damage is a relatively insignificant physical damage boost by itself, but stacked to 20 it provides a 140 physical damage boost to every attack. In PvP, it is relatively insignificant, as at most the rogue will get 3-4 damaging finishing moves off on his/her target before either dying or winning the fight. In a typical boss fight, though, this ability stacks up as the fight progresses, enhancing all physical DPS as the fight goes on. For a gorefiend-type fight, this won't stack much beyond 10 or so, but for a very long fight it would get to 20 and hold steady. This might be a good fit in the subtlety tree.

2b] Alternatively, just adapt Hemo to have the effect described in 2a: Hemo applies a debuff that increases physical damage done to the target by y, lasting 15 seconds and stacking up to 20 times. Then you just have to adjust "y" to make sense. It could either be based on AP or Agility, or be a flat value that goes up as you train higher ranks of Hemo.

3] Judging by the number of poison-related talents, you would think the Assassination tree is all about poisons. Too bad that even with all those talents poisons still aren't very important. I'd like to see a "shadow embrace" or "mangle" style debuff such as either "Your deadly poison also increases all nature damage taken by the target by 2/4/6%" or "Your wound poison also increases the effect of all bleeds on the target by 5/10/15%". Other options would be good as well. (As an aside, I'd also like to see an assassination target that increases your poison damage by a percentage of your attack power.)

#37 Xaoc

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:39 PM

With the addition of new debuffs to targets, I dont think adding another debuff to a target is a wise idea. DKs and Druids will both be getting diseases, and DKs will probably be able to use additional debuffs as well. I would like to see a slight buff to poisons (namely Deadly, but can be a talent that adds the effect to all poisons) that add a dmg increase. With Deadly/Wound, it would be 1% physical dmg per application, stacking to 5% (this would deter stacking rogues). With Mind Numbing, add a 3~5% magic dmg (obviously if this was a talent option, it would allow the dmg increase, but the cast time increase wouldnt have an affect on bosses). I think someone mentioned this before, but add a poison that stacks with Sunder, decreasing armor, stacking up to 5. I agree with what's been said so far about adding group buffs to Rogues isnt in line with our 'lore'. I also dont want to have 10 new poisons that get added, all of which add to an increasingly difficult to maintain debuff cap (which is also something they need to work on, but is out of the scope of this discussion).

EDIT: Left, you post too fast. Something along those lines with his 3rd point, but again, I'd like to see something -other- than an additional debuff slot. If it gets to be a debuff, Blizz would most likely make it a low priority debuff, and it would be constantly kicked off, rendering it useless. Combining the debuff into the poisons just makes a little bit more sense.

#38 Tercero

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:45 PM

I agree that raid buffing doesn't seem to fit the style of rogues. I definitely like the idea of different poison types increasing vulnerability to different types of damage -- I think poisons could be a lot more diverse than they are.

Something else that I think could contribute to a rogue's value is more damage, but not more base damage... I'm thinking something like bonus damage against a target that is calculated increasingly based on the amount of damage the rogue himself has already done to it. It would obviously require some fine-tuning, but what if rogues had a talent that enabled them to deal something like 1% more damage for every 75,000 damage the rogue has dealt to that target? It would hardly break anything in PvP, but against boss mobs you are hitting for hundreds of thousands of damage, it means that as other classes are running out of steam, you are becoming more and more valuable. Of course, threat generation will become more of an issue, so you'd better save your Vanish to reset aggro later in the fight. Anyway, that ratio 1% : 75k damage is just something I pulled out of my ass to give people an idea what I was thinking. Like I said, I'm sure this kind of talent would require some serious tuning to ensure that rogues are doing enough extra damage to earn their place in raids, but not so much more that leaders are stacking rogues to the exclusion of other physical DPS classes.


I agree about the poison direction. It wouldn't be outside the lore of Rogue or realm of reason to spec deeper into poisons that make the target more vulnerable to additional damage types and sources - ie frost, fire, shadow, nature, etc - and allow the poison mastery rogue to spec into a specialized poison talent to increase a specific kind of damage.

Of course this is all wishful contemplation.

I'd love to see some of the Rogue class quest lines get revisited with some lasting usable reward at the end... Maybe make Ravenhodlt reputation significant in some way.

#39 Eyegore

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 09:40 PM

I disagree, however, that being purely a buff sponge is sufficient to guarantee rogue spots in raids. It's fine so long as you can afford to bring 6+ melee to a fight, so you can have a couple of buff sponges on top of all the buffers in the first place; but on fights with limited room for melee (for whatever reason), it becomes more important to bring the buffers than the buffees. You need to have the DPS warrior and the enhancement shaman around for buffs before it makes sense to bring the rogues to use those buffs, and with the utility of ret paladins it's not uncommon to bring one of those before a rogue as well. Fundamentally: there are certain melee DPSers that are necessary or at least highly useful - classes that make you say "we actively want to have an X in the raid". Rogues are not one of them; rogues are more "we have extra spots in the raid that can be used on melee DPS, so we'll bring some rogues to fill things up". The fact that we're very very good in that role is nice; but it would also be nice to be actually useful/necessary for raids, rather than just being highly effective filler.


Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more. There will always be fights that prove unfavorable to certain classes, not always just mele (mages on bloodboil springs to mind off hand). And in a fight that limits the number of mele you can bring taking the rogues along while dropping the buffers certainly makes less sense than does the reverse. In the general case however once you have your enhancement shaman, dps warrior, and retadin siting in a group no other class brings the raid as a whole as much dps as a rogue in those last 2 spots. Unless that changes I don't see the class really has that much to worry about. Although certainly if they decide to make every fight in wrath mele unfriendly that may not be the case... so that comes down to wait and see.

I do like the idea of expanding the scope of what poisons can do. May I suggest an acidic poison that melts armor? They have already given a rogue one of the best armor pen abilities going... only to make it unusable in most cases by not having it stack with sunder. With the proliferation of armor penetration of a stat in the later half of BC here I would not be surprised if they do not keep finding ways to work it in in future.

edit* not to hit the same note again with my previous armor pen suggestion, but I see the idea that they would introduce rogue/caster synergy to be a bit odd and a definite departure from how they currently have mele classes that do buff buff other mele (and similarly for casters). Also the anti-avoidance idea which I really like as well was taken ;)

#40 Corbet

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 06:30 AM

I know everyone says to "trust the spreadsheets" but I must bring something up: Madness of the Betrayer vs. Ashtongue Talisman. Is Ashtongue really that much better compared to Madness? I use the spreadsheets for my gear choices but quite a few Rogues in my guild insist that Madness is better.




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