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Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion


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#3741 Mijae

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 11:12 PM

The real big win is that you can get the pvp gear before you go into Naxx, which means you're doing Naxx progression with Naxx-level gear. That's quite strong, and puts druids in quite a good position as progression tanks. If that pattern holds for T8 and 9, it will make them very strong.


This isn't really true. Guilds will be pushing Naxx long before you will be able to get a set of PvP gear, probably before the next arena season even starts. Even for top arena teams it still takes time to acquire points. If you saved up honor you will be able to get a few of those pieces and can still grind out others fairly easily. Perhaps in later tiers when points can be saved ahead and a full set bought within a week or two it might be an issue. This is also assuming arena sets coincide with PvE tiers and are released at the same time. Through most of BC PvP gear trailed behind PvE tiers though.

Another large consideration will be set bonuses. Since T7 are junk for bear, it makes sense to ignore them. However, maybe they'll actually give us something useful at some point. Of course, then they go against their concept of making non-tier pieces good alternatives.

#3742 kalbear

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 11:21 PM

Another large consideration will be set bonuses. Since T7 are junk for bear, it makes sense to ignore them. However, maybe they'll actually give us something useful at some point. Of course, then they go against their concept of making non-tier pieces good alternatives.

This is all true, but for the non-5 piece set it's immaterial. Most people will be able to get these pieces close to immediately since they require rating but not arena points. And of course, they don't count towards any set bonus.

The ilvl 200 gear is also best in slot for pre-naxx gear for many of the slots as well, which is helpful for gearing up to do Naxx, but isn't as big an advantage.

#3743 TheNameLessOne

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 11:38 PM

Also depending on team size it is trivial to get 500 points a week (assuming you are half way decent). Why deprive a rogue or kitty druid a clear upgrade for something that you are guaranteed to trash in two to three weeks?

This is why adding some sort of attack power to mitigation is need so the PVP gear of equal item level is always inferior to the PVE equivalent. Basing anything off stam (which is what iLotP changes would do) just compounds the problem and makes it even worse.

#3744 Monedula

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 12:59 AM

Are druid tanks the only ones with this problem? There are no other tanking classes that would favor PVP vs PVE gear?
If so what are those classes suggesting?

#3745 kalbear

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 01:11 AM

Are druid tanks the only ones with this problem? There are no other tanking classes that would favor PVP vs PVE gear?
If so what are those classes suggesting?

For the other classes, pvp gear has advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that it helps get to uncrittable faster - sort of like what it used to be for druids. The disadvantages is that it has no avoidance worth anything and only marginal shield block. It's basically all DPS gear at that point - DPS gear with a lot of stamina. That's not nearly as good for other tanking classes as it is for a druid, and unlike a druid they have choices with respect to wearing dps gear for tanking.

Basically, it's better than the equivalent dps plate for tanking, but much worse than the equivalent tanking plate. If druids had tanking leather that'd likely be better. Since we don't, pvp is it.

#3746 Solux

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 01:46 AM

Hi, everyone, like a few others I've been lurking here watching the discussion, without being sure I had anything substantial to contribute.

I've seen a lot of discussion here about how to scale as a tank in Rogue gear and I'd be happiest to see those options which see us taking loot from a variety of sources to increase our opportunity to pick up loot and our ease of getting vital items, which has been something of a problem in BC, with having to wait for a specific staff item to drop to give us a real weapon upgrade.

The discussion of mitigation in the form of Time To Live has been illuminating for what gear I'll be needing to tank in for the future, but what I haven't seen is a discussion of what else we can do to improve our situation if this gear isn't provided and tanking becomes a matter of why we should be taken as a tank, when others can do a better job with their stats. In other words, how to convince Raid leaders it is worth taking us, when our spots are not already cemented. I'm well aware this is a perpetual argument and that skill and raid-integrating personality plays a large part in this; what I haven't seen is a comparison of how fast a boss goes down when we're tanking. We have arguably got a fair damage boost on the other classes even with Lich King and the other classes catching up on us for damage, so perhaps we need to be thinking of our contribution not only in terms of Time To Live (TTL), but also in terms of Time To Boss Death (TTBD), which is an important factor when racing Enrage timers with progression gear and is a real reason to look at taking a Druid tank. It doesn't fix the itemisation issues, but it does mean a TTL/TTBD equation may become relevant. If a boss dies faster when we tank it, is our mitigation worth slightly more to us in the greater context of preserving healers' mana pools and potion cooldowns, etc? Any way we can make complex issues of our class simpler to explain to non-Druids and reduce the perception our "nerfs" make us "inferior" tanks now is a good one. I honestly have no idea what sort of a difference TTBD makes for us.

I fully support the moves suggested to give us reason to stack DPS gear in our armor slots, since that's what Blizzard wants us to have access to, I also support it in terms of giving us a decision to make for the Trinket/ring slots. Choice is good and having access to DPS gear in these slots allowing us more opportunities for drops to improve our tanking is a good thing and means we can be firm in leaving the parry/block/defense items for our tanking brethren inother classes. Improving multiple tanks on one Boss kill is something which would have proved remarkably difficult in BC and if we can somehow come out as a Tank/DPS hybrid, yes all the other classes will whine a bit, but we will pick up the things Blizzard is intending for us. Also, nothing will really have changed. In BC, we already had a significant damage advantage over other tanks and it helps reduce my most hated aspect of BC, running around with 3-4 bags of gear in instances just in case. Thank you to the people who've suggested the mechanics by which we could gain noticeable benefit out of stacking DPS gear through AP, Agility, armour and crit.

As for the improved LotP idea to give us extra health on a crit, we already have this mechanic in place with the Innervate glyph, where we get a proportion of the mana ourselves. I know this mechanic changed recently, but it can clearly be done to benefit the caster. Whether it can be done to benefit only the caster as proposed or it's not as imbalanced as we might think compared to the paladin equivalent is difficult to say. Differences between the classes are vital to the shape of the game and giving Tanking druids a bonus to their capacity to heal themselves is very muchin the spirit of Frenzied regeneration. Hmm, that's a point. We could potentially remove the cap to LotP while Frenzied Regen is up, to increase the use of our panic button and enhance something we already have use from. May lead to us needing a slightly different cooldown for Frenzied Regen, but it's a workable idea.

#3747 Fasc

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 02:45 AM

For the other classes, pvp gear has advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that it helps get to uncrittable faster - sort of like what it used to be for druids. The disadvantages is that it has no avoidance worth anything and only marginal shield block. It's basically all DPS gear at that point - DPS gear with a lot of stamina. That's not nearly as good for other tanking classes as it is for a druid, and unlike a druid they have choices with respect to wearing dps gear for tanking.

Basically, it's better than the equivalent dps plate for tanking, but much worse than the equivalent tanking plate. If druids had tanking leather that'd likely be better. Since we don't, pvp is it.



This and to what someone above saying that the Naxxramas gear will be more readily available, I'll agree with you on the point of the main pieces of head/shoulders/chest/legs/gloves since those require very high ratings to get the Deadly. However, I know at least the belt only required honor points and a 1640ish rating to get the 213 item lvl slot item. Considering I won't be jumping straight into 25-man Naxxramas, that's quite a nice upgrade especially since I won't need anything else until Ulduar unless they make PvP gear unappealing in some meaningful way.

As for killing the boss faster, other than going for record times, achievements, or beating enrage timers (the only important one) I will almost always favor living over threat. If the boss dies at 2:10 instead of 2:30, it won't make a lick of difference to me really.

#3748 Qaatar

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 02:58 AM

I think the only other viable alternative to this pvp-gear dilemma would be to reintroduce Int as a major stat on the pvp gear. It would eat up more of the item budget, and at the same time, quell most of the qq'ing about feral mana pools. Since the mana pool issue is pretty insignificant for us in a pve environment, and really is only an issue in pvp, I think it would be perfect. Of course, this means that they would have to retool all of the pvp feral gear, but I don't think that it would be such a huge problem.

#3749 david0925

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 03:01 AM

To be perfectly honest, they should either
1.Add int to ALL leather gear that's basically "free" (this was true for most of druid armor pieces in TBC where a small amount of intellect on the gear cost basically nothing)
or
2.Add int to all feral tier pieces- sure this will make it more desired than offpieces, but it's not like it's not desired in the first place due to set bonuses anyway, heh.

#3750 Bluegene

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 03:27 AM

Another difference between bear charge and cat charge is that Feral Charge - Cat doesn't put you into combat (not sure if is intended or bug). It is a bit anonying when i was farming low level mob for timbermaw rep, kitty charge to a mob and see them still walking away in daze ignoring you.

I actually made a macro as follow ~

/cast feral charge - cat
/stopattack
/cast prowl
/cast pounce

Hit the macro twice fast and you can get a quick kitty charge+stun combo if you start as non stealth and not in combat, might be useful in arena too.

#3751 Ja7us

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 03:51 AM

To be perfectly honest, they should either
1.Add int to ALL leather gear that's basically "free" (this was true for most of druid armor pieces in TBC where a small amount of intellect on the gear cost basically nothing)
or
2.Add int to all feral tier pieces- sure this will make it more desired than offpieces, but it's not like it's not desired in the first place due to set bonuses anyway, heh.


I really don't think this will be much of an issue. They've already stated that ferals will likely get -80% mana cost from shapeshifting in a PvP build, and with the mana back from LotP, that means you'll only be going OOM if you're using lots of expensive heals. That sounds about right to me.

Or did you mean for PvE? I've never had mana problems in PvE, except for when powershifting was really in vogue, and even then, not to a worrying degree.

#3752 Qaatar

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 04:06 AM

Or, instead of the -50% mana idea, they could just reinstitute int on the pvp gear. Subtract some stam and agi, convert it into int, and boom, two birds with one stone. The changes would rebalance the pvp gear so that it would be roughly equal or slighty inferior to similar pve counterparts in terms of tanking stats, and thus, some of us ferals won't feel guilty about not pvp'ing in order to min/max for slightly better tanking gear.

#3753 Rannasha

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 07:58 AM

Allright, there seemed to be a significant majority in favor of splitting up the FDM in a cat and a bear thread. I've poked Kaubel and asked if the EJ moderators had any strong preferences; the answer was no. So there are now 2 shiny new threads up, one for cats, one for bears. I suggest that we move the discussion to those threads so that we can part with this thread and the old FDM.

Note that the intro-posts of the 2 threads aren't complete yet, partially because alot of the theorycrafting hasn't been 100% fleshed out yet. But if anyone has any comments or suggestions for the opening posts, please send me a PM.

Thanks to dukes for maintaining the first Feral Druid Megathread and allowing me to use his opening posts as a basis for the new threads.

#3754 Malazaar

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 12:07 PM

Or, instead of the -50% mana idea, they could just reinstitute int on the pvp gear. Subtract some stam and agi, convert it into int, and boom, two birds with one stone. The changes would rebalance the pvp gear so that it would be roughly equal or slighty inferior to similar pve counterparts in terms of tanking stats, and thus, some of us ferals won't feel guilty about not pvp'ing in order to min/max for slightly better tanking gear.


Currently, we are pretty much the only hybrid class that really can't apply a hybrid playing style. Retadins and Enhancement Shamans both have the possibility of healing themselves in a) their dps 'form' without having to shift or something like that B) get instant heals through procs and c) have a significant amount of spellpower so that their heals actually mean something.

While we do get some healing power through nurturing instincts it still feels to me that healing yourself IN combat is a lost cause as a feral. So unless that does change somehow, i don't see any reason why i should need any int on my gear.

You won't go oom from shifting with -80% shiftcost and an occasional cyclone doesn't really cost much mana.

#3755 Abradix

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 02:24 PM

Can't apply a hybrid playing style? We're the one class in the game that can reasonably both tank and DPS with the same spec and the same gear set. Will a bear spec do very impressive cat DPS and vice versa? No, but enhancement shaman and ret paladins do pretty pathetic healing too (Not counting the current Judgement of Light of course). We're a tank/DPS hybrid, they're a DPS/heal Hybrid, but there's no way you can claim ferals do not have a hybrid possibility.

#3756 Malazaar

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 02:32 PM

Can't apply a hybrid playing style? We're the one class in the game that can reasonably both tank and DPS with the same spec and the same gear set. Will a bear spec do very impressive cat DPS and vice versa? No, but enhancement shaman and ret paladins do pretty pathetic healing too (Not counting the current Judgement of Light of course). We're a tank/DPS hybrid, they're a DPS/heal Hybrid, but there's no way you can claim ferals do not have a hybrid possibility.


Sorry that i didn't make clearer that i was refering to a PvP situation and i meant healing / dps hybrids. You are right that you can both use Tank and DPS, so in that department we can play hybrid.

However, you won't ever need int on your gear to play bear/cat hybrid, iLotP should more than adequately cover the shifting costs - the only way to spend considerably more mana and thus need int is by either healing or nuking.

#3757 Joshzoladz

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 10:03 PM

Is there a spreadsheet or character builder for 80 Tank spec druid? I've seen resto, but no tank spec.

#3758 Astrylian

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 10:37 PM

Yes, there is, Rawr. However, I suggest you wait a few hours, we're releasing a big new version with support for level 80 in just a few hours. I'll post here when it's up.
Rawr!

#3759 Soloman

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 11:17 AM

Another difference between bear charge and cat charge is that Feral Charge - Cat doesn't put you into combat (not sure if is intended or bug). It is a bit anonying when i was farming low level mob for timbermaw rep, kitty charge to a mob and see them still walking away in daze ignoring you.

I actually made a macro as follow ~

/cast feral charge - cat
/stopattack
/cast prowl
/cast pounce

Hit the macro twice fast and you can get a quick kitty charge+stun combo if you start as non stealth and not in combat, might be useful in arena too.


It was designed that way on purpose, as it allows you to catcharge and use an opener while stealthed.

If it put you/target in combat the second you charged your stealth would break and you couldn't use the opener.

#3760 Pharmacon

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 02:56 PM

It was designed that way on purpose, as it allows you to catcharge and use an opener while stealthed.

If it put you/target in combat the second you charged your stealth would break and you couldn't use the opener.


Due to travel time of the charge though it comes off rather clunky. Often by the time I am at the mob they have moved forward out of my hit box. Plus with the dazed effect the person knows you are there (PvP issue) and doesn't last long enough to be useful in my experience. It's a good deal less useful than shadowstep as well due to the min distance problem. Design wise it makes some sense but I don't see the cat version as a charge as much as a pounce (name already take of course) which to me would make no difference on distance or if you are facing the target.




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