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Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion


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#21 Xelopheris

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 01:26 AM

Xelopheris, do you no longer think omen of clarity will be useful to ferals at level 80 or did you just forget to include it in your talents? I would think the threat/dps boost of clearcasting would definitely be worth the one talent point it takes out of the feral combat tree.


Erm, I completely missed it to be honest. Take a point out of feral aggression for it.

#22 Valerian

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 03:32 AM

Berserk is also 2 abilities, one for Cat Form (5min cooldown) and one for Bear Form (2min cooldown) with the Bear Form version increasing health by 30% and not 20%. I'm sort of hoping that they will combine the 2 and add a spell cost reduction for caster form as I suspect that if you shiftout you loose the buff.

Ferocious Bite's extra damage now scales with Attack Power (it was showing at 11 dmg per energy at 4768 Attack Power with Rank 6 with the lowest being 3.5 dmg per energy at 0 Attack Power which would give about 0.0015 - 0.0157 additional dmg per attack power per energy).


5 min cooldown for Cat form makes sense (same as adrenaline rush). But 2 min cooldown on last stand? That seems somewhat unbalanced. As for FB 11 DPE is still far too low for you to want to actually use more than 35 energy for your bites.

#23 Feorthas

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 03:51 AM

But 2 min cooldown on last stand? That seems somewhat unbalanced.


Wasn't Warrior last stand getting it's cooldown reduced to something around 2 or 3 minutes? Even if the warrior version is at 5-minutes, pre-talents, I don't think that having the druid version be at 2 is horribly unbalancing, given that it's the 51 point talent and whatnot.

#24 North101

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:11 AM

As for FB 11 DPE is still far too low for you to want to actually use more than 35 energy for your bites.

This is an extra 1100 damage with 100 energy with the best gear (though unbuffed) excluding another 15% with Feral Aggression, another 10% with Naturalist and another 10% with Predatory Instincts if it crits. This would be an additional 3061 damage if it crits (although this is obviously assuming the best case senario). IMO I don't think they could buff it more than that otherwise it would be far too much burst.

#25 Meddler

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:25 AM

Bear in mind you will be giving up 65 energy worth of other attacks though (over an additional GCD admittedly) for that burst - 3000 damage for 65 energy on a crit still compares fairly poorly to simply shredding then biting, nice to see an improvement though particularly when solo or otherwise unable to shred.

On the subject of Beserk will be interesting to see if the Bear and Cat versions share a cooldown or not, particularly when OTing or PVPing.

#26 Mijae

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 06:12 AM

This is an extra 1100 damage with 100 energy with the best gear (though unbuffed) excluding another 15% with Feral Aggression, another 10% with Naturalist and another 10% with Predatory Instincts if it crits. This would be an additional 3061 damage if it crits (although this is obviously assuming the best case senario). IMO I don't think they could buff it more than that otherwise it would be far too much burst.

It only affects the extra energy. So it's 786 extra damage (65*11*1.1) not 1100, and 1620 on crit (1863 with talent). I don't even know where you pulled that 3k+ number from. I would much rather have an even larger burst over 1-2 seconds more using Shred or even Mangle. It's just not worth the energy.

#27 Nathariel

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 07:25 AM

Could still be 100 on a OoC proc, not that I would recommend spending energy in that way.

#28 Prinsesa

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 08:56 AM

It wasn't mentioned in the OP, but IIRC, Ferocious Bite's energy to damage conversion will scale with AP.

As well, Tiger's Fury will no longer cost any energy, but will have a cooldown instead (I'm not sure how long though).
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#29 Rannasha

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 09:09 AM

It wasn't mentioned in the OP, but IIRC, Ferocious Bite's energy to damage conversion will scale with AP.

As well, Tiger's Fury will no longer cost any energy, but will have a cooldown instead (I'm not sure how long though).


Added. Both those changes are long overdue. TF has been a "why even put it on your bar?" ability for as long as i can remember and OoC is the only clearcasting-talent that can be dispelled.

#30 North101

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 10:46 AM

It only affects the extra energy. So it's 786 extra damage (65*11*1.1) not 1100, and 1620 on crit (1863 with talent). I don't even know where you pulled that 3k+ number from. I would much rather have an even larger burst over 1-2 seconds more using Shred or even Mangle. It's just not worth the energy.


I know it only effects extra energy, I was simply assuming the best conditions for it and I never said it would be better than using a shred or mangle before it either. I was simply suggesting that in a single move that imo it would be too much burst if they increased it any more. I see our Feriocous Bite as a quick way to either burn all your energy before a shift or a PVP finisher so while you could use a shred or mangle before it then there is a chance in the global cooldown that they could out range you or get healed.

#31 kodiak

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 11:24 AM

Could anyone clarify if TF remained the 6 sec duration? if it did it will be one more ability that you have to time to fit your cycle so you get maximum benefit out of it.

#32 Valerian

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 01:21 PM

Could anyone clarify if TF remained the 6 sec duration? if it did it will be one more ability that you have to time to fit your cycle so you get maximum benefit out of it.


I saw somewhere it was off GCD but I dont see the confirmed anywhere. Not that big a deal though, you'd likely have times in your cycle where an extra GCD wouldn't be a huge detriment. Now it MAY become beneficial to rip->mangle then wait for near full energy again to TF->start shredding. Its only once every 30 sec anyways so it'll be somewhere near once per 3 cycles use anyways.

Im curious if they're going to add another finisher for us to use. With 15% more crit from Shred and 4% more from master shapeshifter, our combo point generation will be extremely fast. Already I'm more often than not using 5 point rips just because I need to throw in extra shreds in my cycle due to high crit rate. This is assuming crit rate will increase again with the expansion. Already feral crit rate is pretty high. They may try and reign that in some.

#33 Xelopheris

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 01:43 PM

Could anyone clarify if TF remained the 6 sec duration? if it did it will be one more ability that you have to time to fit your cycle so you get maximum benefit out of it.


See no reason for a duration change.

DPS Cycle will be:

Trinkets on rip > Tiger's Fury on Mangle > Shred.

The only difference is you have to avoid powershifting while Tiger's Fury is up. A simple modification to FeralKit to check for existance of Tiger's Fury before cancelling form will work.

Also, every third cycle, you will be waiting for max energy rather than powershift like a mofo.

*edit* Another finisher to a cycle is too much. Assuming perfect crits and doing 4CP Rips and Ferocious Bites, even with 2pc t6 bonus, 29 energy mangle, 3x 42 energy shreds, 30 energy rip, is already 185 energy. You also wouldn't be able to powershift enough and build combo points due to having to wait a tick for each shred and the constant gcd's.

#34 Valerian

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:26 PM

*edit* Another finisher to a cycle is too much. Assuming perfect crits and doing 4CP Rips and Ferocious Bites, even with 2pc t6 bonus, 29 energy mangle, 3x 42 energy shreds, 30 energy rip, is already 185 energy. You also wouldn't be able to powershift enough and build combo points due to having to wait a tick for each shred and the constant gcd's.


My point was a "buff" finisher ala Slice and Dice, since using FB in the cycle is pretty weak. Its kinda clear the FB is a PvP/Soloing move especially with the increased DPE that makes it nice burst but still terribly inefficient DPE. Either that or a finisher that is still effective at lower than max combo points. Currently FB is only more efficient than shred at 5 CPs. If FB was efficient at like 3 CP or something it would fit into a cycle with high crit reasonably (maybe every couple of cycles or something).

#35 Valerian

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:39 PM

In terms of the talents if they stay as they are, I was wondering what an "ideal" level 70 PvE spec will be. I'd assume we'll actually get these talents pre-expansion (like last time) so it may be worthwhile to look into.

I came up with: War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

I don't like giving up ILotP but almost everything else seems more valuable. I also dont like losing savage fury but again it only affects solo grinding/minor dps loss in raids.

At 80, the ideal PvE spec would probably throw the remaining 10 points into:
1 OOC
3 Natural Shapeshifter
2 Master Shapeshifter
2 Savage Fury (or 1 SF 1 Thick hide, if armor is really needed).
2 ILotP

Thoughts?

#36 Vaccine

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 02:56 PM

In terms of the talents if they stay as they are, I was wondering what an "ideal" level 70 PvE spec will be. I'd assume we'll actually get these talents pre-expansion (like last time) so it may be worthwhile to look into.

I came up with: War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

I don't like giving up ILotP but almost everything else seems more valuable. I also dont like losing savage fury but again it only affects solo grinding/minor dps loss in raids.

At 80, the ideal PvE spec would probably throw the remaining 10 points into:
1 OOC
3 Natural Shapeshifter
2 Master Shapeshifter
2 Savage Fury (or 1 SF 1 Thick hide, if armor is really needed).
2 ILotP

Thoughts?


I'd go with something similar. Would take Thick hide max though and not touch savage fury.

For the remaining point I had I didn't really know what to do wtih it, chucked it in Infected Wounds. We'll have to see how the Death Knight theory crafting turns out, adding those extra diseased from infected wounds might be a significant DPS boost for them though, I've seen a few things that either consume diseases or are more powerful the number of diseases on the target so we'll have to see there.

I kind of agree on Imp.LotP, I love it solo but at max level in raiding we rarely see a use for it these days, the raid damage is just too large and inconsistent on most fights for it to be of much use. If DK's do get a decent benefit from us throwing up diseases I'd be tempted to stick the Imp.LotP points in Infected wounds for 3/5.
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#37 angi

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 03:31 PM

In terms of the talents if they stay as they are, I was wondering what an "ideal" level 70 PvE spec will be. I'd assume we'll actually get these talents pre-expansion (like last time) so it may be worthwhile to look into.

I came up with: War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

I don't like giving up ILotP but almost everything else seems more valuable. I also dont like losing savage fury but again it only affects solo grinding/minor dps loss in raids.

At 80, the ideal PvE spec would probably throw the remaining 10 points into:
1 OOC
3 Natural Shapeshifter
2 Master Shapeshifter
2 Savage Fury (or 1 SF 1 Thick hide, if armor is really needed).
2 ILotP

Thoughts?


I would choose Savage Fury instead of Primal Precision. 10 Expertise is in my gear 6 DPS and the energy cost refund sounds nice, but is only on finishers and with being 2,5% short on the expertise cap wearing current gear you get a very small benefit of that. 20% more mangle damage is rougly 30 dps more in a normal raid dps cycle and 20% more damage in solo play/pvp ;).

#38 North101

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:48 PM

Could anyone clarify if TF remained the 6 sec duration? if it did it will be one more ability that you have to time to fit your cycle so you get maximum benefit out of it.


Says 6 sec in the tooltip and it doesn't activate the global cooldown.

Also just to add, SotF gives 2%/4%/6% stats as well as the 2%/4%/6% crit reduction

#39 Valerian

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 04:57 PM

I would choose Savage Fury instead of Primal Precision. 10 Expertise is in my gear 6 DPS and the energy cost refund sounds nice, but is only on finishers and with being 2,5% short on the expertise cap wearing current gear you get a very small benefit of that. 20% more mangle damage is rougly 30 dps more in a normal raid dps cycle and 20% more damage in solo play/pvp ;).


It says 10 expertise not 10 expertise rating. Unless Im reading too much into the details, but arnt other classes' talents like that too?

#40 Rannasha

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 05:11 PM

It says 10 expertise not 10 expertise rating. Unless Im reading too much into the details, but arnt other classes' talents like that too?


Other expertise-talents also give expertise rather than expertise rating. The whole expertise vs expertise rating business seems a bit needlessly complicated. They could've just created the "expertise rating" stat and from that derive the dodge/parry reduction (like is done with hit rating already) without the in-between step of "expertise". Talents could've been readjusted to read "Reduces the chance your attacks are dodged or parried by X%".




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