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Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion


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#41 angi

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 08:31 PM

Other expertise-talents also give expertise rather than expertise rating. The whole expertise vs expertise rating business seems a bit needlessly complicated. They could've just created the "expertise rating" stat and from that derive the dodge/parry reduction (like is done with hit rating already) without the in-between step of "expertise". Talents could've been readjusted to read "Reduces the chance your attacks are dodged or parried by X%".


ok than my post is irrelevant ;)

#42 Balancemoon

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 09:40 AM

I'm thinking the way the feral tree is looking, it is not a choice to either spec cat dps persay or bear tanking, but I think it may be geared at making you choose between being Main tank material or being an off-tank/dps player. Presumably the latter is designed so you have enough to offtank but not quite to main tank on the 25 man raid, but enough to main tank a 5-man or 10-man regardless?

#43 Valerian

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 12:13 PM

I'm thinking the way the feral tree is looking, it is not a choice to either spec cat dps persay or bear tanking, but I think it may be geared at making you choose between being Main tank material or being an off-tank/dps player. Presumably the latter is designed so you have enough to offtank but not quite to main tank on the 25 man raid, but enough to main tank a 5-man or 10-man regardless?


War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

This has pretty much all you need, talent wise, for DPSing and MTing. You have 2 free points too. One can go to maxing thick hide, the other into Savage Fury, Primal Tenacity even feral aggression. Or you could put two into one of these other talents and neglect one point from thick hide.

The tradeoff is quite minor for any of these choices. The only real MT talent you'd be missing is feral aggression (since demo roar is apparently getting better), but even then it seems as though the warrior one is STILL better then ours and the MT himself doesn't need to be the one putting up Demo anyways.

The talent tree, as is, does make the split between PvE feral and PvP feral though. You definitely don't have enough talent points to get all of the infected claws points, NI, primal tenacity etc which are all solid PvP talents, along with the PvE ones.

#44 Xelopheris

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 12:52 PM

War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

This has pretty much all you need, talent wise, for DPSing and MTing. You have 2 free points too. One can go to maxing thick hide, the other into Savage Fury, Primal Tenacity even feral aggression. Or you could put two into one of these other talents and neglect one point from thick hide.

The tradeoff is quite minor for any of these choices. The only real MT talent you'd be missing is feral aggression (since demo roar is apparently getting better), but even then it seems as though the warrior one is STILL better then ours and the MT himself doesn't need to be the one putting up Demo anyways.

The talent tree, as is, does make the split between PvE feral and PvP feral though. You definitely don't have enough talent points to get all of the infected claws points, NI, primal tenacity etc which are all solid PvP talents, along with the PvE ones.


Take one point out of imp lotp, drop them in Savage Fury and Thick Hide.

If you get enough hit and expertise that you are no-dodge no-miss without it, you can drop a point in Primal Precision.

#45 Zadnak

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 08:06 PM

Here's the latest patch notes from the new Alpha that was released last night:

Druid

* Soothe Animal now works on dragonkin
* Challenging Roar cooldown changed to 3 minutes
* Maul description changed to "A strong attack that increases melee damage by $s1 and causes a high amount of threat."
* Moonglow now affects Starfall and Wrath too
* Celestial Focus, Vengeance, Focused Starlight - now affect Starfall too
* Predatory strikes
o "Increases your melee attack power in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear and Moonkin Forms by 50%/100%/150% of your level and 7%/14%/20% of any attack power on your equipped weapon."

* Natures Swiftness - added "with a casting time less than 10 sec." to description
* Improved tranquility threat modifier changed to 30%/60%
* Ferocious Bite and Rip damage values changed
* Entangling roots now tick every second
* Lunar Guidance changed to 4%/8%/12%
* Nurturing Instinct increased healing changed to 35%/70%
* Empowered Touch changed to 20%/40%
* Mangle debuff now affects mangle too
* Owlkin frenzy - haste effect changed to "immune to pushback while casting Balance spells."
* Primal Precision 30%/60% changed to 40%/80%
* Primal Aggression changed to "Increases damage done by your Maul and Shred attacks on bleeding targets by 2%/4%/6%, and increases the critical strike chance of your Ferocious Bite ability on bleeding targets by 10%/20%/30%."
* Infected Wounds proc chance changed to 33%/66%/100%
* Reinforced Hide replaced by King of the Jungle
o "While Enraged in Bear form or Dire Bear form, your damage is increased by 5%/10%/15%, and your Tiger's Fury ability also instantly restores 20/40/60 energy"

* Living Seed proc chance changed to 33%/66%/100% and effect changed to 30%
* Starfall secondary damage radius reduced to 5 yards
* Natures Fury removed effect "Converts $s2% of your bonus healing into bonus spell damage"
* Berserk Reduces - Energy regeneration replaced by reduced energy cost of all abilities. Also Mangle (Bear) and Maul abilities hit up to 3 maximum targets.
* Replenish - proc chance changed to 5%/10%/15%
* Gnaw renamed to Lock Jaw, description says "stuns the target and deals damage", otherwise unchanged
* Nourish - Additional heal changed to "Heals for an additional 12% for each Rejuvenation, Regrowth, or Lifebloom effect cast by you active on the target."


Source - General: 8391 Changes - Full list


edit: Further down in the discussion, at the link above, someone asks what Gnaw/Lock Jaw is. It says:

Level 75, 25 energy. Kitty version of kidney shot



#46 North101

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 08:38 PM

Here's the latest patch notes from the new Alpha that was released last night:
<snip>


I don't think mangle effects mangle, got this from Chickens datamining thing:

Mangle the target for 115% normal damage plus 252 and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from Maul and bleed effects for 12 sec.

Mangle the target for 160% normal damage plus 429 and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from Shred and bleed effects for 12 sec. Awards 1 combo point.


Overall some good and some bad.

Predatory Strikes got a nice buff that also scales with gear so thats one of my complaints out of the way.

I didn't think Nurturing Instinct needed to be nerfed and actually thought that it could have done with a small buff (since they don't give us PVP rings/necks/cloaks/trinkets/weapons/idols with agi on).

Shame about Reinforced Hide getting removed (or at least the magic damage part of it). I'm hopping that it will be added to Thick Hide.

Looking forward to using Mangle (Bear) with Berserk :)

#47 PSGarak

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:21 AM

Changing the Enrage from double energy regeneration to halved energy cost is almost a null change except for two things: queuing energy beforehand (netting it an additional 100 effective energy), and Ferocious Bite. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it affects Ferocious Bite. On the assumption that it doesn't change the energy->dmg conversion, it nets you some extra energy for conversion there... but that energy is worth twice as much. And I think that makes it inferior in that regard to the previous iteration, but I'm not completely sure. However with queuing netting (80 to) 100 free extra energy, I think the change to its behavoir is an overall buff, unless you can fit more than two Bites into one enrage.

I am wrly amused that the cat form version is adrenaline rush, and the bear form version is... blade flurry =P.
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#48 Mijae

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 06:10 AM

Changing the Enrage from double energy regeneration to halved energy cost is almost a null change except for two things: queuing energy beforehand (netting it an additional 100 effective energy), and Ferocious Bite. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it affects Ferocious Bite. On the assumption that it doesn't change the energy->dmg conversion, it nets you some extra energy for conversion there... but that energy is worth twice as much. And I think that makes it inferior in that regard to the previous iteration, but I'm not completely sure. However with queuing netting (80 to) 100 free extra energy, I think the change to its behavoir is an overall buff, unless you can fit more than two Bites into one enrage.

The Berserk change to half energy instead of increased regen makes it a much better form of burst damage. It makes all of your current energy worth double as well as upcoming ticks. Imagine blowing all your cooldowns at once. Using it at 100 energy with enraged Tiger's Fury and popping a trinket if you can... That's effectively 320 energy. Not to mention 20 energy ticks are still effectively worth 40. The only difference is if you cannot use all the energy as you get it.

#49 Meddler

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 11:06 AM

Only other difference that leaps to mind is that it means you don't have as much extra energy to burn on FB. Assumedly still not going to be an attractive option but does impact that as well.

#50 Ja7us

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 11:42 AM

Berserk will result in some funny cycles - I'm actually a little worried that I'll be able to use all the energy without spillover.


Energy                            Time         CP
80   Tick                             0s
62   Activate berserk, Mangle      0s     1-2 <-----assuming it isn't on the GCD
41   Shred                         1s     2-4
40   Tick, Shred                   2s     3-5
25   Rip                           3s     0
24   Tick, Shred                   4s     1-2
03   Shred                         5s     2-4
02   Tick, Shred                   6s     3-5         
01   Tick, Shred                   8s     4-5
60   Tick, Tiger's Fury, Shred     10s    5   <-----Tiger's Fury adds 60 energy
49   Shred                         11s    5
51   Tick, Mangle                  12s    5
30   Shred                         13s    5
29   Tick, Shred                   14s    5
14   Rip                           15s    0
13   Tick, Shred                   16s    1-2
12   Tick, Shred                   18s    2-4

Totals:
Mangle            1
Shred             7-8
Mangle (With TF)  1
Shred (With TF)   4-5
Rip               2
       


...All with no OOC/2T4 procs (I assume the effect is lost if you powershift)! The energy usage will be very very tight, but it presents an opportunity for very high DPS during that window. With a few 2t4/OOC procs you could be looking at as many as 14-15 shreds during the duration of the spell. Pretty nuts.

#51 TimWischmeier

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 01:51 PM

Changing the Enrage from double energy regeneration to halved energy cost is almost a null change except for two things: queuing energy beforehand (netting it an additional 100 effective energy), and Ferocious Bite.


There is another important effect with this change: think of procs you gain energy from (2T4). With doubled energy regeneration rate, those proccs are unaffected. But with energy cost cut to half, those procs are effectively doubled.

#52 Nathariel

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 02:22 PM

Yes, but Omen procs will only have half the value as it is next attack free rather than a fixed amount of energy.

Also, with some of the gear links that have been posted, I doubt 2T4 would be justafiable in a DPS set.

#53 Kirion

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:31 PM

There is another important effect with this change: think of procs you gain energy from (2T4). With doubled energy regeneration rate, those proccs are unaffected. But with energy cost cut to half, those procs are effectively doubled.


If 2t4 proc will still be good at 80 level, Blizzard will nerf it, that’s for sure.
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#54 smellme

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:42 PM

* Primal Aggression changed to "Increases damage done by your Maul and Shred attacks on bleeding targets by 2%/4%/6%, and increases the critical strike chance of your Ferocious Bite ability on bleeding targets by 10%/20%/30%."
* Infected Wounds proc chance changed to 33%/66%/100%



edit: Further down in the discussion, at the link above, someone asks what Gnaw/Lock Jaw is. It says:


i believe they switched infected wounds and primal aggresions places and also changed each.

infected wounds while being much cheaper now reduces movement speed and attack speed by up to 50% so the mindnumb version is gone(possible rogues may get an attackspeed slowing posoin?)

new primal aggression goes up has 5 points required also meaning a 10% increase to shred and maul on bleeding targets/50% extra crit for ferocious bite on bleeding targets to.

seems to be they are making bearform much more dps orientated again and are finally bringing back the scalling we used to have(maul damage increased by mangle, also increased another 10% for one application of lacerate, also the melee attack speed reduction with infected wounds making us more anti-melee than we are currently)

i love the prospect of the new berzerk though for bear, makes for a real nice damage reduction when applying 3 stacks to 3 melee mobs at one time of infected wounds. that and the new kind of the jungle is very attractive, 60 energy restored every 30 seoonds on tigers fury use(hello rogue trinket?) and a nice 15% increased damage while enraged.

i think it's safe to say infected wounds will stay given it's actually very balanced

paladins have cleanse/BoP would make them immune to both it's affects
shamans have remove disease/totem/only lasts 6 seconds on a pvp spec
priests have aboloish/remove disease
druids themselves can remove it via shifting
rogues can use CoS to remove it

good amount of classes have counters to it but at the same time it's also still effective given its automatic application on use of mangle/maul and shred.

lets not mention activating berzerk and then hitting tigers fury for 60 energy regen and a quick burst potential.

that' my take anyway(though the new primal aggresion im unsure about how i feel)

#55 Mijae

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:32 PM

Berserk will result in some funny cycles - I'm actually a little worried that I'll be able to use all the energy without spillover.

...All with no OOC/2T4 procs (I assume the effect is lost if you powershift)! The energy usage will be very very tight, but it presents an opportunity for very high DPS during that window. With a few 2t4/OOC procs you could be looking at as many as 14-15 shreds during the duration of the spell. Pretty nuts.

Note - this is assuming current itemization. They'll also need to make new gear better than keeping t6 bonuses as well. We already know Improved Mangle reduces energy cost by 6. There could be any number of new bonuses to reduce costs or otherwise change ability usage. They might also make Rake worth using and fitting in to a rotation. In addition, with so much energy during Berserk it might finally be viable to fit in a FB between Rips. There are 9 attacks between Rips in this example.

#56 Tasonir

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:22 PM

The talent trees on this site are already getting somewhat outdated sadly, but what does everyone think of this PVE MT build (with DPS as necessary):

War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

Two points are left unassigned.

Another point could be found in my currently 2/5 infected wounds when that's changed to 1/3. I do think that having some points in there are going to be useful for PVE. It's not clear what % of raid mobs and bosses will be affected by it, but some certainly will. Also, from a PVE perspective, 100% chance is completely unnecessary, once you start hitting the mob consistently it will certainly reach 5 stacks. The update to a 33% chance and 3 talent means you could probably place just 1 point in it for a PVE build and 3 points for a PVP build.

Assuming you can get away with 1 in infected wounds, you have 3 points to assign:

PVE:
If you're going to be shouting mobs 2/5 in feral aggression should allow for CoR (from earlier in this thread, I have not confirmed this).
You could max improved mangle.
Savage Fury is a slight boost to cat dps, but improved mangle would probably work just as well.

PVP:
Brutal impact, nurturing instinct, or even primal tenacity are great choices for your final points.

Or if you're the only druid in your raid (doing 10 man versions of raids?) you can take 2/2 improved mark of the wild.

I'm kind of looking forward to the 3/3 in natural shapeshifter, my level 70 builds have never had this, but master shapeshifter looks like it's worthwhile to me.

#57 Mijae

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 10:51 PM

Improved Mangle is a must imo. It's decent for cat (better than 2t6) and huge for bear. I do agree 1 point in Infected Wounds for PvE. Imp LotP gets less and less valuable in comparison to other talents and I'd probably drop it for Savage Fury (or even Imp MotW if no restos).

#58 Deathwing

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 11:34 PM

Improved Mangle is a must imo. It's decent for cat (better than 2t6) and huge for bear. I do agree 1 point in Infected Wounds for PvE. Imp LotP gets less and less valuable in comparison to other talents and I'd probably drop it for Savage Fury (or even Imp MotW if no restos).


Just one? I guess in extended tanking sessions you might be able to build up and then maintain a full stack, but I'd want 3 points in there just to get that 50% attack speed slow on there asap.

Which brings me to my main point of replying. 50% attack speed slow...what the fuck. Not even a 51 point talent. I know blizzard tacked on 20% slow to CoW, but this much slow makes no sense at all. That's enough slow to make a huge difference in learning curve if your healers happen to be used to healing with it and then all your ferals are absent one night.

#59 Tembetyu

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:42 AM

Well that's assuming bosses aren't made immune to it and it's not reduced to 50% speed reduced and 20% slow to bring it more in line with existing abilities.

#60 Balancemoon

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 03:05 AM

In my opinion, bosses will almost be guaranteed to immune to it. It's effectiveness in PvE would be on trash and boss adds, which will continue to play an even greater role in WotLK making many of those previously so called "PvP abilities", so called because the effects were immune on actual bosses, become rather useable and useful again.

Saying that I think infected wounds is the PvP arena ability Arena Feral druids have been waiting for and is by far the most exciting thing about the talents so far from a pvp perspective as other talents would have little bearing on feral druid popularity seeing that all classess will continue to scale evenly in dps.




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