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#3481 Montegomery

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 04:33 PM

I believe Blizzard has figured out, though I think they probably had an inkling before, that holding all talents to the same standard is folly. By nature there must be iconic, spec-defining talents that break out of the "1% per point" paradigm. Having a baseline of "1% per point" works as a great foundation to build off of, but true balance can't be obtained by rigidly sticking to that concept.

Talents like Bloodthirst and Titan's Grip are iconic, just as Shadow Form, Earth Shield, Fel Guard, Crusader Strike, Bestial Wrath, Water Elemental, Shadowstep and Mangle (and many others) are. Whether providing utility, damage, or other effectiveness these talents can't play by the normal rules. Good gameplay must trump everything except class/spec balance.

It's very hopeful to see that Blizzard is willing to reverse nerfs made for the sake of arbitrary rules. Whether or not we'll see the removal of the 5% penalty probably rests more on how the armor buff to bosses affects us relative to other melee/physical DPS.

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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#3482 Russta

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 05:15 PM

Hit was a ridiculous penalty to add in the first place.
  • It ruined Fury's ability to tank well when they were trying to make it possible for non-tank specs to be able to do so.
  • It ruined Fury's viability in PvP when they were trying to get all trees viable in both PvP and PvE.
  • It made Fury a very unappealing choice to people leveling the class due to the chronic lack of gear to support it outside raids.
  • It made Plate gear require more hit on it which ruins the homogenization of gear as Paladins and Death Knights (sorta) don't need so much of it.
  • 15% and 12% were just annoying to aim for, 5% is wholly irrelevant, and, eventually, Fury Warrior will become God when the gear is available to truly negate it.
I seriously have no idea what they were thinking when they added it, it was such a shortsighted decision. I do agree that it needs a penalty but I'm at a loss as to what would work. This talent is going to come back and bite them, and us Warriors, in the arse in a few months because I'm getting serious vanilla Naxx déjÃ* vu.

#3483 Raised

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 06:17 PM

Possibily transfering the hit penalty to crit penalty, as crit is not a 'reach-cap-and-move-on' stat. It would also nerf rage gen a bit, making the huge increase in white damage be somewhat offset by the reduction of yellow damage.

If they leave TG as is, non-51point Fury Warriors are going to eat nerfs designed to pull the ridiculousness of TG back in line with other DPS classes.

#3484 Daronsk

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:01 PM

Possibily transfering the hit penalty to crit penalty, as crit is not a 'reach-cap-and-move-on' stat. It would also nerf rage gen a bit, making the huge increase in white damage be somewhat offset by the reduction of yellow damage.

If they leave TG as is, non-51point Fury Warriors are going to eat nerfs designed to pull the ridiculousness of TG back in line with other DPS classes.


The problem with changing the penelty to crit is that it would really hurt the pvp aspect of Titan's grip. Fury already relies on crit to get its damage going due to flurry and this is even more true now that we have rampage proccing off crits. If they throw a crit penelty on top of resilliance then your looking at a very unfavorable position to overcome for fury pvp.

#3485 Shha

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:41 PM

Honestly if you look earlier in this thread I mentioned it already. The penalty was there, and it was about perfect one - the haste one. Reasons why it was correct approach:

- Currently TG scales the best of all specs/classes. A flat nerf on a stat like hit that doesnt really suffer from "diminishing returns" (well it does but very slightly), until cap, just gives ANOTHER way to scale. As in it will simply nerf initial damage while boosting scaling.

- Nerf on haste "scales" with gear. Its more and more severe the more haste there is on your gear. Nerf to hit can be basically said as a flat rating nerf - 5% hit = ~79 hit rating flat penalty. A 5% haste nerf would be a 79haste rating * 1+haste rating boost ). If you had enough haste for 20% speed increase the 5% flat speed nerf would change into a 95 rating etc etc.

- Nerf on haste lowers the white swing/heroic damage, which makes more interesting fury rotation. One thing about TG that has no "mathematical" consequence, but it makes it somewhat boring is the low appeal of the instants. Arms has fun big crits with SD - with TG basically your BT crit often are lower then your autoattack crits/heroic crits.

- A solid nerf on haste makes Slam a viable addition to Fury dps - a NON Bloodsurged Slam to be exact. That makes TG somewhat more entertaining again


Couple a haste nerf within realm of 15%, with a boost to unending fury to 15% damage/10% lower CD on BT/WW/Slam (so BT/WW end up being 4.5/9 sec cds or 3/6 gcds for more smooth rotations) and you have more interesting TG playstyle.

5% like Blizzard said doesnt even make much sense - I got there by gemming ONE 10 hit gem and using hit food over str.

#3486 levk

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:51 PM

<stuff>


I leveled 60-70 as TG fury with the 15% penalty and to be honest it wasn't that bad. People look at the raid hit cap numbers which are staggering but during leveling I mostly went for green quests with green mobs and the numbers there are substantially lower. Was I close to the hit cap on those mobs? Absolutely not and it was mildly irritating to miss two executes in a row, but I still think it was easily the best choice for leveling. Hit gear on outland quest rewards is reasonably easy to find (unless you have leatherophobia) and again you don't need all that much for green mobs. Only gripe really is since there's no hit gear in azeroth you can't take any with you.

I actually think in concept it was a pretty good way to go about it - far better than the haste penalty they went with originally - hit is a cheap stat to stack. And it was good to have this new option open with a good cheap stat making 5 stat gear possible with all the things you really want - hit, str, crit, and haste. The only problem was as you said - none of the other plate classes need this much hit so this gear would be sparse.

About tanking - somebody did tests in one of the warrior threads and reported that TG penalty with a shield offhand only applied to BT and WW. Shield slam, sunder (no surprise here) and even white hits with a 2h mainhand are treated like you have a normal 1h. Basically only BT threat while tanking, and that penalty disappeared if you equipped a normal 1h. If you're in a situation where you can afford the BT penalty threatwise, it's probably better to use the 2h because of the normally retarded stamina advantage 2h have over 1h.

#3487 Rishkkin

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 09:09 PM

The bugs that plagued DWs are supposedly fixed :


We should get it in a patch before 3.1

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#3488 Montegomery

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 09:39 PM

Honestly if you look earlier in this thread I mentioned it already. The penalty was there, and it was about perfect one - the haste one. Reasons why it was correct approach:

- Currently TG scales the best of all specs/classes. A flat nerf on a stat like hit that doesnt really suffer from "diminishing returns" (well it does but very slightly), until cap, just gives ANOTHER way to scale. As in it will simply nerf initial damage while boosting scaling.

- Nerf on haste "scales" with gear. Its more and more severe the more haste there is on your gear. Nerf to hit can be basically said as a flat rating nerf - 5% hit = ~79 hit rating flat penalty. A 5% haste nerf would be a 79haste rating * 1+haste rating boost ). If you had enough haste for 20% speed increase the 5% flat speed nerf would change into a 95 rating etc etc.

- Nerf on haste lowers the white swing/heroic damage, which makes more interesting fury rotation. One thing about TG that has no "mathematical" consequence, but it makes it somewhat boring is the low appeal of the instants. Arms has fun big crits with SD - with TG basically your BT crit often are lower then your autoattack crits/heroic crits.

- A solid nerf on haste makes Slam a viable addition to Fury dps - a NON Bloodsurged Slam to be exact. That makes TG somewhat more entertaining again


Couple a haste nerf within realm of 15%, with a boost to unending fury to 15% damage/10% lower CD on BT/WW/Slam (so BT/WW end up being 4.5/9 sec cds or 3/6 gcds for more smooth rotations) and you have more interesting TG playstyle.

5% like Blizzard said doesnt even make much sense - I got there by gemming ONE 10 hit gem and using hit food over str.


I remember your arguments for the haste penalty, but to be frank I think they're dated. A lot has changed since we first moved from the haste penalty to no penalty to the varying degrees of a hit penalty. While your arguments were accurate at the time, so much has changed since then that I'm skeptical whether it remains accurate to claim that TG scales better than everything else.

If TG scales better and this translates into outpacing other DPS in T7+ then a haste penalty may be in order. That said, I disagree with a couple of your assessments.

I don't believe a haste penalty makes Fury Rotations any more interesting. Your weapons will hit as hard as before, just not as fast. If BT, WW and/or Slam hitting for less than a white hit or Heroic Strike is boring for you a haste penalty won't change anything.

I also disagree about Slam being a viable part of a TG Fury rotation beyond Bloodsurge. Improved Slam is out of reach for Fury, meaning normal Slams will stop your white DPS for 1.5 seconds. Therefore, the damage of Slam must be greater than the combined damage of 1.5 seconds of DPS from both weapons, the loss in rage generation and the spent rage. I did a rough calculation using my current gear and in order for Slam to break even with my raw white DPS requires a haste penalty of ~10%. Even if you doubled that the rage cost, and awareness/mobility cost, are unlikely to be worth it. If we had access to Improved Slam it would be very different, but we don't.

For me, TG is perfectly entertaining as is. Maybe it's different at the T6 level, but I'm enjoying it.

... you could very well have a concerto, but the closest the average listener gets to hearing it is the interpretation as put on by a group of small children with those little rainbow-coloured xylophones.


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#3489 Finkill

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 05:28 AM

I am not positive if anybody has yet to post the percentages and numbers for hit cap, defense cap, and expertise raiting required yet on any of these posts as far as warriors go. I can't seem to get my recount to function properly on beta so i can't come up with stable nubmers myself. If anyone could help me out i would appreciate it very much.

#3490 cypher66

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 07:59 PM

I wanted to know if anyone has tried dw arms, beside me. Before the patch last week I was capping around 3.7k dps on brut and now I am doing just under 3k do to the sudden death nerf. There are also a complete lack of spreadsheets for dw arms, which makes it even harder for me to get some numbers for cacl dps of my gear for a dw arms spec.

I have tried tg and saw so real dps increase or decrease from dw arms, and if anything I saw a sligh decrease (but it was ever so slight) on KJ, but that might be a factor because of bladestorm and sweeping striking the clones over just ww.

Also I wanted to know if Mace spec was currently bugged.. After wacking a druid in bear form for several minutes I did not see an increase in my average white hit MAX damage (tested in mainhand ,offhand, and tested using a dw vs a comparable sword).

#3491 Furrymaker

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 12:34 PM

Also I wanted to know if Mace spec was currently bugged.. After wacking a druid in bear form for several minutes I did not see an increase in my average white hit MAX damage (tested in mainhand ,offhand, and tested using a dw vs a comparable sword).


Not sure if it's a bug or not but I've found since the last patch 1h weapons do not gain the weapon specializations in arms, only 2h weapons.

#3492 Prinsesa

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 03:15 PM

I am not positive if anybody has yet to post the percentages and numbers for hit cap, defense cap, and expertise raiting required yet on any of these posts as far as warriors go. I can't seem to get my recount to function properly on beta so i can't come up with stable nubmers myself. If anyone could help me out i would appreciate it very much.


At level 80, against a level 83 mob:

Defense cap: 689 defense rating to be uncrittable

Single-wielding hit cap without Precision: 296 hit rating to remove the 9% miss rate.

Single-wielding hit cap with Precision: 197 hit rating to remove the 6% miss rate.

*Note that these two above caps will apply to single-wielding Prot Warriors, two-handed-wielding Arms Warriors, and the yellow hit cap of non-Titan's-Grip Fury Warriors

Dual-wielding white hit cap without Precision: 919 hit rating to remove the 28% miss rate.

Dual-wielding white hit cap with 3/3 Precision: 820 hit rating to remove the 25% miss rate.

Titan's Grip yellow hit cap without Precision: 460 hit rating to remove the 14% miss rate.

Titan's Grip yellow hit cap with Precision: 361 hit rating to remove the 11% miss rate.

EDIT: For expertise caps, assuming the cap is still a 6.5% dodge rate:

Without Weapon Mastery: 214 expertise rating to remove the 6.5% dodge rate (equal to 26 expertise skill)

With 2/2 Weapon Mastery: 148 expertise rating to remove the 4.5% dodge rate (equal to 18 expertise skill)

Follow-up question: Can Vitality's 6 expertise skill actually come up in a DPS build? I intentionally did not compute for this since it did not seem relevant.
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#3493 rejdakon

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 04:08 PM

EDIT: For expertise caps, assuming the cap is still a 6.5% dodge rate:


Just a small deviation, but as far as I remember correctly, Dodge was found to be at 6.2% for bosses.


Follow-up question: Can Vitality's 6 expertise skill actually come up in a DPS build? I intentionally did not compute for this since it did not seem relevant.


That would force you to invest at least 38 points in protection. While One-handed Specialization, Incite, Focused Rage and Vitality do help your DpS, I seriously doubt that any build going that far down the prot tree would be able to do do close to competitive DpS.

6 Expertise is only 49 expertise rating at 80. Going 38 protection just for 50 stat points would probably not be too reasonable if DpS is your main role.

#3494 cypher66

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 11:59 PM

Not sure if it's a bug or not but I've found since the last patch 1h weapons do not gain the weapon specializations in arms, only 2h weapons.


nono the axe spec 1 def works, but havent tested the sword spec

#3495 Tankietka

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 01:09 PM

EDIT: For expertise caps, assuming the cap is still a 6.5% dodge rate:

Without Weapon Mastery: 214 expertise rating to remove the 6.5% dodge rate (equal to 26 expertise skill)

With 2/2 Weapon Mastery: 148 expertise rating to remove the 4.5% dodge rate (equal to 18 expertise skill)


Don't forget about Strength of Arms which gives (2/2) 4 Expertise (at least for Arms warriors :-)).




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