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WotLK talent Preview/Discussion


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#21 Gromag

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 12:14 PM

Everyone seems to assume that you would dual wield 2x 2H using Titan grip... Personally I'm thinking that a 2H mainhand + fast 1H offhand would work well combined with Sword Spec.

Sadly the talent are far apart enough that you could only get 1 point in Titan Grip to take 5 points in Sword Spec.


However to compair;

Assuming 2x 2H (5/5 Titans Grip) with a 3.5s weapon;

1/(3.5/0.8) = 0.228 swing/sec



Assuming 2H (MH) 3.5s with 1H (OH) with 1.4 s, and 1/5 Titans Grip, 5/5 Sword Spec;

The OH will swing at swing/sec... at a 5% proc rate this is 1 proc every 28sec (or 0.036 extra swings a second)

The MH will therefore have = (1/(3.5/0.72))+0.036 = 0.241 swings/sec

This will give the main hand a 5.6% improved MH swing speed.


Note: The above takes no account of Sword Spec proccing from WW or the MH so is conservative... a quick check also shows that the 5.6% difference in swing speed remains constant with haste.


Whether this will give better overall DPS is not clear to me as many other factors are beyond my theorycrafting skills, such as the effect of having more even rage generation and slightly more spikey DPS... and I haven't checked to see if this improved swing speed will outwiegh the loses incured on WW.

#22 Garithras

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 12:23 PM

I'm wondering, if they don't move Blood Frenzy, will Mortal Strike, Bloodthrist, Whirlwind rotations become the new first warrior PvE Spec? It seems like it would have enough rage dumps to not require slam, and it would be a much easier to play.


I've wondered the same thing. I've heard speculation that MS & BT share a cooldown, but I've seen no confirmation of that as of yet.

#23 MuSsEr

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 12:45 PM

One thing I am concerned about when it comes to the prot tree is the fact that "Defiance" seems to have been removed.

This talent gave "15% more threat generated from attacks while in defensive stance and 6 expertise".

The 6 expertise I'm not overly bothered about, but 15% threat removal kind of destroys tanking for us.

Anyone any ideas if this will be put in somewhere else? I.e. When you are in defensive stance you just generate more threat without having to talent for it?
Or if it will be trainable tor something?

#24 Onyki

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 12:46 PM

For those of you that was wondering about what impact the new Shield Block will have on crushing blow immunity, the answer will be none. Because afaik crushing blows will be totally removed from the game in WorLK

Aaah well... I think warrior will need a big boost in defense skill then, because if crushing blow are'nt there anymore, druids will be far superior for high end physical tanking. Crushing avoidance was a big part of the warrior tanking skill, and, even, a part of the fun (at least for me).

Well, we will see, its only alpha after all.

#25 Moogul

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 12:53 PM

Anyone any ideas if this will be put in somewhere else? I.e. When you are in defensive stance you just generate more threat without having to talent for it?


Yes, it is in fact exactly how you suggested it - it has been rolled into Defensive stance (untalented), which is now +45% threat rather tha +30%. Along with trainable shield slam, non-prot warriors will be able to put out a lot more threat when tanking.
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#26 Pitbuller

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 12:55 PM

Bf, Bt build is very solid. No need for compromises.
Coocie cutter arms build.(remember sword spec 5s CD)

But fury build is lot harder and you have to make lot's of serious trade offs. You want 2h spec, dw spec and max titan grip. More bang of the buck?(2%haste vs 1% crit/sword vs 1% hit vs imp execute vs sweeping strikes)
Sample 2h Fury spec.

I hope spell made instant by talents/buff do ignore swingtimer in WoltK
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#27 orgasmatron

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 01:43 PM

With 2 same speed 2H, you could take imp slam and play it like arms. Though low hit rating could mean some pretty bad miss strings.
Also with slow attack speed they have to change rampage in some meaningful way. Any 2h fury wars could tell when they refresh rampage?
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#28 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 01:47 PM

MS and BT have shared cooldowns forever. People on private servers have verified this for a very long time. You won't be able to spec 31/31/0 and get 2 instant attacks.

The announced Steady Shot change pretty much assures that instant Slams granted by Bloodsurge will not reset your swing timer. The talent simply wouldn't work any other way. We don't know what's going to happen with non-instant slams though. Even with this change I'm not sure that TG won't fall behind a standard 2h build later in itemization since it's only going to provide a free slam times a minute, but for one point it's a no-brainer. We're going to have to wait to see how the bottom of the Fury tree shakes out before we'll know whether or not TG will be worth it. The haste penalty really is awful for scaling and requires a much heavier reliance on yellow damage than any other warrior build.

There's still too many questions regarding tanking mechanics to have any idea what's going to really occur.

Interestingly, Bladestorm appears to hit all targets in range and is stanceless which gives Arms warriors a real niche job on AE pulls. Arms will probably go back to the preferred offspec build because of this and the 2 second Revenge cooldown granted by Unrelenting Assault despite getting bunko for single target DPS. Sudden Death doesn't count since Execute is pretty much the worst way to spend your rage when you have other options.

We also have no idea what's going to happen to Windfury in its transition to a non-weapon buff; this may have a strong impact on warrior DPS.

#29 PsyBomb

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 02:24 PM

One thing I am concerned about when it comes to the prot tree is the fact that "Defiance" seems to have been removed.

This talent gave "15% more threat generated from attacks while in defensive stance and 6 expertise".

The 6 expertise I'm not overly bothered about, but 15% threat removal kind of destroys tanking for us.

Anyone any ideas if this will be put in somewhere else? I.e. When you are in defensive stance you just generate more threat without having to talent for it?
Or if it will be trainable tor something?


According to Wikidot, Defensive Stance grants 45% extra threat now. Essentially, the same as having defiance before without having to drop talent points into it. Between this and Shield Slam being trainable, non-prot tanks just got a massive boost to non-raid tanking.
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#30 dr_AllCOM3

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 03:19 PM

Crushings are gone in WotLK.

The prot tree looks very nice, they really made it better this time.
I don't like the arms/fury trees. Besides Titan's Grip the talents are boring or pvp toys.

#31 Onyki

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 04:26 PM

Crush are gone but does someone know if Blizzard wants to add new similar mechanics?

#32 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 04:29 PM

It's highly doubtful, they've acknowledged that crushings are a very problematic mechanic for players to work against and introduce a lot of random tank deaths that would be otherwise preventable. Crushings and anything like them are more than likely gone forever.

#33 Insidious

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 04:48 PM

In addition to what was said about the 2h weaps having far more stats than the 1h'ers, the addition of a WF proc to Titan's grip could be devastating. And if totems help raid wide? Sure they will help all melee, but the slow 2h weaps with high damage, procting wf? I'm not sure of the math, but it sounds sick.

#34 PsyBomb

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:15 PM

Almost forgot that WF totem is becoming a buff rather than a weapon pulse, so it enables the use of weight/sharpening stones for us. Actually, thinking about it, that favors quicker weapons overall, but not by a spectacular amount.
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#35 Machiavelli1780

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:26 PM

Agree/Disagree: 1 two-handed weapon is no longer a valid PVE spec in WOTLK.

Despite waiting for other details to be fleshed out in testing, it seems that all the best PVE combinations involve dual-wielding. The previous point of Arms PVE was to gain blood frenzy. It was to benefit the raid while finding an alternative source for dps in getting improved slam and 3/5 flurry. Now with enough points to be able to go to 5/5 flurry bloodthirst and possible improved berserker, I don't see any possible PVE reason to wield a single two-hander. It would seem that the viable combinations will either be 2 one-handed weapons going into arms blood frenzy, or 2 two-handed weapons deep into fury with Titan's grip.

#36 Ashlan

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:38 PM

I'm looking at the new blocking-stuff:

# Improved Shield Block - Reduces the cooldown of your Shield Block ability by 5/10 sec.
# Shield Block - Increases your chance to block and the amount blocked by 100% for 5 sec, but will only block 1 attack. 30 sec cooldown.
# Shield Mastery - Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10/20/30%.
# Critical Block - Your successful blocks have a 10/20/30% chance to block double the normal amount.

So if I skill Shield Mastery and Critical Block, I get a medium final BV of about: BV*1.3*1.3 = BV*1.69. That's nice, very nice!

Shield Block itself ... well, a guaranteed block each 20secs of the amount BV*1.69*2 = BV*3.38. What could be the intention behind this? Some kind of a mini-last-stand (BV*3.38 .. this will only be half of a raid-boss' hit at 80, or even much less)? So, will Shield Block become useless? Or is there any information floating around, that BV will go up very much?

#37 PSGarak

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:40 PM

I would agree that there is likely no situation where 1x2H is optimal, although whether it's inviable or not is uncertain. I would guess it might still be competetive at lower gear levels, before DW or 2x2H starts to realize its better AP and hit scaling, sorta similar to how affliction was still good in early TBC.


There is absolutely no solid evidence to back them up, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see some easing up on the requirements to become crit-immune. It falls in line with the removal of crushing blows, and the movement towards more transparent mechanics than the magic number of 490, and would be a consistent alternate explanation of the change of Anticipation. I wouldn't even put the removal of Defense Skill altogether beyond the realm of possibility, although again I have no supporting evidence whatsoever and no idea how else they would have you remove crits. This would also mean that the feral druid -crit% talent is purely a PvP toy.
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#38 Fellwraith

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 06:21 PM

I would agree that there is likely no situation where 1x2H is optimal, although whether it's inviable or not is uncertain. I would guess it might still be competetive at lower gear levels, before DW or 2x2H starts to realize its better AP and hit scaling, sorta similar to how affliction was still good in early TBC.

I'm not so sure about that. You need a lot of hit rating and crit rating to make 2x2h viable. The rage generation with it is going to be very spikey, making it considerably more difficult to play well. How much does it cost you to make TG work properly and could those stats have been spent on more crit, ap, or expertise? Bloodfrenzy and trauma's value will depend on how much the rest of the raid scales. By the look of things, the new arm's builds have a lot of raid utility that the TG build doesn't get (stronger offtanks, other situational abilities).

I also think crit is a bigger deal than haste for a TG build. You get the instant slams, increased flurry uptime and better returns from impale/deep wounds. Similar to how MS/slam doesn't usually want to go below a ~2.5 adjusted swing speed, you'll have target numbers for a TG build that you don't want your MH to go below (factoring in 5/5 Flurry). I don't think you'd ever see a TG build using heroic strike like you might see with a bloodfrenzy build today.

A lot of the item budget in those 2h weapons in TBC is put into stamina. That doesn't do a whole heck of a lot for your dps.


Separately, I think it would make a lot of sense for them to adjust the str to block value conversion rate for warriors and prot paladins. It allows them to simplify tanking plate drops and it also benefits your other tanking abilities as they scale with AP.

#39 Nite_Moogle

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 06:28 PM

Agree/Disagree: 1 two-handed weapon is no longer a valid PVE spec in WOTLK.

Despite waiting for other details to be fleshed out in testing, it seems that all the best PVE combinations involve dual-wielding. The previous point of Arms PVE was to gain blood frenzy. It was to benefit the raid while finding an alternative source for dps in getting improved slam and 3/5 flurry. Now with enough points to be able to go to 5/5 flurry bloodthirst and possible improved berserker, I don't see any possible PVE reason to wield a single two-hander. It would seem that the viable combinations will either be 2 one-handed weapons going into arms blood frenzy, or 2 two-handed weapons deep into fury with Titan's grip.


The way things stand now the strongest build is probably deep fury that skips Titan Grip, but I would be pretty surprised if arms is completely uncompetitive when it's all said and done. Strength of Arms is a little underpowered and Bull Rush is incredibly stupid, but it wouldn't take much adjustment to make the tree appealing, and it's going to be quite good for offtanks the way it is. Remember that picking up Trauma is going to improve all bleeds by 30% which will make Feral druids extra happy and if Bloodbath and Hemo and possibly hunter pets see some improvement the raid-wide synergy is going to be fairly substantial, even in a 10 man. It all hinges on what happens with Slam.

Going deep enough for blood frenzy with a primarily fury build is actually pretty terrible as you dump a large number of wasted points in to the arms tree to get that deep (going from 17 to 33 with only 6-8 points that are really any good), but a 26/x/x weapon spec/fury build is likely going to be very good.

#40 Machiavelli1780

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:56 PM

Going deep enough for blood frenzy with a primarily fury build is actually pretty terrible as you dump a large number of wasted points in to the arms tree to get that deep (going from 17 to 33 with only 6-8 points that are really any good), but a 26/x/x weapon spec/fury build is likely going to be very good.



Initial Foundation considerations:

1)Obtaining Blood Frenzy for Raid DPS benefit
2) If using 2 1h'ers, they would be both be respectively axes or swords for the appropriate specialization

Question then is: Would a 2h spec do better dps or would 2 1H'ers spec do better dps? Not overall best warrior dps, but best Blood frenzy DPS.

My thinking remains the 2 1h'ers:

A) The only talent I see in the arms tree progression that benefits 2H'ers and NOT 1H'ers is two-handed weapon specialization.
B) Sudden death would seem to benefit the rage regeneration/refresh capability of 2 1h'ers. Execute is not that great to work into a rotation using 1 2h'er
C) Being able to get 5/5 dual wield specialization is a nice boost and something that is not currently available
D) In BC currently, Fury DPS beats Arms DPS (single targets anyway). Given the requirement of this query again for Blood Frenzy, the 10 points available to add into Fury would seem to benefit dual wielding rather than 1 2h'er.

Something like this: Yarr! Tools :: Warrior 8472




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