Jump to content


Photo

WotLK talent Preview/Discussion


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3494 replies to this topic

#41 Darmon

Darmon

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 78 posts

Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:13 PM

I'm looking at the new blocking-stuff:

# Improved Shield Block - Reduces the cooldown of your Shield Block ability by 5/10 sec.
# Shield Block - Increases your chance to block and the amount blocked by 100% for 5 sec, but will only block 1 attack. 30 sec cooldown.
# Shield Mastery - Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10/20/30%.
# Critical Block - Your successful blocks have a 10/20/30% chance to block double the normal amount.

So if I skill Shield Mastery and Critical Block, I get a medium final BV of about: BV*1.3*1.3 = BV*1.69. That's nice, very nice!

Shield Block itself ... well, a guaranteed block each 20secs of the amount BV*1.69*2 = BV*3.38. What could be the intention behind this? Some kind of a mini-last-stand (BV*3.38 .. this will only be half of a raid-boss' hit at 80, or even much less)? So, will Shield Block become useless? Or is there any information floating around, that BV will go up very much?


A protection warrior is first and foremost Raid Main Tank. 5 man tank, 10 man tank are diluted version of raid MT.

In this context, i found the new shield block mechanic quite useless. Take a current end-game boss. Hits 7k each 2.5 sec. Does it matter you block 1/2 of his attack each 20 sec?

I see the new talents as watering down evn more the Raid MT role. Shield Break? does anyone see this as a good tool versus a boss? Sure it is a tool, but it's an unsharpened tool.

Loosing 6 expertise, gaining 15% crit to HS/TC/Cleave. There is a lot of expertise in game atm, the newest tank gear comes with loads of it, and probably will keep it so in expansion. This seems a good trade off, but considering position in talent tree, is an easy accesible talent for any warrior.

Imp Revenge with 25% more dmg. Revenge it's a skill that does not scale with anything. Would be usefull if revenge would scale with something. Maybe a filler if there are spare talent points (doubt that).

Imp Disarm. 10% more dmg taken by target. Unless they change bosses to be disarmable, it's of no use in raid.

Vigilance, replacing Shield Slam. That talent seems at same time very good and very bad. But in raid you can put it on OT, and that's all. 5% dodge to 1 person. i find it really bad.

Rage from dodge/parry. Everything is better than nothing

Safeguard. When tanking, intervene/intercept are used when something went bad. And in a raid if something went bad, then it's a half wipe. I can't see it's use in raid enviroment, except for encounters tailored for it. It's more a pvp talent thrown in the mix to apease those who consider protection a viable and competitive build in pvp area.

Sword and board. 10% of free SSlam. no ideea really. looks good, but i like things with as little random factor as possible. I stole this from someone else: The tank is the bringer of order into chaos. I tend to plan ahead next 1-2 skills to use in the rotation, prioritizing some, skipping others. S&B procs, i have 1 free SSlam. I'll probably use it, skiping a skill in regular rotation. An ideea would be to take the extra SSlam off the GCD.

Shockwave. I personally don't think it will be the new alpha and omega of prot warriors, we'll have to wait and see how it performs in raid enviroment.

Will have to wait for beta and NDA lift, to find out more. I just hope it won't be another situation as at TBC begin. After TBC release , fixing rage generation problems, devastate changed to add sunder effect, TC in def stance are just a few changes that come to mind and which for me made a huge impact in prot warrior gameplay and performances.

#42 Steveharris

Steveharris

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 60 posts

Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:44 PM

Imp Revenge with 25% more dmg. Revenge it's a skill that does not scale with anything. Would be usefull if revenge would scale with something. Maybe a filler if there are spare talent points (doubt that).

Safeguard. When tanking, intervene/intercept are used when something went bad. And in a raid if something went bad, then it's a half wipe. I can't see it's use in raid enviroment, except for encounters tailored for it. It's more a pvp talent thrown in the mix to apease those who consider protection a viable and competitive build in pvp area.


I think Imp Revenge's scaling is the talent; 25% more damage could equal 25% more threat? Safeguard could be very useful when the tank needs a bit of a mitigation buffer. Have the OT intervene the MT on a pull, and your MT eats a few hits at an extra -20% dmg.

#43 Montegomery

Montegomery

    Aloof Aggravator

  •  Patrons
  • 3,634 posts

Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:46 PM

Imp Disarm. 10% more dmg taken by target. Unless they change bosses to be disarmable, it's of no use in raid.


Attumen the Huntsman was disarmable! >.>

#44 kalbear

kalbear

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,161 posts

Posted 01 July 2008 - 10:19 PM

An interesting side note here. 5% dodge from vigiliance is a huge boost to a tank. So much so that given the choice between a warrior tanking and not tanking, I wonder if it would ever be the right choice to have the warrior tanking. Giving up 5% dodge vs another class tanking and getting that dodge? I wonder if (similar to druids) warriors will be less valuable as tanks in min-max situations simply because they're so much better when not tanking.

#45 Katrael

Katrael

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 01 July 2008 - 11:30 PM

Personally I'm viewing it more as a benefit for multi tank encounters than a threat to prot warrior ability on a single target.

That is to say, thinking about every fight I've done so far in TBC, I can only think of a few that only feature a single tank.

-edit: in fact, on a two tank encounter, if tank stacking is really going to be an issue, you'd more likely see the use of two prot warriors so each can vigilance the other, rather than the warriors getting replaced by a different tank class.

#46 Hraithmar

Hraithmar

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 01 July 2008 - 11:48 PM

Thoughts on Yarr! Tools :: Warrior 8472 ?

Exact same play style as nowadays, just pressing Slam every time Bloodsurge procs.

#47 Guest_acx_*

Guest_acx_*
  • Guests

Posted 02 July 2008 - 12:59 AM

Is Shield Slam on the same cooldown as MS/BT?

#48 gooorack

gooorack

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 01:26 AM

How viable is sudden death going to be on a 2* 1H duel weilding build for raiding. The aim is basically stack crit and haste to proc sudden death as much as possible and execute spam the entire fight? Havent done any theorycrafting on it but a build like this would be interesting: Linky

#49 Fellwraith

Fellwraith

    It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle...

  • Members
  • 6,808 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 02:24 AM

Safeguard is actually really powerful if the wording on it is accurate. For the next 6 seconds I can make the current tank take 60% less damage? That seems pretty damn powerful for things like stomp, corrosion, shear, enrage, fel rage, et al. Getting the ability to remove snares is a nice bonus, especially in places like the spiderwing v2. That paired with vigilance makes warriors really useful as OTs.

Suddendeath strikes me as a pvp talent. Execute doesn't scale, it has a 125% threat mod (unless they change it), and the DPR on it is poor. The primary reason you use execute is because you want to dump rage and your other abilities are on CD.

A) The only talent I see in the arms tree progression that benefits 2H'ers and NOT 1H'ers is two-handed weapon specialization.

Overpower, deep wounds, sword specialization, mace specialization, and impale all provide much bigger dps benefits to a 2h weapon than a 1h weapon (re-read the wording on those weapon specialization talents, they've changed).

#50 PSGarak

PSGarak

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,390 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 02:56 AM

So I was looking at the code for Rend (Rank 10):

Spell 47465
Name: Rend
Description: Wounds the target causing them to bleed for $o1 damage plus an additional ${0.06*5*(($MWB+$mwb)/2+$AP/14*$MWS)} (based on weapon damage) over $d. If the target becomes Enraged, Rend causes four times the normal damage.
Description2: Bleeding for 60 plus a percentage of weapon damage every $t1 seconds. If the target becomes Enraged, Rend causes four times the normal damage.

(source: http://urlshort.com/...p?spellid=47465)

Looking closely at the code, that looks like 30% weapon damage over the course of the DoT, 6% per tick. Throw in bloodletting (75%) and trauma (30%), and it's 68.25% weapon damage for 10 rage, ignoring armor and unnormalized, but not capable of critting. Compare with just over 5% of weapon damage over the full course currently, according to wowhead. Am I reading this code right, and if I am, does that make Rend a worthwhile spell for actual damage use finally?
Posted Image

#51 Kaan

Kaan

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 179 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 03:32 AM

Yarr! Tools :: Warrior 8472

I think this would be the most viable DW-Fury spec for now. You retain sweeping strikes and gain sword spec and bloodsurge. TG is too unbalanced/difficult to play so I ignored it for now (though, when slam is changed to not reseting swing timer, I could think of talenting 2/2 Slam and playing TG with Slam/BT/WW>HS Cycle).
Last talent point can be spend into 1% more Precision, 1/3 Furious Resolve (-4% Threat and +2% stamina) or 1/2 Whirlwind .

#52 Nite_Moogle

Nite_Moogle

    I prefer the term treasure hunting

  • Allied Members
  • 11,288 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 03:56 AM

Is Shield Slam on the same cooldown as MS/BT?


Yes.

#53 Fugazi

Fugazi

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 04:31 AM

The more I look at safeguard, the more it looks like it will push warriors in to an offtank role instead of a main tank role. Or it will just get nerfed. It parses out to around 12% overall mitigation on your main tank if used every 30 seconds, and it lets you select when to mitigate the damage. It seems powerful enough that encounters with heavy tank damage will either be too easy with it, or balanced around requiring it.

#54 Jagiya

Jagiya

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 370 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 06:07 AM

The speculation pointing at how underwhelming Sword & Board is would easily be remedied if it procced an additional Shield Slam; ie. Sword Specialisation/Windfury.

I'd personally prefer a 2% chance to proc an extra (rageless) Shield Slam on every Devastate over the current model.

#55 Anasurimbor

Anasurimbor

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 10:22 AM

No, 45% threat isn't essentially the same as now. Now we have 49,5% because it has to multiplied (1.3*1.15=1.495). So it would be a nerf.

#56 Ugato

Ugato

    Fun Sponge

  •  Patrons
  • 2,268 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 05:56 PM

Overpower, deep wounds, sword specialization, mace specialization, and impale all provide much bigger dps benefits to a 2h weapon than a 1h weapon (re-read the wording on those weapon specialization talents, they've changed).


Well, I have to take exception to this. Overpower is a bad example for min-maxing purposes, because you'll be purposefully removing chances for you to use this ability (read: moar expertise). Deep wounds... unless they change the way it operates, that's just laughable.

I don't see any difference in the descriptions of the weapon specs, even after looking up current ones and comparing. Perhaps the Talent calcuator for WotLK talents only shows the old description. I don't know. The only catch for me is knowing if a 2h sword and DW swords would end up (**relatively, adjusted for weapon speed of course) with the same number of procs. If another weapon adds its own procs, then I'm guessing OH proc'ing MH hits will help balance the two.

Axe is a flat + to a stat, and thus irrelevant. Mace is just irrelevant to the PvE discussion.

Impale... Well, it's a flat 20%. That's the same argument as "You shouldn't use BL and Drums at the same time" without even the disclaimer that it's true if it pushes you under the minimum GCD for casters.

**e: are sword spec hits relative to speed? Even if they aren't, the OH proc question still applies.
e2: I've confused myself thoroughly now on the sword spec procs. I'll come back to this later.

#57 Nite_Moogle

Nite_Moogle

    I prefer the term treasure hunting

  • Allied Members
  • 11,288 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 06:04 PM

Axe is a flat + to a stat, and thus irrelevant.

Incorrect. Axe spec has been improved to also increase the amount of damage done by critical hits by 5% in addition to granting 5% crit. This brings it more in line with sword spec.

Impale... Well, it's a flat 20%.

Whirlwind is the only attack that deals offhand yellow damage. All other special attacks are main hand. Trauma is also going to improve bleed damage by 30%, so don't write off the free damage from Deep Wounds.

#58 Ugato

Ugato

    Fun Sponge

  •  Patrons
  • 2,268 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 06:14 PM

Incorrect. Axe spec has been improved to also increase the amount of damage done by critical hits by 5% in addition to granting 5% crit. This brings it more in line with sword spec.


Ohhh that's what I missed. That's pretty nice.

Yeah, if they make bleeds viable, it's an entirely different story. If they make the concept of refreshing dots without inadvertantly killing a tick a universal one, then Deep Wounds suddenly becomes more useful.

Heroic Strike, BT and WW are the 3 specials you use for Fury dps. Realisticly there is one ability that hits with the OH, one that doesn't, and one that's a special case. BT hits are comparable to a 2h, WW you mention, and HS falls under the "less damage, but more hits" category.

e: more, I really shouldn't be posting now, but hey. I'm addicted.

HS is debateable, and I'm even willing to concede the point, but it'd be a pretty small difference. Slam would be a deciding factor in the 2h vs 1h idea, but this is assuming slam won't reset the swing timer, in which case you wouldn't use it in a Fury rotation without godlike reflexes.

But, now that I think about it, this is rather pointless debating... The real determining factors will be: How much bleeds are going to get buffed (including the dot-tick mechanic question), and if Titan Grip will be viable (as, in its current form, it doesn't seem to be).

Impale is a given (or a toss-up, as it is in its current form for Fury specs: Impale vs. Defiance, depending on your expertise level) or at least a different (pointless) argument from 2h vs. 1h.

Also, since I'm on a roll here, I'll just go on record: If they simply change Slam as they're changing Steady Shot (which I think would warrant removing the Improved Slam talent, though that's another argument altogether), then I'll be a staunch supporter of Arms DPS.

#59 Pitbuller

Pitbuller

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 626 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 06:14 PM

Also sword spec proc 5s CD.(slower is better but not that much)

Tg is +-0 dps talents with auto attack, Bt, WW rotation. But you get bigger instant slams, +10damage(2h spec) but yuo lose 10talent points. If you can get 1% damage per talent point then Tg will lose(choises are some combination presicion, impale, 5/5 weapon spec, imp execute, sudden death, furious resolve, heroic leap)

2h spec and bigger WW/slam vs -20% haste and 10 talent points?


Edit: WW is 162.5% weapon damage instant attack. With Tg this is biggest special you have.
Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

#60 Oloo

Oloo

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 02 July 2008 - 09:03 PM

Just looking through the wotlk wiki an I noticed the Anger Management change:

Anger Management - "while in combat" removed from description.

Is that right? That we'll passively gain rage no mater where we are or what we're doing? Does that mean we'll be able to start every boss fight with 100 rage? Start every arena with 20?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users