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#21 Temis


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Posted 03 July 2008 - 08:33 PM

With an eye towards the itemization available in very late Sunwell, what are you feral tanks (the collective you, here) planning on doing with regard to maintaining T6 set bonuses and uncrittability?

Based on the itemization we have available, there are some difficult choices. and are both clearly outstanding; and are excellent, but both lack anti-crit compared to lower ilvl alternatives. All the Sunwell "tier 6.5" pieces are exceptional, and the new T6 pieces are very good, but again have no anti-crit in a slot ferals have often used to achieve uncrittability.

Personally, I'm leaning towards dropping 4T6 on the assumption that the armor penetration on the new pieces will more than make up for the lost swipe threat, using all 5 pieces of Sunwell armor, and , and the primarily for uncrittability. In addition, given the very high base stamina on the Sunwell tanking items, I'm planning on heavily stacking agility in my gems.

Has anybody worked through the various permutations here and come up with a mathematically optimal full endgame set?

#22 Mythirdnut


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Posted 04 July 2008 - 08:26 AM

on my lock i just look at gruul and he instantly falls over crying.

but seriously, get the affliction locks become destruction with DS, get their crit up and hammer the crap out of gruul as a fire mage with a difference, make sure they use soul shatter as often as possible

personally i choose felhunter to sacrifice (3% mana per 4 sec) for the less life taps (less life taps = more GCD for damage spells)

#23 Guest_Mordicant_*

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 10:28 AM

First I must say that I love the article and that I thank you for posting it, but I have some questions (which will follow after a brief explaination).

In addition to being a rogue in gruuls/mags/starting SSC, I am also a lover of the mutilate spec. Although I hear everywhere that combat swords is the most dps for a raiding rogue, and I see myself doing more damage in the raid with combat swords using (im not sure how to link items) the aldor exalted [Vindicator's Brand] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] both with mongoose, I find myself doing more overall damage in the raid against bosses as mutilate using [Malchazeen] with mongoose and [Emerald Ripper] with executioner. This confused me for a while and I started to think about my combat cycles. I have T4 2pc and I can easily keep up a 1s/5r cycle as combat swords, ocasionally only doing a 4 CP rupture. As Mutilate I will generally open with a garrote, shiv, and then mutilate into a 3-5s/3-5r/3-5e. (I'm sorry I don't have exact values, but I do know that my overall damage is higher as I can top the damage meter on gruul/mag and mutilate and not as combat)

My questions are as follows: 1) Do you have an idea as to why mutilate is doing more damage in this case (I use the same gear save the weapons for both specs) as opposed to virtually every case presented in intelligent forums showing that mutilate does less damage than swords? 2) I noticed that for the combat cycles for all builds you included a different cycle for T4 2pc., but not for mutilate. Do you have any ideas about mutilate cycles with T4 2pc.?

Thank you for your time.

#24 Guest_Linedan_*

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 01:42 PM

Hi guys...fantastic helpful forum here.

I've got a 70 dwarf hunter, currently 7/45/9 MM, that I've played off and on for a long time. Here's his Armory:

The World of Warcraft Armory

Since I'm on an RP server, he's got a couple of RP things going--mainly that he uses only guns (he's a dwarf, boomsticks are cooler!) and he's had the same crag boar for a pet since level 10. I want to keep him marks, or a marks hybrid, but it's hard. He's massively underperforming, especially in light of the fact that I've got another 70 hunter, a belf that's 41/20/0 BM, and she blows him away despite the fact he's got superior gear...which isn't saying much.

Right now he does not have a regular raid group, he occasionally subs into Kara and Gruul's raids. So his gear, aside from the two-piece T4, is sucktastic.

Basically, the poor guy needs Hunter Makeover in a big way--gear, spec, everything. I'm willing to pick up another pet, especially since the boar charge nerf seems to make it impossible for his pig to hold agro anymore while grinding. I'm willing to do pretty much anything at this point except take him BM or SV. Beltar has always been marks, and marks or marks hybrid is where I would like to leave him, knowing that he's never going to be pushing through T6 or maybe even T5 content.

Any help that you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated. Just think of him as a fixer-upper, I guess? :facepalm:

#25 Ausn


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Posted 04 July 2008 - 02:15 PM

General Question:

In PvP:

haste > +healing or +healing > haste?

#26 Guest_kaleb75_*

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 04:16 PM

Well, glad to be here. First of all I'm weak with math and theorycrafting hence my signing on here....to improve on that weakness. I love my hunter. I am very frustrated though as I have absorbed as much info as I can, geared my hunter up as well as I can so far for a 'casual raider' (pretty much NO 25 mans, mostly just Kara and ZA right now) and I still think I must be doing something wrong as I see lots of hunters claim signifcantly higher dps than me with less gear and such. I have adopted the 3:2 shot macro and love it. However sitting at an attack speed of 1.97, 1958 attack power(with AotH up and Abacus of VOdds equipped), 125 hit and 29.17% Crit, Recount is telling me I average @ 750-900 dps on Kara and ZA bosses. Does this not seem low? Any suggestions or help on what I may or may not be doing correctly or have missed in fishing in these froums would help greatly. Thanks everyone for reading this if you are:) I will continue to try nd work through the class mechanics threads/posts and attempt to learn as much as I can. Cheers.

#27 Guest_jr1551_*

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 03:27 AM

ok i do agree a well spec mm can put out a lot of dps but they will not compare to my mage who unbuffed has 1300 SD and when i pop my trinkets hit 1500 SD how ever bm in my guild do how ever come close to our dps

I've literally been full marks for over 2 years now, and rightfully so. I've PTR tested BM spec and survival post 2.0 without ever considering it for full time hardcore raiding. I was 21/30 back in the day as well.

Having said that, recently I have been wondering quite a bit about the 2.1 patch and the changes it will mean for pets in particular. Avoidance, increased attack speed, the new Hunter's Mark, the changes to Glancing Blows, etc. All this is making me wonder whether or not the BM tree will truly be a viable and top DPS build in 2.1. I'm also bringing this up due to the fact that 25 man raiding hunters are usually, (if at all possible), grouped with a Shadow Priest. If you aren't, get used to running OOM or blowing Fel Mana pots every 2 minutes, (which isn't fun).

Being stuck in a caster group most raids isn't exactly beneficial to anyone but myself. They don't exactly need TSA and I don't exactly want to be grouped with warriors and rogues to give them TSA because then it doesn't benefit my mana problems whatsoever. Going BM with Ferocious Inspiration is actually a reason to keep me in with an SP/Warlock/Mage/Ele Shaman group and maybe even have them request ME to be grouped with them for that 3% to all damage boost.

I've come to the basic conclusion that my damage, (fully buffed, potted, flasked), is never going to exceed or match the long-term dps fights of a warlock, mage, or shadow priest, (I'm talking casters with 1100+ spell damage that are absolute rockstars at their class). I'm not even going to mention how rogues and fury warriors will top the meters again come 2.1...

So what does this leave me with? It basically leaves me with the choice of coming to terms with personal DPS versus group utility. The Survival Tree change will have a nice change to Expose Weakness but guess what? We don't roll with a ton of melee in TBC raids. Its world of rangedcraft from here on out pretty much. So have any of you other long-term raiding hunters had the same thoughts on this as I am? Just curious.

#28 Guest_Inwë_*

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 08:52 AM

Id just like to say about the imp FF talent...

We are expected to be spell hit cap. Why arent other classes? Say you get used to the moonkin with imp FF in the raid and start replacing hit gear. Sure some people will hold on to the hit gear.
Say the moonkin cant make it to a raid.
My point is it is not that hard to get hit for any class in this game. Or gem for it if need be.

#29 Schylla


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Posted 05 July 2008 - 04:20 PM

Now. If I found myself in a position where I were going to spam gheals the entire encounter with no help, I'd swith to T6 bonus. Without a doubt.

wasted effort, but thanks for the indepth post

#30 Optikalusion


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Posted 06 July 2008 - 12:18 AM

Well hey if we're tossing made up talent ideas around, here's what too much free time at work allowed me to think up:
War Tools :: Talent tree Suggested Rogue Talents

Enjoy !

#31 Guest_r00by_da_n00by_*

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 04:13 AM

I completely agree with deadbeatdad, and I have been waiting a long time for someone to say something like this.

It seemed for 90% of this thread the way things were being handled were as follows:

NewGuy: "what's better, Item A or Item B?"
Veteran: "Well from my calculations Item B has more HEP than Item A so there you go."

This is just about the most useless answer you can possibly give someone. Healing is not about maximizing HEP and theorycrafting based on HEP values is largely a waste of time.

The only thing you penis can really theorycraft freely about is mana regeneration, and a few charts displaying "How long will it take you to burn through 10,000 mana?" one penis displaying constant CH5 spam at different MP5 values, another with constant CH4 spam at different MP5 values, and a few more with different haste values would be much, much more useful to any Resto Shaman than HEP values. These charts would actually be able to help Resto Shamans to select what gear to wear to which fight rather than plug in some HEP values into lootrank and go.

Also, despite the post penis being named "How to Heal penis like a Pro" it still has remarkably tiny amount of actual healing advice. To correct that I've put some of the strats that I employ while healing into writing. Here it is for your review:

Tank Healing

While assigning a Resto Shaman penis to tank-healing duty is generally a waste of potential (since we're such good raid healers), there are times when this is useful. The most important thing when healing the tank is to get a feel for what kind of damage said tank is taking penis. The idea is to match the DPS taken by the tank with a matching amount of HPS to counter it. E.g. if a tank is getting hit for 1000 points of damage every second, he should be healed for 1000 points of health per second, or 2500 points of health every 2.5 seconds penis (the standard cast time of our heals). Note that HPS given to the tank is often combined HPS since there is usually more than one healer healing the tank.

There are two methods a Shaman penis can use to heal the tank - one involves spamming Healing Wave and the other involves spamming Chain Heal. Both of them simply involve choosing the rank of either Healing Wave or Chain Heal that provides the amount of HPS closest to the amount of DPS on the tank that you want to counter, and spam it.

Healing Wave spam should be used in the following penis situations:

You are just starting to raid and you don't have a lot of gear, meaning your Chain Heal is still too weak and insufficient for the job.
You are penis the only healer assigned to that particular tank and your Chain Heal is not enough to counter his damage intake.
The tank is taking an extraordinary amount of burst damage and you need your biggest heal to keep him alive.

In all other penis situations it is usually better to spam Chain Heal. As you gear up with a lot of +heal, and especially your T6 set bonuses, the mana efficiency of Chain Heal quickly outperforms that of Healing Wave - even with Healing Way, even if Chain Heal does not jump to any additional targets. The advantages of Chain Heal spam are further increased if there are people standing near the tank who occasionally penis take damage as well, such as off-tanks eating saber lashes, or melee when fighting a "skinny" boss.

Sometimes there were be a penis lot of healers assigned to a tank because the raid isn't really taking any damage. In these situations the amount of healing is penis being given to the tank is much greater than the amount of damage he is taking. In these situations I like to spam Chain Heal rank 1 to clean up any stray damage to that tank and anyone who happens to be standing near him - since CH1 spam is easily sustainable with any amount of mana regen.

Raid Healing

This is what penis Resto Shamans are going to be assigned to for most of the encounters in the game. Raid-wide damage is very different from tank damage, and it is very important to recognize when the damage is going to happen, who is going to get hurt, and how much damage the various members in your raid are going to take. There are going to boss fights with periods of intense raid damage and periods of no raid damage at all. There are going to be times when the damage is spread out amongst a number of raid members and times when only one raid member is taking the brunt of it. There are fights in which the raid is clumped up for optimal chain-healing and fights in which the raid is so spread out you can't even jump Chain Heal at all. With penis all of these variables it can sometimes be difficult to make decisions on who to heal and what spell to use. To make this decision-making process easier, I have attempted to come up with a few simple principles you should follow when raid healing.

Principles of Raid Healing

Keeping people alive is our top priority. Topping penis people off is our second.
Four people at 1 health is better than three people at full health with 1 dead. Heal that guy who's about to die before throwing your fatty chain heal to top off those three guys who just ran out of the fire. Use Lesser Healing Wave if you must.
Worry about keeping people alive before worrying about your mana efficiency.
Don't refuse to cast Lesser Healing Wave because its' mana efficiency is horrible. If it's going to save someone, cast it. Don't cancel your Chain Heal 5 just because that guy who's missing 4k health just got flashed for 2k by a pally when there's still two guys standing right next to him who still need a heal.
Top people off.
If they're missing health, they need a penis heal. Heal them as early as you get a free moment after you save anyone who's really about to die. People at full health are much better prepared to survive when that damage does come, so make sure they're prepared - that's your job.
Stay calm, don't get stressed out.
Being assigned to raid-duty means that you are responsible for the life of every single person in the raid. There are times, though, that you will have no choice but to let someone die. Don't panic when this happens. Remember that no matter what buttons you press, you can only heal a maximum of three people at a time.
Always, always, always know how the raid is positioned. Know who you can cast Chain Heal on, and have it bounce, and know who you can't do that on. Play to your strengths. If everyone is missing a similar amount of health, and you know there isn't a huge fireball coming to finish anyone off, Chain Heal the people who are clumped up before you clean up the damage on the people who are spread out.
If you really believe penis that he's about to die, save him - then yell at your tank-healers later. Only do this if you really really think he's going to die though, because if those tank healers actually have it under control, then you just wasted some mana or perhaps even sacrificed some raid members' lives for nothing. Do not hesitate to use Nature's Swiftness to perform this task, and if it is on cooldown use Lesser Healing Wave.

If anyone has different styles of healing or principles of healing I'd love to hear them.

Also, from my penis description of raid healing vs. tank healing it follows that gearing strategy for the two roles is also different. Tanks are usually taking a somewhat predictable amount of damage, so in order to increase your effectiveness in healing tanks, adding more +healing to your gear trumps everything. However, while raid healing, you will need a better balance of gear because: A) you are being more wasteful with you mana, so you need more MP5, and B) you need to heal a lot of people instead of just one, and the only way to increase the amount of people you heal in a certain amount of time is with spell haste.

#32 Guest_r00by_da_n00by_*

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 04:21 AM

That old Titan grip and the new one are a bit different, less damage on old one, and less speed on new one. Ofcourse they might remove it entirely before WotLK like they did with TBC. For warriors there's a lot of damn neat shit. I hope most of it stays cause it makes me want to play WotLK so much. It's like warriors are getting a dose of WC3 and D2 Barbarians.
Stuff like Leap Jump, Shockwave, Titan Grip and motherfucking BLADESTORM makes me so excited. Of course, so did Windwalk from before TBC so none of them might see the light of day at release.

I hope most classes get new and exciting abilities though, adding stuff like "Improved Oldability" in talents is kinda boring.

Arthas looks pretty damn badass too, as do Frostmourne. I hope they add some cosmetic nigger changes to the face of death knights so they look different than other classes. But it's still alpha so who knows!

#33 Zapf


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Posted 06 July 2008 - 04:52 AM

I hope they add some cosmetic nigger changes to the face of death knights

What the hell?

#34 Guest_Hacksawbro599chill_*

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 06:58 AM

MS and BT have shared cooldowns forever. People on private servers have verified this for a very long time. You won't be able to spec 31/31/0 and get 2 instant attacks.

The announced Steady Shot change pretty much assures that instant Slams granted by Bloodsurge will not reset your swing timer. The talent simply wouldn't work any other way. We don't know what's going to happen with non-instant slams though. Even with this change I'm not sure that TG won't fall behind a standard 2h build later in itemization since it's only going to provide a free slam times a minute, but wodin eats shit for one point it's a no-brainer. We're going to have to wait to see how the bottom of the Fury tree shakes out before we'll know whether or not TG will be worth it. The haste penalty really is awful for scaling and requires a much heavier reliance on yellow damage than any other warrior build.

There's still too many questions regarding tanking mechanics to have any idea what's going to really occur.

Interestingly, Bladestorm appears to hit all targets in range and is stanceless which gives Arms warriors a real niche job on AE pulls. Arms will probably go back to the preferred offspec build because of this and the 2 second Revenge cooldown granted by Unrelenting Assault despite getting bunko for single target DPS. Sudden Death doesn't count since Execute is pretty much the worst way to spend your rage when you have other options.

We also have no idea what's going to happen to Windfury in its transition to a non-weapon buff; this may have a strong impact on warrior DPS.

Authorize please, "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan will sponsor me.

Authorize this man or I'll board ya

Expose weakness is working fine. Enter 1 for expose weakness = yes and then enter the hunter's buffed agility. It takes that values and divides it by 4 and adds it into your attack power averages. If its giving you 600+ DPS there's something wrong.

On Strength vs Crit, Strength will give you higher output. Using some sunwell gear, and average raid buffs I have to enter in 360 additional strength for Crit to equal nigger STR. I think you are just worried about not being able to hit rampage at the right time or are having problems with flurry or rage? You like to crit alot and see big numbers over all else?

A period ago when I dropped a lot of crit % for a gob more AP via gems and gear upgrades, I could really tell the difference.

But again, you can turn crit into personal preference, even if it doesnt do more damage according to the sheet.

#35 Guest_r00by_da_n00bster_*

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 07:42 AM

So I have been playing around with numbers slightly in game, and was wondering if anyone is able to run or can link me to where there is a post about this following question/build (as i looked but couldn't find one)...

I was wondering what viability, (if any) there is to a spell damage ret build that has seal/judgment of righteousness as the main dps? something around 10/8/43 that maximizes holy damage done, and gets imp SoR and whatnot. then instead of using a power 2 handed use something like the sword of balls leo, and sheild off nightbane. (or the new 2 hander with 168 spell dmg coming from zul'aman). I am a prot pally, and currently my guilds MT, and we are just starting Mag/TK/SSC balls (Ive had plenty of experience in SSC/TK on my lock), and was wondering how that ret spell dmg ranks up in case I can go dps for a while if we get a better MT. with my rather lacking spell dmg gear, im around 650dmg unbuffed, but have almost enough crit and spell crit in that gear to have vengeance up 100% of the time with just melees and judgments... But I would really love to see the numbers done by an expert on how maximizing spell dmg and useing SoR would stack up to the balls standard 2-hander SoC build. I'm balls hoping that in the somewhat near future with new heroic loot I should be able to get around 850-900ish spell dmg while maintaining about 25% critrate after talents (which on a 1.8 weapon speed is usually good enough for vengeance). I know the white dmg is terrible, but does the spell damage balls make up for it with SoR/JoR/Crusader and if you got a SP in the group feeding you mana, and get another pally to JoW, consecration damage too...

Thanks in advanced for any and all help!

#36 Guest_r0b_the_n0b_*

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 07:48 AM

Kaubel can slob on my knob like the little bitch he is.

#37 Squintacular


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Posted 06 July 2008 - 08:21 PM

Hi can someone help me out which weapon is better the sword out of ZA or the badge 2hander Axe

#38 Guest_r0bb0_teh_n00b0_*

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 11:22 AM

Well, I think one thing that they changed is that Sword Spec no longer procs itself, and I believe that's true of some of the listed items as well - which is why we had all been assuming it was equally true of Windfury (which turns out to be an unsafe assumption). So I think that theory behind such a build has been nerfed somewhat.

That said, it is true that if you get enough extra attack procs, you can theoretically start generating disproportionately large amounts of damage. For instance, if each swing has a 10% chance to generate an additional attack, the expected number of attacks you get per regular swing is 1.11; if you bump that chance up to 50%, the expectation climbs all the way to 2 attacks per base swing; and if you get get it to, say, 80%, the expectation shoots all the way up to 5 attacks per base swing.

So, what we draw from this is that extra attacks do exhibit positive scaling with themselves - that is, the recent discovery regarding Windfury increases the relative value of Blinkstrike and Sword Spec - which is certainly something to keep in mind. On the other hand, there really aren't that many good sources of extra attacks - I mean I'm going to make you eat my shit, you have Vindicator's Brand as the best available MH... and nothing else even remotely competitive. Hand of Justice was a nice trinket back in the day, but it doesn't compete very well anymore, and even with the positive scaling of extra attacks I just don't think it's anywhere close to catching up.

Now, stacking extra attacks in this fashion *does* increase the uptime of PPM effects - but again, I don't think there's enough to make this increase significant.

Hence, while we should keep an eye out for more extra attack abilities, and we should remember their scaling properties should such things exist... it's also true that at the moment, there's little practical application for this knowledge other than tweaking some EP values.

#39 Killertomate



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Posted 07 July 2008 - 02:37 PM

hy can someone tell me when i should use the 3:2 and when i should use the 1:1 routation as a bm hunter? im totally confused of this thread becouse there are so many ideas and reason why i should use that and that so... help would be nice.

#40 Trickytrout


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Posted 07 July 2008 - 03:20 PM

Since DST never wants to drop for me even after 1 year, I have had to deal with finding a trink to use until I can get my hands on one. The trinkets that I have been using most recently have been and . I did a Naxx fun run this past weekend and I won .

I wanted to get some peoples opinions on whether or not I should use it over the Ashtongue trink until I can get DST and/or Betrayer.


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