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WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion


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#21 burghy

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:46 AM

Did you see the new imp Righteous Fury? Instead of 60%, it is 90%, so tank threat is buffed.


"Improved Righteous Fury (Protection) threat bonus folded into base spell, talent still reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%."
It improves threat for paladins with no points in protection.

As for HoW, it is buffed for every situation where it is used now. And until you see it in action you won't know if the current math still applies.

#22 Pyralissa

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:52 AM

Besides the regreatable decision to put HoW on a PVE set bonus, there is nothing wrong with the spell if it's intended purpose is to kill PVE runners and as an effective PVP tool. The improved missile speed and reduced mana cost are handy upgrades. The new holy wrath is simply wonderful.

Going to be a pain keeping all these new abilities on my bars.

#23 frmorrison

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:52 AM

That's because I was too disappointed to read thoroughly, that's clearly an ugly change. The good part is it can be used to get some mana back only in PVE, but it will be a significant amount through spiritual attunement. The straight up nerf part is that the duration was decreased, and the cooldown increased making it even less useful in PVP. I'm sorry I missed this one, because it clearly makes us worse in 2s.


Blessing of Light and Greater Blessing of Light removed. Their effects have been folded into all relevant abilities. This implies Flash and HL will heal for more.

Hand of Purity (likely 51 Holy) will be some sort of instant heal.

Holy Shock has a longer range.

LoH may be usable in Arena if imp LoH remains.


There are other nice PvP things there, Paladins will be better in 2s than they are today with the new stuff.

#24 Lamaros

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:52 AM

The salvation thing is huge, atm you bring 3 Paladins for Wisdom/Might, Kings, and Salvation. I'm not sure yet what a Paladin brings to justify their 3rd spot atm. You'll want 1 with devotion aura, and 1 with imp. retribution aura. Hammer of Wrath being "buffed" still makes it absolutely useless for everyone but prot paladins. Holy paladins can't stop healing, and ret paladins are better off staying with their rotations. The hammer of justice change really bugs me, because it implies to me that paladins will have to run into combat every 30 seconds, eating more mana burns without seeing a whole lot of new mana saving techniques. I don't know exactly what I expected, but I can say I'd be a lot happier if I saw these exact changes without the salvation nerf (not saying I dislike the idea in general, but a better replacement then something that nerfs your raid dps instead of increases it), and if I saw something that all implied a fix to holy pallies in PVP. Holy shock being 40 yard range still sucks due to the mana efficiency of the spell, and the fact that we're oom in arenas before any other healers.

I just really hope Hand of Purity isn't our 51 point talent, because as it stands I really hope those new ones are something unique to pallies to inspire me again towards playing this class.

And the avenging wrath change is good for a lot of paladins, but it is a dps nerf in PVE for ret pallies. Not cool.


'Earning' a raid spot simply because you bring an overpowered buff isn't really something to be happy about. This level of complaining is on the level of warlocks complaining about the curse changing because it means one less spot for them. It's entirely beside the point. If a Paladin can't justify a spot beyond the secodn one then the class needs fixing in another way, not just given back a single buff.

We want to be in a situation were we justify two of each class based on the class skills, and then the rest of the spots get filled up based on merit or avaliability. So if a ret pally can't justify a third spot based on doing decent dps and their individual contributions then we'll want a Ret buff. If a holy pally can't justify a position based on their healing contributions then we want a holy buff. Pining for Salvation is not productive.

As for hammer of wrath being useless for ret, well: Blizzard has clearly shown that they don't really like rotations. They've put in more procs and conditional abilities in WotLK, so I assume they want to try and destory 'rotations' as much as possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see some changes that make wrath being useful.

There's a lot more stuff to come, and probably much more there already that we will see shortly. So I don't see the need to be so negative at this point.

#25 kalbear

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:53 AM

Did you see the new imp Righteous Fury? Instead of 60%, it is 90%, so tank threat is buffed. Hand of Salv makes having more Paladins more interactive, other than hitting 2 buttons.

It's the same as it was before. The only difference is that all paladins can now put out the same threat modifier that prot paladins could before. No real change.

#26 Corronach

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:02 AM

'Earning' a raid spot simply because you bring an overpowered buff isn't really something to be happy about. This level of complaining is on the level of warlocks complaining about the curse changing because it means one less spot for them. It's entirely beside the point. If a Paladin can't justify a spot beyond the secodn one then the class needs fixing in another way, not just given back a single buff.

We want to be in a situation were we justify two of each class based on the class skills, and then the rest of the spots get filled up based on merit or avaliability. So if a ret pally can't justify a third spot based on doing decent dps and their individual contributions then we'll want a Ret buff. If a holy pally can't justify a position based on their healing contributions then we want a holy buff. Pining for Salvation is not productive.

There's a lot more stuff to come, and probably much more there already that we will see shortly. So I don't see the need to be so negative at this point.


I think you should reread what you quoted,

but I can say I'd be a lot happier if I saw these exact changes without the salvation nerf (not saying I dislike the idea in general, but a better replacement then something that nerfs your raid dps instead of increases it)


I'm essentially saying the same thing you said, without Salvation it will become really up in the air if you can justify the spot of a holy paladin in a raid. Atm you'll need 1 ret for their aura, and 1 prot for their aura. The prot paladin can get kings, and the ret paladin can get might/wisdom.

There are a lot of nice changes, but a large amount of insignificant changes or negative changes. For a class that was expecting a lot of buffs, I don't think these were expected.

#27 Lamaros

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:07 AM

There are a lot of nice changes, but a large amount of insignificant changes or negative changes. For a class that was expecting a lot of buffs, I don't think these were expected.


We are yet to see any new spells or the full talent trees, and the beta has just started, so I don't think we should read too much into these patch notes. What they have shown is for the most part good (if not good enough), so it would be reasonably to expect that the stuff we are yet to see, that must necessarily be there, will also move in the right direction.

#28 flyingtoastr

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:07 AM

As for hammer of wrath being useless for ret, well: Blizzard has clearly shown that they don't really like rotations. They've put in more procs and conditional abilities in WotLK, so I assume they want to try and destory 'rotations' as much as possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see some changes that make wrath being useful.


The main thing is that technically Ret pallys don't even have a rotation right now. We have a very fluid priority system based on apparent damage/buffs (CS>Judgement>Exorcism>Consecration) to be smashed on cooldowns. Making HoW useful wouldn't change much, it would just take the spot of something else on the priority list.

I would still like HoW to simply scale with weapon damage. It is a simple and elegant solution and it can have a sweet graphic of me chucking my Cat's Edge at people. Actually I think I would play the Paladin Class regardless of anything else if I could throw my sword at people. :)

#29 Hellcry

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:09 AM

51 holy:
Beacon of Light
The target becomes a Beacon of Light, healing all party or raid members within $a1 yards for $o1 over $d.

prot:
Hammer of the Righteous
Hammer the current target and up to 2 additional nearby targets, causing $s1% of weapon damage as Holy damage. This ability causes high threat.

ret:
Divine Storm
An instant weapon attack that causes Holy damage to up to ${$i-1} enemies within $a1 yards. The Divine Storm heals up to 3 party or raid members totalling $s2% of the damage caused.


According to mothball @ wotlkwiki

#30 Anedris

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:14 AM

I like the salv change. It was always dumb to have a buff that was absolutely mandatory in any kind of serious content (including the ZA bear run) and justifying your raid slot because you click your pallypower button 9 times before the pull is hardly anything to crow about. I like the trade-off with the current damage nerf functionality, but it may be too prone to griefing - perhaps they can disable it in BGs or something.

HoW needs to stop resetting the swing timer or do a huge amount of damage to be worth using for retadins. For all we know however there may be a new talent that gives a proc on hit to get an instant cast HoW or whatnot.

#31 kalbear

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:15 AM

Between that change to salv and the tranquil air totem, there exist no global threat modifiers. That's very interesting. Classes that can dump their threat are going to be very, very powerful, I would imagine. Classes that can't...are going to be limited. Unless they make tank threat essentially ridiculous and give that a 30-45% increase.

#32 Densor

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:19 AM

Why does it HoW need to do more damage? At 700+ for half a second of cast time, it seems like it would be a pretty big damage increase. I really would like to see the math that says it isn't worth using ever.

[Edit: Didn't see that TA was changed, too.]

#33 flyingtoastr

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:19 AM

Between that change to salv and the tranquil air totem, there exist no global threat modifiers. That's very interesting. Classes that can dump their threat are going to be very, very powerful, I would imagine. Classes that can't...are going to be limited. Unless they make tank threat essentially ridiculous and give that a 30-45% increase.


Well we already know that Warriors are getting some pretty massive AP > Threat conversions other than Heroic Strike (nyah) so I would assume threat will be less of an issue with a competent tank. HoS is also going to be very nice in raids, I can already see the "**Hand on Warlock** macros scrolling across my screen. It might be fun.

E: To be clear, Tranquil Air is also being removed.
E2: PMing people who want the math behind Hammer of Wrath's suck, drop me a line if you want it.

#34 Auororam

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:26 AM

Anybody remember how in 40 man raids with 5 minute blessings basically our job would be to constantly buff the raid, every once in a while heal the melee dps during cleaves, and play Out-of-combat resser?

I can't help but think that the Blessing/Hand system is a more improved version of what blizzard was trying to do with this.

Originally I got the gist (and it was played out in 5 mans) that you would be a Paladin. You'd be doing your thing as a healer/tank/melee'er and you'd be buffing your party with your aura plus cool affects that you can toss out at instant speed while you continue to own face.

Once we were all in raids the 5 minute timer became such a handicap that we didn't do anything else.

Now it looks like we'll be back to the "multi-task" paladin. The ret/holy/tanking palies will have to hand the second highest dps from the tank (with no aggro dump) every time his cooldown is up. The non-tanking palies can run sacrifice on the tank every cooldown or during scripted events (like the upcoming raid-wide-webbing in Naxx).

I always liked the idea of constantly casting other spells and utility while doing our primary job, and I always felt blizzard was striving towards this idea what with blessings and such, coupled with the high cooldowns on many of our other abilities which I felt left us time to tend to the utility aspect. They always all needed to be used together to have a full impact on the fight. Hopefully this is another step closer to that ideal.

As far as Hammer of Wrath, I've always used this spell I believe as it was intended. To finish off runners while soloing and as a ranged execute in PvP on a sprinting rogue or blinking mage. I don't think blizzard wants it to fulfill the place of the warrior talent Execute on the Paladin class. When it was given to us it was mostly talked about in a PvP sense and Ret paladins where not DPSing in raids then so there wasn't really any idea that this would be a balancing talent to up ret-raid dps or something like that. IMO it's great at what it does and not at what it doesn't?

#35 Prinsesa

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:27 AM

Why does it HoW need to do more damage? At 700+ for half a second of cast time, it seems like it would be a pretty big damage increase. I really would like to see the math that says it isn't worth using ever.

[Edit: Didn't see that TA was changed, too.]


Simply put, delaying your swing timer by 0.5 seconds to shoot a 700 damage HoW is not worth it if your white swing deals 1000 damage non-crit and without a Seal proc.
"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

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#36 frmorrison

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:30 AM

Threat talents have all been buffed, like Elemental Shaman get 30% (currently have 10%) threat reduction, and tank threat is supposed to be buffed.

So Pallies should not have to use Hand of Salvation on cooldown, but it is there (along with Hand of Protection) if you need it.

I like the idea of buffing in combat as well.

#37 flyingtoastr

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:31 AM

Posted Image

Little picture confirming the 51-pointers, in addition to a line about increasing Judgement range, as well as your Holy Shock crit heals reducing the cast time of something. Fun!

EDIT: Got them:
Infusion of Light (Rank 2)
Your Holy Shock critical hits reduce the cast time of your next Holy Light spell by 2.5 secs.

Sacred Cleansing (Rank 3)
Your Cleanse spell has a $h% chance to increase the target's resistance to Disease, Magic and Poison by $53659s1% for $53659d.

#38 frmorrison

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:37 AM

Here are cleaned up notes:

General

* All Auras now affect all party and raid members within the area of effect.
* Avenging Wrath no longer causes Forebearance, damage increase reduced to 20%, now increases healing done by 20%.
* Blessing of Freedom renamed Hand of Freedom, Blessing of Protection renamed Hand of Protection,Blessing of Sacrifice renamed Hand of Sacrifice, and Blessing of Salvation renamed Hand of Salvation. Only one Hand spell can be on the target per paladin at any one time. All ranks now cost 6% of base mana.
* Hand of Sacrificeis now only 1 rank and transfers 20% of the damage taken to the caster, duration reduced to 12 seconds, cooldown increased to 2 minutes.
* Hand of Salvation, now reduces total threat on the target by 2% per second for 10 seconds while also reducing all damage and healing done by 10%.
* Blessing of Light and Greater Blessing of Light removed. Their effects have been folded into all relevant abilities.
* Divine Intervention cooldown reduced to 20 minutes.
* Divine Protection and Divine Shield now cost 3% of base mana.
* Hammer of Justice now costs 3% of base mana.
* Hammer of Wrath is now considered a Retribution spell, moved from Holy, mana cost reduced, missile speed increased, now usable on targets below 35% health.
* Holy Wrath is now instant cast, causes a 3 second stun, cooldown reduced to 30 seconds, radius reduced to 10 yards.
* Judgement of Justice will no longer prevent Fear effects, only prevent NPCs from fleeing (e.g. at low health). Seal of Justice/Judgement reduced to 1 rank with all the effects of the previous rank 2
* Lay on Hands no longer drains all mana, cooldown reduced to 20 minutes.
* Retribution Aura damage increased and now gains damage based on Holy spell power.
* Righteous Fury now increases threat caused by Holy damage by 90%. (instead of all holy spells)
* Seal of the Crusader has been removed. The effects of Judgement of the Crusader have been folded into all relevant abilities.
* Seal of Vengeance damage over time effect duration increased to 18 seconds.
* Turn Undead (ranks 1 and 2) removed. Turn Evil now granted at level 24, mana cost changed to 9% of base.

Holy

* Divine Intellect (Holy) moved to tier 2, increases total Intellect by 3/6/9/12/15%.
* Healing Light (Holy) moved to tier 2.
* Holy Shock (Holy) range changed to 20/40 yards when used on enemies/friends respectively, cooldown reduced to 6 seconds.
* Illumination (Holy) moved to tier 3.
* Improved Concentration Aura moved from the Protection tree to tier 4 in the Holy tree.
* Improved Seal of Righteousness (Holy) moved to tier 1, renamed XXX, now affects Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption.
* Pure of Heart (Holy) reduced to 2 ranks, now reduces duration of Curse and Disease effects by 25/50%.
* Sanctified Light (Holy) now also increases the critical chance of Holy Shock.
* Spiritual Focus (Holy) moved to tier 1.
* Unyielding Faith (Holy) moved to tier 2.


Protection

* Anticipation (Protection) moved to tier 1, now increases chance to dodge by 1/2/3/4/5%.
* Avenger's Shield (Protection) cast time reduced to .5 seconds, duration increased to 10 seconds.
* Divine Strength (Holy) moved to tier 1 in the Protection tree.
* Holy Shield (Protection) cooldown reduced to 8 seconds. (typo?)
* Improved Devotion Aura (Protection) moved to tier 4, reduced to 3 ranks, now increases armor of Devotion Aura by 17/34/50% and increases all healing done to units affected by Devotion Aura by 1/2/3%.
* Improved Hammer of Justice (Protection) now reduces cooldown by 10/20/30 secs.
* Improved Righteous Fury (Protection) threat bonus folded into base spell, talent still reduces all damage taken by 2/4/6%.
* Redoubt (Protection) moved to tier 2.
* Toughness (Protection) moved to tier 3.


Retribution

* Conviction (Retribution) now increases critical chance with all spells and melee attacks.
* Divine Purpose (Retribution) now reduces chance to be hit by spells and ranged attacks by 1/2/3%.
* Improved Sanctity Aura (Retribution) renamed Sanctified Retribution, now causes all units affected by Retribution Aura to cause 2% more damage. ( Sanctity Aura (Retribution) removed.)
* Improved Seal of the Crusader (Retribution) renamed Heart of the Crusader and the effects now apply to all Judgement spells.
* Repentance (Retribution) mana cost changed to 9% of base, duration increased to 1 minute (10 second PvP duration), now usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoids and Undead.
* Stoicism (Protection) moved to tier 2, now reduces duration of Stun effects by 10/20/30% and reduces chance your spells will be resisted by 10/20/30%.

#39 Auororam

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:38 AM

I'm essentially saying the same thing you said, without Salvation it will become really up in the air if you can justify the spot of a holy paladin in a raid. Atm you'll need 1 ret for their aura, and 1 prot for their aura. The prot paladin can get kings, and the ret paladin can get might/wisdom.

There are a lot of nice changes, but a large amount of insignificant changes or negative changes. For a class that was expecting a lot of buffs, I don't think these were expected.


They'll want a third paladin for the extra 12 seconds of Hand of Sacrifice!
Also it'll be really good to have a Hand of Salvation Bot who can watch the threat meters and help out the non-threat dropping class to up their DPS. Also it's 3 lay on hands per attempt instead of 2. And maybe they'll give us another blessing since we just lost 5 or so.

#40 Auororam

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:42 AM

Threat talents have all been buffed, like Elemental Shaman get 30% (currently have 10%) threat reduction, and tank threat is supposed to be buffed.

So Pallies should not have to use Hand of Salvation on cooldown, but it is there (along with Hand of Protection) if you need it.

I like the idea of buffing in combat as well.


Well right now it doesn't have a cooldown, but I think they are hoping the 10% reduc in dmg for 10 secs will make it not-spammable? Also if the threat changes are good then we won't need it much. I wonder if they will be implementing some sort of threat meter directly into the game because this talent pretty much requires to see a full raid threat layout.




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