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WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion


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#5781 Iluminati

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 02:35 PM

So instead of giving Paladins something to make them actually wanted, they nerf Druids and Priests so they're more like Paladins.. not to mention Shamans now are the defacto premiere raid healers. What scares me is the context of "we would like to change some of the encounters"... that just smells like dumbing down and nerfing of content to me. Bad design is tooling encounters to players. And this reeks of bad design decisions.


The point of the changes is never to completely homogenize classes. But, they do want to give each class just the right amount of abilities so that you are never forced to "stack" a certain spec to win. Putting a cooldown on circle/growth AND re-tuning content means that those abilities stay powerful and flexible but they dont make all other abilities/specs worthless. With the holy light glyph, beacon, buffed holy shock, etc. Paladins can do a good amount of raid healing? Will it ever be enough to totally replace a priest/druid/shaman? Maybe not, but it will be a strong complement such that skill shines over gear. If that's not enough but blizzard wont buff your aoe healing, look for expanded healing/utility elsewhere .

#5782 Saladin

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:38 PM

With the holy light glyph, beacon, buffed holy shock, etc. Paladins can do a good amount of raid healing?


I bold that question mark because "good" is quite a relative terms. Many paladins believe they won't be able to raid heal at all until they get Chain Light; other paladins boast about raid healing pre-3.0 with mondo FoL spam and despise smart targeting heal spells. I'm really in the middle of the road on this one. A 5-yard range on the Holy Light glyph is honestly laughable if you ask me (why couldn't we get the 10-yard again?), but if your raid is intelligent you should be able to stack on top of each other to maximize the effect. Beacon of Light is a powerful niche tool as many have said, and Holy Shock is useful for countering immediate damage spikes on high-priority raid members. So yes, it's not like anyone can claim that we don't have tools for a powerful healing kit. We just might not have Black & Decker Power Tools.

Personally, I'll be convinced that Paladins are in a good state for healing when a 25-man raid can be healed using 8 paladins as effectively as it can be healed using 8 shamans, 8 druids, or 8 priests. I don't like the idea of having to rely on other healing classes being present in order for us to do our jobs. We should be able to heal whatever we are told to heal regardless of if we have a Shaman to raid heal or not. Otherwise it just flies in the face of Blizzard's new "interchangeable tank & DPS" policy.

And yes, this does have a very important influence on raid encounters and their so-called dumbing down. Can anyone claim that Bacon+SoL+GoHL is as powerful a raid healing tool as CoH, Wild Growth, or Chain Heal? This isn't a whine that the other kids got better toys than us, it's a serious concern for how they balance raid content. If they balance content assuming that we won't always have incredible raid healing tools from other classes, then Holy Paladin healing will become Normal Mode, and the second a Shaman walks in the whole raid turns to Easy Mode. Conversely, if they assume we will always have those options in our raids (which is admittedly going to be pretty common, as Disc Priests are the only other healer without gonzo raid heals) then Shaman healing becomes Normal Mode and Paladin healing becomes Hard Mode.

This sounds like I'm calling for more class homogenization, and I don't know if I am or not honestly. My jury's still out on that. I think we're all just concerned that a large enough gap between the healing classes' basic abilities will result in a repeat of TBC's drama wherein Holy Paladins went from the gods of healing to the jobless hobos passing out buffs at the entrance to BT/Sunwell.

#5783 Zuqual

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:05 PM

post deleted because it had nothing new to say.

#5784 Rhî

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:02 PM

I'm a bit confused how Judgement of Wisdom is now working.

Which Paladin attacks can proc the 'Judgement of Wisdom' effect?
Is there (still) a hidden cooldown for procs?

I would test it myself, but I'm not able to play at the moment.

#5785 Saladin

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:20 PM

I'm a bit confused how Judgement of Wisdom is now working.

Which Paladin attacks can proc the 'Judgement of Wisdom' effect?
Is there (still) a hidden cooldown for procs?

I would test it myself, but I'm not able to play at the moment.


I believe Shandara found that the ICD for JoW has been removed, but the proc rate has been nerfed mightily in its absence.

Only Judgement of Wisdom can apply the "Judgement of Wisdom" debuff, but every Paladin offensive ability except Conescration should trigger it.

#5786 Rhî

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:35 PM

every Paladin offensive ability [...] should trigger it.


This includes Shield of Righteousness, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Hammer of Wrath and Avenger's Shield? I guess, ticks of Seal of Vengeance/Corruption do not count.

#5787 Saladin

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 12:54 PM

Yes on all accounts as I've witnessed them on live with my paladin, with the exception of Seal of Vengeance Corruption ticks. However, the itty-bitty bit of direct holy damage you deal when you have 5 stacks maxed out would also trigger it.

#5788 Spiry

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 02:01 PM

We could just say that all direct damage done to the target will trigger JoW. Warlock and Spriest dots have never triggered JoW whilst dealing damage, and I doubt SoV and RV would either.

Paladins do have an ability to heal multiple people at once. It's called Divine Storm. ><


#5789 Rurahk

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 08:05 PM

Personally, I'll be convinced that Paladins are in a good state for healing when a 25-man raid can be healed using 8 paladins as effectively as it can be healed using 8 shamans, 8 druids, or 8 priests. I don't like the idea of having to rely on other healing classes being present in order for us to do our jobs. We should be able to heal whatever we are told to heal regardless of if we have a Shaman to raid heal or not. Otherwise it just flies in the face of Blizzard's new "interchangeable tank & DPS" policy.


While this is your opinion, Blizzard have explicitly excluded healers from their "interchangable tank & DPS policy." Search is broken on the official forums at the moment, but basically the reasons are different for all 3 roles - tank and dps are targeted for interchangeability while healing is not.

For raid encounters, there are often times when there is one and only one main tank. That one main tank should be interchangeable with regards to class so that you can take your best skilled/geared tank to that encounter.

DPS are not interchangeable per se ("pure" dps are supposed to be more effective at dps than "hybrid" by a small margin), but the buffs they provide are supposed to be interchangeable. This is to prevent raid stacking for a specific buff.

Healing, however is different. All the 25-man encounters are designed with a certain number of healing throughput which is much greater than 1 healer for the entire raid. 6-8 healers are common. The chances of the guild having all of the 6-8 healers be one class are reasonably small. The chances of having at least 1-2 healers of each type (aoe/hot/single target) are reasonably large.

The exception is 5-mans and to a lesser extent, 10-mans. Blizzard have said that if a healing class cannot successfully complete this content with a reasonable level of skill and gear, they would consider buffing the class.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the above, but that is what I understand to be their stance on healing balance.

#5790 Deris

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 08:32 PM

Healing, however is different. All the 25-man encounters are designed with a certain number of healing throughput which is much greater than 1 healer for the entire raid. 6-8 healers are common. The chances of the guild having all of the 6-8 healers be one class are reasonably small. The chances of having at least 1-2 healers of each type (aoe/hot/single target) are reasonably large.

The exception is 5-mans and to a lesser extent, 10-mans. Blizzard have said that if a healing class cannot successfully complete this content with a reasonable level of skill and gear, they would consider buffing the class.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the above, but that is what I understand to be their stance on healing balance.


This focus of Blizzard's also shows their lack of intelligent design. You *cannot* have something be "different, but equal", it just isn't possible in a game of this size. The only remote chance you have is to dumb down encounters so much that the *obvious* answer is to use a Paladin as the MT healer, even though a Shaman or Disc Priest give nearly as much throughput, along with more options over a Paladin. This is what I'm worried about their "no more sunwell" comment in regards to raiding.

The "exception" of 5 mans and 10 mans is also a sad oversight in my opinion, since they will just keep nerfing the 5/10 man content to meet the general populace instead of fixing Paladins, the only class with no real raid healing aside from a Glyph.

It still boggles my mind that people can't understand how bad Paladins really will be. Outside of 1 or 2 token Paladins for Blessings, what do you gain by bringing more? And since those token Paladin slots can be covered via Ret or Prot, why bring Holy, since Prot brings BoSanc which is arguably irreplaceable.

I just see one of two things happening :

1) Min/maxing will mean bringing Paladins hurts your bottom line, when a Shaman/Priest is your obvious choice since Paladins do not have Inspiration + a few other helpful abilities, and the throughput difference is negligible.

2) They just nerf raids until you can heal all of it with whatever.

Both do not bode well for the future of the game for me.

#5791 btmorex

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 09:43 PM

It still boggles my mind that people can't understand how bad Paladins really will be. Outside of 1 or 2 token Paladins for Blessings, what do you gain by bringing more? And since those token Paladin slots can be covered via Ret or Prot, why bring Holy, since Prot brings BoSanc which is arguably irreplaceable.


I have the exact opposite impression. In fact, I would say that paladins (as a class, not a spec) are best positioned for stacking. Technically, you get additional benefits for up to 4 paladins although obviously the 4th blessing is of limited use. What other class is that true for? Certainly, I can see bringing 3 paladins to every raid because of sanctuary (unique), kings (unique), might and wisdom (unique). Why bring holy? Because prot and ret aren't going to spec into imp. BoW.

#5792 Endoscient

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 10:18 PM

The goal for healing balance is not that any 6-8 of them will be able to heal any fight in the game. They presume that there will be some mixture of them, and certain healers will be better at certain tasks. When you have 5 specs to use for 6-8 spots it is safe to make some of those assumptions. For DPS where you have 21 specs for 13-18 spots, and tanking where you have 4 specs for 1-3 spots, is why they changed those classes to be more interchangeable.

Beacon of Light has greatly helped us when we need to heal non tanks. It is amazing in 5/10 mans, and with it we should have no problems healing these instances compared to other healers. The only time it could be an issue is where every single group member needs a heal in less then 6 seconds or else they will die. I don't know of any fights though when that will be an issue.

I am very excited to heal with my paladin in WotLK, and I think we are in a much better place then TBC. We have a lot more tools (SS, BoL, HS) at our disposal to deal with different situations that still keeps with the style of Pally healing. I don't want to be made into a priest with different spell names, I enjoy the healing style of my paladin.

#5793 Rurahk

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 11:14 PM

This focus of Blizzard's also shows their lack of intelligent design. You *cannot* have something be "different, but equal", it just isn't possible in a game of this size. The only remote chance you have is to dumb down encounters so much that the *obvious* answer is to use a Paladin as the MT healer, even though a Shaman or Disc Priest give nearly as much throughput, along with more options over a Paladin. This is what I'm worried about their "no more sunwell" comment in regards to raiding.


While I disagree about "you cannot have something be different, but equal," you are missing the point. GC said that the whole equality for tanks and class buffs does not apply to healers. To state it clearly, healers are not designed to be equal to each other. This is similar to the pre-Wrath design where the tanks were not equal - pallies were hands down the best AoE tanks, warriors had the best tools to fill the MT role, and druids had the best DPS when not tanking. The reason for changing tanks to be "different, but equal" do not apply to healers, and the current design is to have healers fill niches in raids but be relatively equal in 5/10-mans.

I don't believe that Blizzard will dumb down encounters. I have no proof or theory for this belief other than the consistent track record they have with providing entertaining, challenging, and creative encounters. YMMV

EDIT: TLA FTL

#5794 Saladin

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 01:00 AM

I have no proof or theory for this belief other than the consistent track record they have with providing entertaining, challenging, and creative encounters. YMMV

EDIT: TLA FTL


I believe Magtheridon and Kael'thas would like to have a few words with you on that one.

But it's true, Blizzard has specifically inclined that they don't hold tanks and DPS under the same design lens as healers. Therefore, it's important for Holy paladins to realize that there is a limit at which they will not be brought to raids--a limit that does not exist for any of the other three healing classes. That's the price we pay for being the "best" tank healers. In reality what this means is that the first 1-3 Holy paladins are guaranteed raid slots, but any Holy paladins over that number are guaranteed exclusions. This is going to result in a stringent limit on the Holy paladin roster in heavy-duty raiding guilds, unless Blizzard removes raid healing as a necessary component of raids.

And that brings us back to Deris' prophecy.




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