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WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion


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#41 Pyralissa

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:45 AM

Tier 3 Illumination is going to be very interesting with 8% spell crit coming out of Retribution (and being able to pick up Healing Light) although it would certainly have to come at the cost of Precision and arguably Divine Strength (depending on how many talents in Retribution beyond 51 help out damage).

It's still a nice option to have.

#42 Prinsesa

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:46 AM

How much would taking 20% of the tank's damage for 12 seconds be? My first instinct was to use this while Ret as a mana regen mechanism, but I'm wondering if I'll go splat 3 seconds after putting it on the Brutallus tank or something.

(Or, if it doesn't kill you, how painful would it be on the healers?)
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#43 Tuesasinus

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:50 AM

Posted Image

Little picture confirming the 51-pointers, in addition to a line about increasing Judgement range, as well as your Holy Shock crit heals reducing the cast time of something. Fun!

EDIT: Got them:
Infusion of Light (Rank 2)
Your Holy Shock critical hits reduce the cast time of your next Holy Light spell by $/1000;54149S1 secs.

Sacred Cleansing (Rank 3)
Your Cleanse spell has a $h% chance to increase the target's resistance to Disease, Magic and Poison by $53659s1% for $53659d.



For the 51pt talent I wonder if that is a constant stream of heals (Think Hex Lord Shadow Bolts) going out of the Paladin or just a single stream with possibly a cast time. That is a very needed heal. I am very happy thus far.

#44 crimsonsentinel

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:52 AM

That's very interesting- I can't think of any current ability that has different durations in PvE and PvP. Diminishing returns on Fear and whatnot, sure, but not a flat listed difference. Nice buff to Ret CC, certainly.


Actually the complete opposite is true. Almost every single-target CC lasts longer than 10 seconds in pve and hence has to have a different duration in pvp (since pvp CC is capped @ 10 seconds). Only cyclone and stuns are the same, since they have such short durations to begin with. Examples include: polymorph, fear (warlock version), entangling roots, scare beast, hibernate, sap, turn evil, banish, and I'm probably missing a few others. None of these spells have any disclaimers written in the tooltip though because it's implied that no CC will last longer than 10 seconds in pvp.

edit:

(Or, if it doesn't kill you, how painful would it be on the healers?)

Since there is no extra damage being taken, and assuming that the amount of damage done is calculated first before being subtracted (that is, it takes into account the mitigation of the tank and not the paladin), there would be no real increase in healing done. It would probably be easier on healers excepting of course the afore-mentioned brutallus 3 shot.

#45 Tuesasinus

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:54 AM

How much would taking 20% of the tank's damage for 12 seconds be? My first instinct was to use this while Ret as a mana regen mechanism, but I'm wondering if I'll go splat 3 seconds after putting it on the Brutallus tank or something.

(Or, if it doesn't kill you, how painful would it be on the healers?)


I think it would depend if it is all factored in after the Armor/Block Value deduction or before if you will splat or not. But, if the mob is hitting the tank for 10k you would be taking 2k dmg of that damage dealt instead of the tank.

#46 flyingtoastr

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:54 AM

For the 51pt talent I wonder if that is a constant stream of heals (Think Hex Lord Shadow Bolts) going out of the Paladin or just a single stream with possibly a cast time. That is a very needed heal. I am very happy thus far.


It really struck me as a simple targeted Tranquility with the channeling part. Pick a person with heaps of other people hanging around, pop BoL on him, watch the massive numbersâ„¢. Until someone can mine actual values/cooldowns and such it's too early to say whether this will be a saving grace of paladins or as useful as Tranquility.

#47 Pyralissa

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:59 AM

I looked up a recent WWS for Brutallus (it ended up being from SK gaming) and his average damage to the tank was around 4600 damage. That ends up being 920 damage shunted onto the Paladin per swing. I'm assuming most Sunwell geared Paladins are going to be in the 10-11k health (raid buffed) range, especially after some of the changes in the 3.0 system (like raidwide Blood Pact). Would take a little while to get killed by 900ish damage coming in per swing, although instant abilities would add to those problems.

In the end it's probably worthwhile because it gives you tank breathing room, and the Paladin can turn it into mana. As long as the healers are aware the Paladin is going to be eating some damage I doubt you are in serious risk of death. The benefit is you get 10% of that damage back in mana, which for Ret and Holy paladins would be a significant benefit. Also you can simply use shield if it looks like you are getting too low on health, and considering both the shield and hand of sacrifice have 12 durations that seems to be a deliberate synergy.

#48 Tuesasinus

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 07:02 AM

It really struck me as a simple targeted Tranquility with the channeling part. Pick a person with heaps of other people hanging around, pop BoL on him, watch the massive numbersâ„¢. Until someone can mine actual values/cooldowns and such it's too early to say whether this will be a saving grace of paladins or as useful as Tranquility.


Something that would be nice about that (of course without real knowledge of the spell I can't say for sure) is putting it on a tank and maybe giving them the healing agro instead of yourself. This would be helpful in a setting like Felmyst. Of course the whole threat system seems like it's getting an overhaul.

I looked up a recent WWS for Brutallus (it ended up being from SK gaming) and his average damage to the tank was around 4600 damage. That ends up being 920 damage shunted onto the Paladin per swing. I'm assuming most Sunwell geared Paladins are going to be in the 10-11k health (raid buffed) range, especially after some of the changes in the 3.0 system (like raidwide Blood Pact). Would take a little while to get killed by 900ish damage coming in per swing, although instant abilities would add to those problems.

In the end it's probably worthwhile because it gives you tank breathing room, and the Paladin can turn it into mana. As long as the healers are aware the Paladin is going to be eating some damage I doubt you are in serious risk of death. The benefit is you get 10% of that damage back in mana, which for Ret and Holy paladins would be a significant benefit. Also you can simply use shield if it looks like you are getting too low on health, and considering both the shield and hand of sacrifice have 12 durations that seems to be a deliberate synergy.


Agreed, and a couple of HoTs from a Druid will put you in the right direction for sure.

#49 Prinsesa

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 07:12 AM

I looked up a recent WWS for Brutallus (it ended up being from SK gaming) and his average damage to the tank was around 4600 damage. That ends up being 920 damage shunted onto the Paladin per swing. I'm assuming most Sunwell geared Paladins are going to be in the 10-11k health (raid buffed) range, especially after some of the changes in the 3.0 system (like raidwide Blood Pact). Would take a little while to get killed by 900ish damage coming in per swing, although instant abilities would add to those problems.

In the end it's probably worthwhile because it gives you tank breathing room, and the Paladin can turn it into mana. As long as the healers are aware the Paladin is going to be eating some damage I doubt you are in serious risk of death. The benefit is you get 10% of that damage back in mana, which for Ret and Holy paladins would be a significant benefit. Also you can simply use shield if it looks like you are getting too low on health, and considering both the shield and hand of sacrifice have 12 durations that seems to be a deliberate synergy.


Doesn't the current Blessing of Sacrifice's damage (as well as Seal of Blood's) go through Divine Shield?
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#50 Tuesasinus

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 07:16 AM

No it gives you an Immune message.

#51 flyingtoastr

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 07:51 AM

Datamined Holy Tree

Some really interesting stuff with trying to get holy pallys to use Judgment. I suppose maybe pallys might be the "DPS" healers in a roundabout way. Nothing to fix our massive dependence on outside buffs for regen though, which is a little disappointing.

E: Little taste of the ret talents (being mined as we speak):
Increases your spell power by an amount equal to $s1% of your attack power and your critical healing spells heal the target for $s2% of the healed amount over 12 seconds.

#52 Zaroua

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:02 AM

Just as an example of the usefulness of the new Hand of Sacrifice spell, I'll try to list the TBC fights where it would make a rather large difference for raiders progressing through a zone:

SSC:
-Hydross pre-transitions
-Leotheras' Warlock tank
-AoErs on Morogrim
-Shaman tank on Karatress


TK:
-Al'ar's Melt Armor on P2, preventing burst dmg on the tank in case of resisted taunts
-Kael'thas' Pyroblast would be made trivial to survive


Hyjal:
-Kaz'rogal during a stun (doubles up as free mana)
-Azgalor before a silence
-Archimonde before a fear


BT:
-Naj'entus on low HP players (very dangerous, probably only Divine Shield is active)
-RoS good for all 1 and 3, but especially good for phase 1 on Enrages
-Bloodboil on soft Fel Rage targets (dangerous, raid has to be aware)
-Mother 10%
-Illidan P2 and P5 enrages, demon form for the Warlock tank


Sunwell:
-Kalecgos/Sathrovarr 10% Enrage (dangerous)
-Brutallus Stomps, just gotta make sure to load up on HoTs
-Felmyst Corrosion
-M'uru Sentinel tank when overlapping Spawns' AoE


And obviously, the new Hand of Sacrifice can be used on any difficult pull. The PvP and instancing utilities are also endless. But this goes to show the overall utility of the spell and it'd be a safe bet to say that WotLK raid encounters will have plenty of mechanics where casting Hand of Sacrifice is beneficial.



Oh ya, suggested nomenclature for the new spells: HoSac, HoSalv, HoP and HoF.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory

#53 Toppazz

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:04 AM

As many have mentioned, it seems like Blizzard is changing us into a buff bot with the new "Hand" system. Is anyone else pretty disappointed by this? I've been relatively content with my role as tank healer this expansion. Even though I can't put up the big numbers that AoE healers can, I've still felt like an important member of the healing squad. I think I'd shoot myself if I had to spend raids juggling various Hands to targets with a smaller focus on healing. Of course, maybe I'm just reading too much into it (and being overly bitter) since the Blessing/Hand changes were listed first.

I guess it's a good thing I have level seventy of each healer.

#54 flyingtoastr

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:11 AM

Supposed Datamined Ret Tree

Holy

Shit

Still waiting on confirmation but damn that is some sweet group utility!

EDIT: This particular tree didn't update Holy/Prot, let me find a better one.
EDIT 2: The 51-pointer also has a confirmed 10 second cooldown. I'm not gonna lie, Ret is looking incredibly powerful.
EDIT 3: I should make a new post... Anyway, got a good talent tree link now.

#55 Cathela

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:12 AM

Hand of Sacrifice is also a gift for any offtanking/threat-switching situation like Gurtogg or Fel Reaver, since the damage taken translates into mana through SA.

EDIT: Whoah, Ret talents.

Do prot! Do prot!
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

#56 fox

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:23 AM

It's amazing how much utility Blizzard seems to be putting deep in the Retribution tree with the 2 different ways to generate some healing.

Holy gets it's promised HoT/AOE/Chain Heal but with a little more interaction required that would reward making a good choice.

I for one can't wait for datamined Protection talents... *shiver*

#57 Snow

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:29 AM

While Divine Shield is active $53523s1% of all damage taken by party or raid members within $53523a1 yards is redirected to the Paladin.


Is the only one I've heard about so far, and it's a bit... hmm....

#58 Trebla

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:42 AM

I apologize if this has been brought up already but is anyone else thinking Seal of Corruption is just a poorly named eventual replacement for Seal of Blood? It could be identical to SoV which would be consistent with the Corruption = DoT and it *could* be appropriate from a lore standpoint. Am I thinking too far ahead here or is this a chilling vision of things to come?

EDIT: The impression I'm getting from the Blizz forums is that Horde is getting "Seal of Corruption" and the Alliance is getting "Seal of the Martyr" which will function identically to Vengeance/Blood.


Yeah that seems much more likely.

#59 Cathela

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:44 AM

No telling if this is real, but someone has a full tree mock-up posted.

EDIT: The impression I'm getting from the Blizz forums is that Horde is getting "Seal of Corruption" and the Alliance is getting "Seal of the Martyr" which will function identically to Vengeance/Blood.

Prot talents:

I'm wondering if the damage "redirected" by Divine Guardian damage the paladin even under the bubble, or is it simply absorbed by the bubble?

Touched by the Light: Nice. I'm wondering if that's our only "innate" source of spelldamage or if the class as a whole is getting some kind of baseline stat->spelldamage conversion?

Guarded by the Light: Effectively half-price AoE tanking. Seems kind of hard to justify the points for.

Shield of the Templar: Begs the question "What exactly is Shield of Righteousness?"

Judgements of Justice: Sup, Tclap.

Hammer of the Righteous: No mana cost(?), 6 second cooldown. Potentially this could mean we'll be changing our entire tanking-weapon outlook from "spelldamage weapon" to "slow melee weapon".


Interesting stuff, but we'll have to see the big picture to really understand it all.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

#60 flyingtoastr

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:48 AM

I apologize if this has been brought up already but is anyone else thinking Seal of Corruption is just a poorly named eventual replacement for Seal of Blood? It could be identical to SoV which would be consistent with the Corruption = DoT and it *could* be appropriate from a lore standpoint. Am I thinking too far ahead here or is this a chilling vision of things to come?


Current rumors abound on the pally forum have the interesting idea that SoCor is the same as SoV except for horde toons. They point to something called Seal of the Martyr being the same as SoB for alliance (!!!!). This would also make the "Improved Seals" talent make more sense, it increases the damage dealt by the tanking/holy dps seals.

EDIT: Now we need to find out what "Shield of Righteousness" is.




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