Jump to content


Photo

WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
5086 replies to this topic

#21 Shandara

Shandara

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 991 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 01:10 PM

In my opinion BM may need one more party wide buff like FI is now, but both BM and Survival are very good PvE trees. This party/raid buff may come come from new pet abilities, so we need to see now this will work in game.


I think it's more likely that the dps gap between BM and the other 2 specs is going to increase, rather than Blizzard adding more 'utility' to it. Certainly the talent changes to the BM tree and the better availability of the talents in other trees is going to help. Pets are getting a huge help as well with changes to the way totems work (WF totem :) and the top tier talents in the tree.

The only thing that could really confirm BM as the top dps spec is the 51p talent really, but we'll have to see how it works first.

#22 Zediono

Zediono

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 33 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 02:28 PM

These changes look great. But before we can even start theorycrafting, I think there are several things we need to find out. I'll make a list here, please tell me if I missed anything. And of course, if we have any theorycrafting hunters that are in the beta, please update us :P

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General:

* How are mana consumption and mana regen in WotLK?

* What is steady shot's new damage formula?

(Unsure for the moment)

It must be either:

steady_shot_damage = [range_ap]*0.2 + [arrow_dps] + [steady_shot_dmg_bonus] + [weapon_dmg]/[weapon_speed]*2.8
or
steady_shot_damage = [range_ap]*0.2 + [arrow_dps]*2.8 + [steady_shot_dmg_bonus] + [weapon_dmg]/[weapon_speed]*2.8

Obviously the latter would be nicer :P


Beastmastery:

* Does invigoration have an internal cooldown?

It currently has no internal cooldown on the beta.

* What does "Exotic pets" imply in the Beast Mastery talent?


Marskmanship:

* What is the new rank of Hunter's Mark and how will it affect Imp. Hunter's Mark?

The new rank on wowhead is correct! Here it is: Link
This means that 3/3 Imp. Hunter's Mark will give 300 melee ap to the raid, which is VERY nice to say the least.

* What are the armor values of mobs in WotLK and as such what is the benefit of the Piercing Shots talent?

* Can Chimera Shot crit?

Yes, its 30% weapon damage component can crit, and so can its Serpent Sting consume component.


Survival:

* Can bosses be affected by Frost Trap or Bear Trap, and as such, what is the value of the Point of no Escape talent as a raiding talent?

* What maximum mana will Hunters and other classes have while fully raid buffed, and as such, what is the benefit of the Hunting Party talent as a raiding talent?

* Does Exploding Shot scale with AP and can it crit? Also, does Exploding Shot actually damage the target its been shot at or just the mobs around it?

Each tick behaves itself as a shot: each tick can crit, and the damage it deals scales with your attack power.
It does NOT however trigger ToTH or Hunting Party on crits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, if people haven't realised, we may already have a good list of pet skills on wowhead.

New Pet abilities: here

Thanks go to Sean for answering these questions :)

#23 KergeKacsa

KergeKacsa

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 100 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 02:56 PM

I thinked about a raid dps build for BM, and got this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Maybe two points from Improved tracking to Rapid killing is better. (i think it does more than 2% difference, bigger burst damage. And if you forget to switch tracking, you loose not so much dmg. ;))
Plus there is efficiency on the next tier (If invigoration is not enough (ie: got internal CD)), or Imp. Hunter's Mark if noone got it. (it could (maybe) mean the lost 1-2-3% dmg from Imp. tracking)

#24 Cheeky

Cheeky

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 826 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:10 PM

I have a lot of modeling to do. :)

I'll take a stab at some of these talents this weekend. I'll basically add some new tabs to the spreadsheet incorporating my models for them. I'll also go ahead and start setting up changes to support non-interfering shot mechanics.

In case anyone is wondering, the change to Master Tactician is going to push its value to about 6-6.5% effective crit. So it now becomes better than Lethal Shots point per point.
Cheeky of Havoc

#25 Shandara

Shandara

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 991 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:31 PM

Never mind, I need to learn to read. Delete please.

#26 Worry

Worry

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 03:54 PM

I made a quick list of the new pet skills.

Pet Skills:
Bite
Charge;Cat, Hyena, Raptor, Tallstrider and Wolf

Crab
Bat
Bear
Boar
Bird
Crocolisk
Gorilla
Hyena
Nether Ray
Owl
Raptor
Ravager
Spider
Tallstrider

#27 Sumie

Sumie

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 104 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:03 PM

On the PvP end of things:

- Camouflage is going to be the biggest single buff to hunters in arenas. The main thing we lacked was a way to escape being focused, besides feign death.

- 60% resistance on Deterrence, combined with a lower cooldown, will prove very useful. I wouldn't be surprised if every PvP build contained at least 11 points in Survival for this ability.

BM

- Hasn't really changed from the BW wonders they've always been in PvP. Will still be useful in burst setups but that's it. Unless of course some of the exotic pets include ones that reportedly can "earth shock" or disarm.


Marks

- I don't see many hunters going as far down as Chimera Shot, stopping only at 44 points to get Silencing Shot and Wild Quiver. I'd guess most arena MM hunters will take 44 in Marks, 7 or 11 in BM, and the rest in Survival.

Survival

- Kind of disappointed that Counterattack has still yet to be improved.
- Wyvern Sting now a 1 minute cooldown.
- With the addition of Camouflage and a beefed up Deterrence, it's worthwhile now to go deep survival all the way to Readiness. Explosive Shot sounds useless for PvP.


All in all, I like the changes and new skills, but disappointed in the 51-pt talents.

#28 Kigale

Kigale

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 130 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:16 PM

I like the changes. They seem to really be moving dps away from 1 or 2 button mashing. There will be much more skill and awareness involved. Good hunters will be separated from great hunters based on how well they adapt to procs and their ability to maintain ability uptimes.

#29 wolfteak

wolfteak

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:20 PM

- I don't see many hunters going as far down as Chimera Shot, stopping only at 44 points to get Silencing Shot and Wild Quiver. I'd guess most arena MM hunters will take 44 in Marks, 7 or 11 in BM, and the rest in Survival.


IMO, Chimera shot is going to be a great improvement in terms of mana burning in arenas, so i would really include it.

About the trees in general, im curious about the last talent in BM, and as a MM lover as i am, i would really like to see MM a viable spec for raiding, but lets see...

#30 Ravenfire

Ravenfire

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 116 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:38 PM

Chimera shot is seriously weak if they don't tweak it. Assuming 5/5 stings and 3kap, serpent sting does 2k damage (400 per tic, 5 tics). Chimera shot after the 4th tic means it does a total of 2.4k damage instead of 2k damage, at the cost of 540 mana and a global cooldown.

Viper sting will drain 4k mana over 8 seconds (1k per tic, 4 tics). Consuming it after the 3rd tic means you will drain 4.2k total from the target (75% from the first 3 out of 4 tics, then 30% for the chimera shot). It will also return 1200 mana to you. Viper sting costs 680ish mana and chimera shot 540, so no net gain there... essentially just a free viper sting.

Consuming scorpid looks... problematic. I'm unsure on that one.



Your making it weaker then it actually is. Not that i think it is all that strong, but it IS better then what you've stated.

It deals 30% weapon damage in addition to the effect from the sting. (Scatter shot and Silencing shot do 50% so that give you a rough estimate on damage). I'd agree that going from 2.4k to 2.8k means it is still weak for using it on Serpent stings.

I would however like to point out one hugh potential use on viper stings... Viper sting, as currently worded, DRAINS mana. Chimera Shot BURNS 30% of Viper stings total mana drained. I would be really interested if this means that it deals 30% weapon damage + mana burn damage (either 600ish if it is like the preist's mana burn converson of 0.5 damage per mana burned or it could be 1200ish if it is a straight 1:1 damage/mana burned conversion). If so this would make it a rather large pvp tool imo. 4.2k mana gone, a reasonable amount of damage delt to go with it, all for a couple GCD's and no mana cost.

Edit: since both Scatter shot and Silencing shot can crit I would assume Chimera shot could as well. This of course would make it very interesting to see how it (Chimera shot) critting would interact with the mana burn (if it deals damage). Anyone know if a Priest's mana burn can crit and if it does what happens?

#31 Dafeaz

Dafeaz

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:26 PM

With Autoshot and Steady Shot being uncoupled, is it conceivable that Kill Shot will be added into standard rotations?

Or will seperate macros for bosses under 20% be implemented? Hmm...
Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe.

Maybe.

I've yet to meet one who can outsmart bullet.

#32 Cheeky

Cheeky

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 826 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:32 PM

With Autoshot and Steady Shot being uncoupled, is it conceivable that Kill Shot will be added into standard rotations?

Or will seperate macros for bosses under 20% be implemented? Hmm...


I don't think there will be any shot macros (as they are commonly used today) going forward. You may bind Kill Command to your shots, but not multiple shots to one button.
Cheeky of Havoc

#33 Dafeaz

Dafeaz

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:37 PM

No shot macros? That will be a big change.

I like it :D

But yeah. Will Kill Shot be weaved into BM rotations from what we can tell?
Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe.

Maybe.

I've yet to meet one who can outsmart bullet.

#34 Ralnar

Ralnar

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 61 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:38 PM

The question I have about Chimera shot is about timing.

It consumes the current sting, and does X% of the stings damage. But no where in that description does it mention "Damage remaining" so in theory you could with good timing.

Viper 3 of 4 ticks + Chimera (30% of sting)
2319 mana + 1031 mana = 3350 total mana removed

Roughly 8% more mana removed if you wait to land Chimera between the last two ticks of viper.

Serpent 4 of 5 ticks + Chimera (40% of sting )
968 dmg + 484 dmg = 1452 dmg

Roughly 20% more dmg out of the sting by waiting until after tick 4 to land Chimera

(RAP % not included on serpent, imp stings not included on either, net % gain by waiting would be constant)

I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that this would work like swiftmend/conflagrate where the requirement is to have an effect up to "consume" regardless of how much time is left on it.

#35 Xeno

Xeno

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:38 PM

Where's the source for camouflage?

#36 Maax

Maax

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 125 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:41 PM

Reposting from WotLK thread, enjoy:

Pet Skills: Pet Skills - Spells - World of Warcraft (change the pet family on top to see other families)

Generic Pet Skills: (presumably from talents)
Bullheaded
Call of the Wild
Carrion Feeder
Dying Bite (NYI)
Heart of the Phoenix
Intervene
Last Stand
Lick Your Wounds
Rabid
Roar of Fortitude
Roar of Recovery
Wolverine Bite

Family Specific Skills:
Bat: Sonic Blast
Bear: Swipe
Boar: Gore (don't have charge anymore)
Carrion Bird: Demoralizing Screech (also Swoop which appears to be a new avian form of charge)
Cat: Keep the old Prowl and also get Charge
Crab: Pin and also get Dash
Crocolisk: Bad Attitude (wow)
Dragonhawk: Fire Breath still
Gorilla: Thunderstomp still, but bite is replaced with Smack also get Dash
Hyena: Tendon Rip also get Charge
Nether Ray: Nether Shock
Owl: Snatch
Raptor: Savage Rend
Ravager: Ravage and Gore is gone
Scorpid: Scorpid Poison still
Serpent: Poison Spit still
Spider: Web and Dash
Tallstrider: Dust Cloud and Charge
Turtle: Shell Shield still
Warp Stalker: Warp
Wind Serpent: Lightning Breath
Wolf: Furious Howl still and Charge

#37 Suspiria

Suspiria

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 52 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:46 PM

I'm not very happy... I cant see any real change or very helpful skill for hunter's raiding or PvP.
Nerf in Surefooted for avoid too many hunter's resist, a BM last point very useless and a MM talent tree all based about "+1/2/3/4/5%"... this is what we wait for wotlk? Not for me, sure.
And my last hope, Camoflage, is always out any talent tree or trainer skill... Ty Blizzard for an another Lock/Rogue/Druid's century.

#38 Disargeria

Disargeria

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 177 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:50 PM

Pet spec/abilities will play a very important part in raids.

Call of the Wild
100 Focus
Instant 5 min cooldown
Your pet roars, increasing the melee and ranged attack power of all party members within 20 yards by 5%. Lasts 20 sec.

Heart of the Phoenix
10 min cooldown
When your pet dies, it miraculously returns to life with 10% health. Cannot occur more than once per 10 minutes.

Rabid
60 Focus
Instant 10 sec cooldown
Your pet goes into a killing frenzy, increasing attack power by 5%. Successful attacks have a 50% chance to increase attack power by an additional 5%. This effect will stack up to 5 times. Lasts 30 sec.

Roar of Fortitude
100 Focus
Instant 5 min cooldown
Your pet roars, increasing the total health and Dodge chance of all party members within 20 yards by 10%. Lasts 40 sec.

Roar of Recovery
30 Focus 30 yd range
Instant 6 min cooldown
Your pet's inspiring roar restores 40% of your total mana over 8 sec.

#39 rothomp3

rothomp3

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 12 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:55 PM

Also worth noting... pets gain talent points every four levels, not every level. So if the 51 point Beast Mastery talent is interpreted as granting five extra pet talent points, that's equivalent to a level 100 pet at level 80 in terms of pet skills.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, the minimum number of points in Marks has gone down from 20 to 13, not 10. 3/3 Careful Aim, in my opinion, is 100% required for all Hunters. It lets you use actual "Hunter gear" instead of Rogue leather with no loss of DPS stats.

#40 Sean

Sean

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 195 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:55 PM

I don't think there will be any shot macros (as they are commonly used today) going forward. You may bind Kill Command to your shots, but not multiple shots to one button.


Yeah, there shouldn't be any need for macros outside of binding KC in. I played around with it for a bit - Auto Shot definitely shoots while Steady Shot is "casting" now. So there's no worrying about any Auto Shot interrupting at all anymore (there was also a note of it not being delayed by instants).




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users