Jump to content


Photo

WotLK Talents & Abilities Discussion


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
5086 replies to this topic

#41 Neruse

Neruse

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 157 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:01 PM

BM:

Master's Call is good pvp utility, but is it affected by dispel resist talents?
Cobra Strikes has excellent synergy with Invigoration, especially if the mana gain has no cooldown.
Aspect Mastery seems fairly good (the ap bonus from hawk is 150), and assuming one isn't stunned or incapacitated, switching to monkey to help negate a burst is good.
Longevity has potential, but it depends on how good the pet special abilities are.

PvE build like so.

Marks:

Wild Quiver is about 2% dps increase for 3 points.
Imp SS is about 1.5-2% dps increase for 3 points.
Piercing Shots, if assuming a 50% armor increase over SW bosses, seems to be solid.
Imp/Barrage are still poor dps investments.
Presumably Rapid Recuperation is bugged; if it caps at 60% reduced mana, it's hard to justify the points. If it really caps at 100% returned, it has good synergy with Rapid Killing.
Marked for Death is good, possibly about a 7-8% dps increase.
Chimera Shot is a mana hog and really only useful in pvp. Even so, the mana return from viper is only a net benefit if one has Imp Stings.

A PvE build likely would go something like this.

SV:

Improved Tracking is an excellent change, though there still exist some undefined mob types.
Improved Feign Death is more burst negation.
Deterrence would be quite handy against PMR teams.
Master Tactician is now a strong dps talent; somwhere around 7-8% average crit,
Potent Venom is complete and utter fail. Wyvern is not used for the damage and serpent sting only has a justifiable use for sticking on low hp players that may attempt to run.
Point of No Escape has potential, but for so deep into the survival tree it will likely end up a trash talent.
Sniper Training is about a 2% increase before 30%, but substantially better below.
Hunting Party seems pretty good, and with survival crit rates, one might not even have to go 5/5 to get a good return out of it. Assuming a hunter has 15k mana raidbuffed(guesstimate, obviously) this is about 187 mp/5 for himself.

Potential PvE build here.

#42 Disargeria

Disargeria

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 177 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:11 PM

BM:

Master's Call is good pvp utility, but is it affected by dispel resist talents?
Cobra Strikes has excellent synergy with Invigoration, especially if the mana gain has no cooldown.
Aspect Mastery seems fairly good (the ap bonus from hawk is 150), and assuming one isn't stunned or incapacitated, switching to monkey to help negate a burst is good.
Longevity has potential, but it depends on how good the pet special abilities are.

PvE build like so.


Do you think it'll be worth it to drop the cooldown reductions? I'm leaning towards a build like this.

#43 Worry

Worry

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:17 PM

Where's the source for camouflage?


I cannot find it on Wowhead.However it is on Hunter - WotlkWiki - Wrath of the Lich King Information

If someone in the beta would confirm it.

#44 KergeKacsa

KergeKacsa

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 100 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:20 PM

BM:

Master's Call is good pvp utility, but is it affected by dispel resist talents?
Cobra Strikes has excellent synergy with Invigoration, especially if the mana gain has no cooldown.
Aspect Mastery seems fairly good (the ap bonus from hawk is 150), and assuming one isn't stunned or incapacitated, switching to monkey to help negate a burst is good.
Longevity has potential, but it depends on how good the pet special abilities are.


Longevity is worth the 3 points, just because of the TBW CD-reduction in my opinion. In addition there will be other special skills, so it would be great. Better than AM (Aspect Mastery), which will give more dodge (who cares? :)), more mana (which will be an even smaller problem I hope), or 75AP at lvl70, 150AP at lvlv80.

In raids I dont think Masters call will have a real advantage, so I would drop it, same with spirit bond, but I would get Bestial discipline. (More skills from Focus, will need more focus.)
I would leave 1 pt on AM, because without it I cannot get BM.

And I would steal one point from Imp. Tracking, which would go to Rapid killing (with 1 point from BM-tree), because - 2min CD on RF is more dmg than 1% dmg, plus we could get a little more burst damage if needed.

(It's just my opinion, not facts. :))

Edit: So, I would use the same build as Disargeria linked. :)

#45 Garf

Garf

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:22 PM

A few points that immediately pop to my mind:

*I'm surprised nobody mentioned Focused Aim yet. That seems HUGE for raid DPS. With the trend towards heavy raid damage, avoiding push back on steady shot might well be the new mandatory talent for all specs.

*Camouflage - has been mentioned in leaks before, but doesn't show up in any of the new beta information. The exact mechanics (can you move? Drink/eat?) would be nice to know if it's actually still in.

*Aspect mastery seems utterly uselss, or at least overpriced for pve. Mana won't be an issue for sure with invigoration, and a 10% bonus doesn't seem all that big (this is not "an additional 10% of your intellect" like T6 bonus, by current wording), and the AotH bonus of 50% - that will likely be something like 250AP. Master Marksman provides much more without the aspect required to be up, and even Careful Aim does - for 3 points instead of five.

*That said, Careful Aim seems big. Even now, 300 int are pretty common. That's 100 AP per talent paint in current gear situations and would thus beat Master Marksman for any situation with total AP below 5000, which likely will be the case at very least until much later in raids. Of course, int might not scale as high for hunters - we'll have to see.

*The concussive barrage buff makes no sense whatsoever to me. If you use volley, you'll be in an aoe situation, and thus most likely not doing a steady shot rotation (which could benefit from the daze effect).

*Rapid Recuperation - that seems rather underwhelming. Even with Rapid Killing, uptime of rapidfire will be 15/180 at very most, thus this will have an overall effectiveness of 1/12*20% per talent point, which is less than efficiency. which still is much lower in the tree. Is the intent to allow a cheap Aimed Shot opener (after Rapid Killing triggered) when soloing? Or for pvp?

*Piercing Shots - assuming 10k armor, this would be 200/400/600 ArP equivalent. Since that scales rather well, might be worth it for raids. But that's speculation for now (even moreso than the rest of this).

*Wild Quiver - burst oriented 6% damage add (10% chance to add 60%) to auto shot for 3 talent points. Seems to be a tiny bit worse than RWS currently?

*Improved steady - unless "aim shot" is something different than "Aimed Shot", this doesn't seem great at first glance; this is assuming that kill shot will be an ability used exclusively at low health.

*Marked for Death looks rather solid; the improved child of RWS and MS.

*Chimera shot, I agree with the previous sentiments; looks underwhelming with the exception of using it with viper in pvp or if the scorpid mechanics work on bosses, which in turn would seem immensely overpowered.

*Improved tracking - yay!

*Deterrance spell damage reduction seems like a nice bonus

*Imp FD is weird - might have uses in pve for burst raid damage fights, or to survive a wipe while FDing on boss fights, but both seem extremely situational

*Potent venom - unless serpent sting improves a lot damage-wise, this seems rather useless. The wyvern sting damage seems to not be important in most situations where it does get used.

*Point of No Escape - bosses will be immune to the traps and thus to this effect, I'd imagine. But could still be nice for aoe trash in raids with frost trap. And 5v5 arenas?

*Sniper training looks nice for raids. The 30% mark for kill shot seems to conflict with its damage bonus at 20% - does that mean kill shot will be a likely useful part of rotations before the target is at low health?

*Hunting party - err, yeah, mana battery 2.0, indeed. But also rage and energy and runic power; this could be a rather huge thing, I think. Just the mana aspect alone; assume a mana pool of 10k, which will most likely be a rather low estimate, and a proc every 10 seconds (cooldown plus some time for a crit), that'd be 100mp5 to all party members. Not as big as JoW (for hunters), but a big buff by current standards nontheless.


Overall - certainly a lot of interesting things in there! Can't wait to hear more details.

#46 Neruse

Neruse

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 157 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:22 PM

Aye, there's a good chance it'll be worth pulling points from Aspect Mastery for Longevity. Hopefully pets scale well enough.

Taking another look at Kill Shot:

Level 80
475 Mana
Instant cast
6 sec cooldown
You attempt to finish the wounded target off, firing a long range attack dealing weapon damage plus [RAP * 0.15 + 325]. Causes an additional 745 to 825 bonus damage against targets at or under 20% health.

Extrapolating from the gain from 60 to 70 high-end, raid buffed hunters, I'm going to assume 5000 RAP, 1750 average weapon damage.

1750 + [5000 * 0.15 + 325] = 2825, 3570-3650 under 20% (non-crit).

Damage gained is significant, at the price of increased mana use. If hunter regen is strong enough it may be possible to weave KS in pre-20%.

#47 Hink

Hink

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:24 PM

The synergy between Invigoration and Cobra Strikes looks great, assuming there are no hidden cooldowns. On the other hand, Roar of Recovery is another decent way to get mana back. These new talents along with the fact we can start wearing less leather (considering Careful Aim now being reachable) got me thinking we're gonna have less mana issues than in TBC.

I remember I ran OOM on progress encounters quite often when I started out raiding, even while chain potting. The Alchemy trinket made things look much better, but with the WotLK changes I assume Engineering will be my profession of choice again (next to leatherworking).

#48 Disargeria

Disargeria

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 177 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:28 PM

Don't forget, we're losing out on Efficiency. It's a bit up there in the Marks tree.

#49 Ralnar

Ralnar

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 61 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:30 PM

4m rapid fire vs 3m rapid

How much of a gain is it to have rapid fire line up with every other set of 2m cool downs? Right now its:

0 minute - BW/RapidFire/BloodFury(or trinkets)
2 minute - BW/BloodFury(or trinkets)
3 minute - Rapid Fire
4 minute - BW/BloodFury(or trinkets)
6 minute - BW/RapidFire/BloodFury(or trinkets)

That lonely rapid fire in the middle is still nice, but since it doesn't line up with other powers, it doesn't have as much "umph" as the ones at 0 and 6 minute marks.

Rapid fire = 40% haste for 15 seconds that's roughly 3~9 shots depending on shot cycle and weapon speed, it would be worth some mathamagics to actually see how that compares to 1% dmg but my wild speculation is they are probably very comparable. (And being a lazy player the timing of the powers lining would tip the scales to the 1% dmg for me)

#50 Disargeria

Disargeria

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 177 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:33 PM

4m rapid fire vs 3m rapid

How much of a gain is it to have rapid fire line up with every other set of 2m cool downs? Right now its:

0 minute - BW/RapidFire/BloodFury(or trinkets)
2 minute - BW/BloodFury(or trinkets)
3 minute - Rapid Fire
4 minute - BW/BloodFury(or trinkets)
6 minute - BW/RapidFire/BloodFury(or trinkets)

That lonely rapid fire in the middle is still nice, but since it doesn't line up with other powers, it doesn't have as much "umph" as the ones at 0 and 6 minute marks.

Rapid fire = 40% haste for 15 seconds that's roughly 3~9 shots depending on shot cycle and weapon speed, it would be worth some mathamagics to actually see how that compares to 1% dmg but my wild speculation is they are probably very comparable. (And being a lazy player the timing of the powers lining would tip the scales to the 1% dmg for me)


You can also shave up to 30% off of Bestial Wrath's cooldown. I'd like to see the math thrown in there, too.

#51 Sean

Sean

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 195 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:33 PM

I'm not sure I'm feeling Longevity - it does bring BW down to a 1.4m cooldown, but that completely desycns it from Bloodfury, Haste Potions, ect.

#52 Terp

Terp

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 108 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:36 PM

First thoughts:

Bear Trap would be exactly what hunters needed for PvP, if it weren't a trap. Hunters need some way to not be kited by their dps targets. All other PvP issues aside, it's an absurdity unique to the class and needed to be addressed. And Bear Trap looks to address that. Assuming it'll function like all other traps though, it will still need to be triggered, and it will still cause all the other traps to cooldown. Also depends on if it can be shifted out of (It's a bloody bear trap, it better not be) or dispelled.

Beastmastery seems nice. Pet attack speed is going to be barely above 1.0 with Windfury, SS, and Frenzy. If there's any sort of Cobra Reflexes type thing in the Pet Talent tree, things are going to get absurd along with Lust and Drums and whatever else.

Survival is distressing. I'm not a fan of the Imp Tracking change, as I typically leave Track Hidden up in arena. But more than that, the new talents aside from Hunting Party divide themselves up strictly between pvp and pve, something the other two don't. The entire tree is still very stratified actually, but I don't think anyone was expecting miracles. I suppose having two different specs in one tree is better than having useless junk, but still.

#53 Disargeria

Disargeria

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 177 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:38 PM

I'm not sure I'm feeling Longevity - it does bring BW down to a 1.4m cooldown, but that completely desycns it from Bloodfury, Haste Potions, ect.


True, but it also reduces the cooldowns on the pet abilities, which look to be very powerful.

#54 Doodicus

Doodicus

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:39 PM

Here's a thought for Chimera shot. When you reapply a sting does it refresh or overwrite the old one?

#55 Sean

Sean

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 195 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:41 PM

Somewhat. In the Ferocity tree that brings Rabid down to 7s from 10s, but that's kind of irrelevant as Rabid has a 30second duration. It does bring Call of the Wild down to 3.5 mins from 5 minutes, which is very nice. Though, Call of the Wild has a 100 focus cost - I guess you'd have to do a bit of micromanaging to use it a second/third time in a fight.

Ah, I guess more importantly - it brings Roar of Recovery from the Cunning tree down to 4.2m from 6m.

I've been messing around with both trees a bit and I'm definitely liking both Ferocity and Cunning, but not terribly impressed with the Tenacity tree.

#56 Gurth

Gurth

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 74 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:48 PM

Marks gonna be top dps again by a mile.

With the change made to Steady shot, BM lost most of its advantage over other specs, and the new talents seems to only help with efficiency rather than dps.

MM, on the other hand had huge dps buffs, regadless of chimera shot, which looks really weak to me. Extremely mana intensive to use and dps wise will probably do the same as arcane shot.


This will probably be my raid build:

7-59-5

#57 Norgl

Norgl

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:50 PM

The addition of customisable pet talents/skills is just fantastic, such a great move towards making interesting and unique combinations. The additions to Beast Mastery make it look huge in terms of raw dps, adding a dps specced pet to the equation should lead to some great numbers. I would certainly look to include a large number of the new end-tier talents in a BM PvE spec, something like the 51/15/5 linked earlier sacrificing Aspect Mastery for the more useful Longevity.

Survival looks equally awesome as a PvE spec, more than likely to push Marks out of the equation once again. The 51 talenter Explosive Shot looks highly situational, I would imagine it's rather useless in a PvE build, so would skip it and look towards something around a 7/14/50.

The two things that myself and I'm sure many others are grateful for are the Improved Tracking and Kill Shot (yay ranged execute!). I had been set on playing a Protection Warrior for the expansion but I can safely say these changes will keep me more than happy to stick with my Hunter.

#58 Disargeria

Disargeria

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 177 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:50 PM

Oh, you've found the pet talent trees? I've been looking for a while, but I haven't found anything on them, yet.

#59 Zediono

Zediono

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 33 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:50 PM

*Imp FD is weird - might have uses in pve for burst raid damage fights, or to survive a wipe while FDing on boss fights, but both seem extremely situational


At first I thought the same thing, but I realised that even in fights right now, this can be pretty handy. For example, I'd consider using it for the last 3 ticks of burn on brutallus if pots are on cooldown. If there are some fights like that in wotlk, I can see it being useful in those kinds of situations. And ofc, trying to save money on repair bills for the win :P

#60 Gleithan

Gleithan

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:51 PM

Somewhat. In the Ferocity tree that brings Rabid down to 7s from 10s, but that's kind of irrelevant as Rabid has a 30second duration. It does bring Call of the Wild down to 3.5 mins from 5 minutes, which is very nice. Though, Call of the Wild has a 100 focus cost - I guess you'd have to do a bit of micromanaging to use it a second/third time in a fight.

Ah, I guess more importantly - it brings Roar of Recovery from the Cunning tree down to 4.2m from 6m.

I've been messing around with both trees a bit and I'm definitely liking both Ferocity and Cunning, but not terribly impressed with the Tenacity tree.


I'm assuming you are talking about the pet talent trees. Would it be possible to post some screenshots/mre information about the talents (or point me in the right direction if they are up somewhere)? How powerful are five extra talent points from the Beast Mastery talent going to be?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users