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The WotLK profession thread


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#21 Calixtus

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:07 AM

Requiring interaction makes it hard for alts to be used as crafters though.

That's part of the point though. The less crafting you make possible via alts, or the harder you make it to aquire the recipies (... thus making it unlikely you'll get it on an alt) the more you increase the, well, "playability" of professions for individual players. If an alt can do everything I can do, I'm not particularly useful in regards to profession. Short of adding a limit to the number of characters per server (which has been done in other games) - or professions per server - there aren't that many ways to insure viability for professions for many players. Interaction requirements, is one way, Masteries, BoP recipies, rep recipies, raid recipies, lvl requirements for professions and so on, are other examples of similar systems. The only thing I don't get it why they're not taking steps to make it system-wide and not just enchanter-only.


Speaking of character development via professions, there's one thing about gathering profession that keeps irking me. The new stat bonuses are great, they really are, but... My main alchemist has been an alchemist since way before TBC, and all of TBC. If I leveled a second character, as fast as possible, and got him to 375 alchemy as fast as possible, there'd be a difference. My alt would lack many recipies - BoP, rep, BoE, discoveries - so he wouldn't be able to do as much. Where as my herbalist alt... There's nothing I can't do on my herbalist alt I can do on my herbalist main, despite significant difference in hours invested. The bonuses won't really change that. But that's not really what's irking me as much as the fact as what we have in BC is less than what we had in vanilla.

Finkle's Skinner, Pristine Hide of the Beast, Onyxia Scales, Core Leather, Bloodschythe, Bloodvine... They certainly weren't huge things, but they were... There. A gathering alt was that just dinged couldn't help with all of that (ignoring the raid instace requirements here ;) ) you'd actually need a dedicated and well geared practicioner of the gathering profession. I miss that, and I don't understand why they didn't have it in BC.

#22 songster

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:09 AM

Right now it seems that a majority of class spells will have Glyphs available, and all of the Glyphs scale with level.

This raises the question of when the Glyphs will be craftable. Unavoidably, some will be crafted at lower profession skill levels. If good glyphs are available at low skill, this will overpower Inscription in comparison to other professions at low levels and create a disproportionate demand for low-level herbs and other materials required.


Yup, just like jewelcrafting was OP because of all the gems you could cut at lower skill levels. Alternatively, not. Inscription also makes materials like parchments, ink and so on, scrolls, and low-power cosmetic glyphs. What on Earth makes you think they'll have to put overpowered high-end glyphs as low skill level items?

#23 Zurgat

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:18 AM

That's part of the point though. The less crafting you make possible via alts, or the harder you make it to aquire the recipies (... thus making it unlikely you'll get it on an alt) the more you increase the, well, "playability" of professions for individual players. If an alt can do everything I can do, I'm not particularly useful in regards to profession. Short of adding a limit to the number of characters per server (which has been done in other games) - or professions per server - there aren't that many ways to insure viability for professions for many players. Interaction requirements, is one way, Masteries, BoP recipies, rep recipies, raid recipies, lvl requirements for professions and so on, are other examples of similar systems. The only thing I don't get it why they're not taking steps to make it system-wide and not just enchanter-only.


That's the thing though, I doubt there's a single alchemist, enchanter, leatherworker or blacksmith who will be willing to make any lvl 1-300 craftables for you unless you bring a decent and out of proportions tip along with the mats.
If you can look at your alts for the more mundane craftables then you save them a lot of time, and yourself a lot of frustration trying to find someone to make the item for you. If I need something simple, i want to just make it and have it ready within minutes without having to spam a trade channel for the possible chance of getting scammed out of my materials, or bid on the AH in the hopes of winning the bid or paying a dozen times more than the item's worth.

BoP recipes are a good thing, and give the profession character. There's a limit to how far interaction should go though.
Ensuring that the high end, rare recipes are Bind on Pickup makes it so mainly high end guilds have the patterns. This makes the patterns rare, you're not likely to encounter scammers as they'd have a reputation to lose as a guild. But if almost nobody has the pattern on your server then you're just stuck with the earlier problem of having to spend hours in the trade channel to find someone.

Profession masteries are an option, but they'd have to be distilled into more than 3 categories. And, all trees should be worthwhile so you don't end up with "everyone" taking the same tree.

Requiring a player to find a scribe to insert or replace every single rune you carry would be over the top for sure.
I'd prefer them to be freely swappable like trinkets. Especially since some are just aesthetic effects like penguin poly.
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#24 pewsey

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:19 AM

I saw the drum debuff listed as well. My concern is that what happens to BC fights? they can tailor the new instances to take into account the potion sickness and drum debuff but as these can be staples of some BC fights I wonder if they plan to revisit those encounters.

Whomever was in charge of tailoring in BC did a bang up job. You could easily equip any cloth based class for the end game for the most part with just everyday work. The other professions were not so well served.

As for Inscriptions being permanent or exchangeable.

I vote for exchangeable glyphs. I would have assumed they would be like sockets, the player can select when and if to replace them individually. It could be as bad as having to pay a NPC to clear them like talent resets are handled.

If they are implemented as exchangeable there are ways for Blizzard to put limits on it so that we don't see people flipping inscriptions during a raid. It could be as simple as requiring a fixed item similar to the blacksmiths anvil, tailors mana loom, or such.


With due respect, the tailoring was just too good. I would have liked to have seen all professions have a mix between the quality of the tailoring patterns, with an upgrade path like blacksmithing.

If you notched down tailoring a bit (say to T4 levels) and each level (T5, T6) gave out an upgrade path - it would have been perfect. The current T6 patterns which are retardedly good, but impossible to find could just require some tokens from Felmyst/Twins/Mu'ru for the tailors/LW/blacksmiths to upgrade the items.

Agreed with glyphs. I'm picking "jewelcrafting mixed with enchanting". I'd say the mats for them will be expensive enough to not hot-swap them, in the same way that you'd not hot-swap enchant on weapons or gems in gear (or at least the vast majority of the raiding populace wouldn't)
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#25 Ellerain

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:20 AM

If an alt can do everything I can do, I'm not particularly useful in regards to profession. [...] The only thing I don't get it why they're not taking steps to make it system-wide and not just enchanter-only.

<special gathering stuff>


If somebody took a time leveling profession on an alt, he should be able to benefit from it (even on his other character). The disparity between crafting main and crafting alt is already covered via many means (you named them). There is absolutely no need to artificially require even more intercation by following enchanting-like system, because it is plainly annoying for many people.

And as for special gathering routines - there were Hyjal Mining nodes ^_^.
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#26 Zurgat

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:36 AM

If somebody took a time leveling profession on an alt, he should be able to benefit from it (even on his other character). The disparity between crafting main and crafting alt is already covered via many means (you named them). There is absolutely no need to artificially require even more intercation by following enchanting-like system, because it is plainly annoying for many people.

And as for special gathering routines - there were Hyjal Mining nodes ^_^.


The hyjal gems were also available trough black temple drops though, and now badges.
The sunmotes and hearts of darkness fall into the quite useful category, and there's patterns that use them for most classes.

It would have been interesting to see an enchanting recipe or 2 that used them as well though.


Sometimes it's early in the morning where there's nobody online, it's great to just be able to log an alt then.
But yes, If able i prefer to make my own stuff in general, it saves time and grief.
If i don't have a pattern, then guild members are the second spot to look which generally pays off.


For WotLK, I'm sure we'll see something similar to the hearts and sunmotes again, we can't be sure whether the sunmote system will be used again, personally i think it's quite useful that way. For other materials, even if they're available only in raids most such materials will end up in the guildbank and not really benefit the individual crafter.
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#27 Liebestod

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:39 AM

Right now I'm surprised by how powerful these Glyphs are. The Healing Touch one is huge, for example, though it arguably won't change Resto playstyle very much. But at the same time, I can't help but see some of these as further precipitating the erosion of class uniqueness.. which is a debate in and of its own right, I suppose, along with the fact that the devs seem intent on making the game require skill by making abilities more and more complicated so that optimal rotations become more difficult to determine on the fly.

However, my excitement about glyphs are largely dampened in the same way my excitment about the new talents are - there will almost surely be a cookie-cutter glyph set to go along with your cookie-cutter talent build. Unless good glyphs are actually difficult to attain - and if they were, the complaints would be endless - then I'm not sure if they'd add much to the game that couldn't have been added through new talents already. Personally, I'm a fan of interesting gear and set bonuses that force you to change your playstyle as you progress in order to remain cutting-edge, like with a lot of Mages switching to Arcane when they got 2/5 T5 bonuses. I don't think you'll ever see much diversity in high-end builds, which is why I don't think introducing new options will genuinely lead to more customization, but I think if Blizz makes it so that your playstyle has to change several times throughout your character's progression (and not just because spec X outscales spec Y), that'd be interesting.

Okay, this is getting kinda tl;dr. But the overall point is that I hope the more radical glyphs become fairly rare items that you acquire through endgame PvE or PvP, and then you take them to Inscriptors (maybe with some other mats) and have them Inscribed with whatever ability you want. And then you adjust your playstyle. And as you continue to progress and get better glyphs, you have to do this several times. The alternate goal of glyps, promoting a diversity of customization, is probably a lost cause..

#28 Hildegard

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:52 AM

I would personally favor more interaction. I can see the point if your server has the usual channel 2 spam, but on our server it is quite ok. Perhabs they should introduce better options for advertising or searching stuff than a channel. Maybe you could pay an NPC to announce what you offer or seek for a small fee and this could only be heard in trade districts.

There are many ways to promote interaction and the "I want something and I want it now" is always a bad approach. Every rogue wants wargleaves and you can fill in other stuff. The problem is that channel 2 is bad tool and not that interaction is bad by itself.
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#29 dlanod

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:55 AM

My gut feeling (and only that) would be that Inscriptions should be "poppable" for a gold fee, either paid to an Inscriber or some NPC. The glyphs end up in your inventory so you can swap them when respeccing. Seems like a fairly nice solution to me.

#30 Guest_Alcemon_*

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:57 AM

It's reasonable to suspect herbalism will get something like mining and skinning, maybe +25 fixed spirit.

The perks for Herbalists are probably s V2 like the following:
They don't seem to be that interesting (though a lot better than the original, for sure).

Apparently these do not share cooldown with Healthstones, but they do share the cooldown with drums.
Having a mana regen one would be nice.

#31 nj00s

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 11:58 AM

I would personally favor more interaction. I can see the point if your server has the usual channel 2 spam, but on our server it is quite ok. Perhabs they should introduce better options for advertising or searching stuff than a channel. Maybe you could pay an NPC to announce what you offer or seek for a small fee and this could only be heard in trade districts.

There are many ways to promote interaction and the "I want something and I want it now" is always a bad approach. Every rogue wants wargleaves and you can fill in other stuff. The problem is that channel 2 is bad tool and not that interaction is bad by itself.


A crafters hall with the auction house npcs and some form of advertisement system, as well as a forge, a trade goods vendor and other things crafters may want, could be a nice idea. Problem with this is that you actually have to travel there, which is the nice thing about the trade channel. An ad system would solve the problems the trade channel have with worthless spam though, it's near unusable on some servers at peak hours.

#32 Calixtus

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:25 PM

That's the thing though, I doubt there's a single alchemist, enchanter, leatherworker or blacksmith who will be willing to make any lvl 1-300 craftables for you unless you bring a decent and out of proportions tip along with the mats.
If you can look at your alts for the more mundane craftables then you save them a lot of time, and yourself a lot of frustration trying to find someone to make the item for you. If I need something simple, i want to just make it and have it ready within minutes without having to spam a trade channel for the possible chance of getting scammed out of my materials, or bid on the AH in the hopes of winning the bid or paying a dozen times more than the item's worth.

I guess you could put it like this; If you compare two characters, Adam and Bertrand, with the same profession and Adam has invested 20% of the time/effort/gold that Bertrand has in the profession, Adam should not be sitting on 90% of the financial viability. The purpose of all the limitations I've mentioned above is to prevent that.

Legacy items/Leveling items are not, for the most part, relevant when push comes to shove, or should not be (yes, I am remembering the enchanting rods here) at any rate. But even if they are, I'd say there's no such thing as an "out of proportion" tip. Supply and demand.


I'm inclined to say that the main reason people spend time in trade isn't too much inter-dependancies, but too little. Outside of our guild's - and depending on your guild, sometimes not even that - most of us aren't tracking who has what. There's no social networking of crafters to ensure that when you want your goods, you can get it, because there's "always" the auction house. And when the auction house isn't an option, the problem isn't that you have to look for one as much as it is that you have to look for one over and over again because you had no reason to stay in touch with the last guy you found. A system to help with this - be it an in-game billboard, or an out-of-game trade forum - would be quite an awesome addition, but I don't think the lack there of or an overabundance of inter-dependancy are the problems.

#33 Zorac

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:44 PM

Whomever was in charge of tailoring in BC did a bang up job. You could easily equip any cloth based class for the end game for the most part with just everyday work. The other professions were not so well served.


Nah they made a crap job, the cloth dpsers got a dps set that was onpar with t5 for t4 content which is simply stupid, otherclasses got screwed over, warriors had nothing, not a single epic dps armor piece to craft. We did get weapons though, but it wasnt nearly as big of a upgrade as the whole cloth seth was and you needed vorxtexes from ssc/tk to complete the weapon which made it balanced. Rogues/druids had a few pieces they could farm for pve dps I suppose, although I dont know how good they were at the time. Holy paladins had 1 item to craft and retri/prot pallys had nearly nothing at all (correct me here if im wrong)

So in my oppinion they fucked it up completely from the start

#34 Zurgat

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:55 PM

Nah they made a crap job, the cloth dpsers got a dps set that was onpar with t5 for t4 content which is simply stupid, otherclasses got screwed over, warriors had nothing, not a single epic dps armor piece to craft. We did get weapons though, but it wasnt nearly as big of a upgrade as the whole cloth seth was and you needed vorxtexes from ssc/tk to complete the weapon which made it balanced. Rogues/druids had a few pieces they could farm for pve dps I suppose, although I dont know how good they were at the time. Holy paladins had 1 item to craft and retri/prot pallys had nearly nothing at all (correct me here if im wrong)

So in my oppinion they fucked it up completely from the start


If i recall correctly : The rogue LW pieces were very much inferior to Tier 4. Mainly because our T4 was almost on par with the T5 set.
The epic craftable offhand sword inferior to a lvl 70 blue. Excepting the third tier, but by then there was the S2 arena sword.
Druid gear was pretty decent, the blues were among the better tanking gear for a good while. But most replaced by T4/5.

So, the cloth was probably rather strong compared to the other professions.
Cloth users won't complain about it, but making tailoring mandatory as it was for early raiders or rerollers wasn't exactly optimal.

This was already stated in the WotLK thread, but I'll put it in here too. Alchemists get "Alchemical blood" -effect in WotLK: basically it seems to increase the effect of flasks, elixirs and potions you can make by ~15-20%.

http://khorium.mmo-c...ood_trainer.jpg
http://khorium.mmo-c...d_spellbook.jpg

This will mainly affect PvE. It also gives a reason to have alchemy on your main char.


Still worthless for rogues, and probably most other classes then.
Especially since the potion chugging nerf makes the trinket worth less as well.

Currently a 20% to the flask stats would give 24 AP, which is 12 stat points.
Compared to 8 AP + 8 agi + 8 stam enchanting gets. or 2x20 in WotLK.

Not to mention the benefits of having something that's "always on" vs something that's both less good, doesn't work in pvp, and isn't likely to be used while grinding.
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#35 Vihermaali

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 01:20 PM

This was already stated in the WotLK thread, but I'll put it in here too. Alchemists get "Alchemical blood" -effect in WotLK: basically it seems to increase the effect of flasks, elixirs and potions you can make by ~15-20%.

http://khorium.mmo-c...ood_trainer.jpg
http://khorium.mmo-c...d_spellbook.jpg

It gives a reason to have alchemy on your main char in a better way than making "unique must have items", which is nice.

#36 Benita

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 01:31 PM

Keep in mind this is only a 25 spellpower buff with the new flask, which is the current buff enchanters get of ring enchants. Nice and more versatile, but not a replacement for the alchemist stone.

#37 Vasala

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 01:52 PM

I am personally hoping that the inscription glyphs will be something you learn and then drag and drop to the inscription slots to activate. This is so respecing does not become even more annoying. With the talked about change to allow 2 specs that a player can switch between it would seem like a step backwards to need to purchase new inscriptions every time a player swapped between these two specs.

While a casual player might not care that much that his inscriptions were not optimized you can bet that it will be a big deal for raiders. This will be especially true if we see more instances like Sunwell where the number of healers, tanks, and dps can change dramatically from one fight to the next.

#38 Sydane

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 02:06 PM

I really don't think there's anything that can be done to make the crafting professions more profitable than they were in BC. Primal Nethers for a long time were a big source of crafting profitability, so if there is something similar in the early stages of WotLK, that will be true again. But there are several things working again professions that keep them down.

1) The leveling process. So many people hand out free enchants, free crafting, and so forth "with your mats" in order to level faster. Thus, for anything but the absolute endgame enchants, there's almost always someone around who will do it for free. Not only that, but it creates an environment where people expect to get things done free.

2) Guilds. The typical behavior in a guild is to do the various professions for free for your guildmates. This means unless you are in a very small guild (which may become more common in WotLK), or you need it immediately, you can usually just wait around for a guildmate to do what you need for free. This also creates a general perception that crafting doesn't have much value beyond saving a little time.

3) Tipping. People are cheap and stupid. Even though you can make 30g in ten minutes quite easily, I've frequently had people decline 20g fees for enchants only to spam trade for 20 minutes looking for someone who will do it cheaper. The worst part is that crafters commonly offer their servers "free with tips," thus making the entire process random and unpredictable when it comes to profiting. And again, we have the environment created that things are free for "just clicking a button" but it would be nice to get a tip. Never mind the costs of patterns, hours of farming, and so forth. See a pattern here?

Basically, the problem is as much the players as it is the game design. Anyone who thinks that enchanters are going to make more money listing enchants on the open market is deluding themselves, people will just undercut each other, not to mention the 20g or more mat cost of the scroll to put the enchant on. It will be just like every other craftable item. People dump thousands of gold into patterns just to be able to do them for their guilds and treat it like an expense, keeping those prices so high that you'll rarely make money back on buying one.

The best thing Blizzard did with professions in BC was make them useful to have as an individual, with the added bonus of being able to craft things for other people. Every profession is profitable to a certain extent if you try hard enough (though none compare to gathering, but of course gathering is getting a lesser bonus as well), but the real benefit is to your character. They are expanding this even further in WotLK, for which I heartily applaud them.

#39 Cube

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 02:11 PM

3) Tipping. People are cheap and stupid. Even though you can make 30g in ten minutes quite easily, I've frequently had people decline 20g fees for enchants only to spam trade for 20 minutes looking for someone who will do it cheaper. The worst part is that crafters commonly offer their servers "free with tips," thus making the entire process random and unpredictable when it comes to profiting. And again, we have the environment created that things are free for "just clicking a button" but it would be nice to get a tip. Never mind the costs of patterns, hours of farming, and so forth. See a pattern here?


A "20g fee" isn't a tip. A tip is extra, which the other player may or may not give you. While it is nice, it should never be expected.

#40 Masaren

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 02:33 PM

Does anyone else see the direction were going at with these profession builds?

I can already see having to level up tailoring or leatherworking every time I get an upgrade for pants, leveling up smithing to put a socket in a new weapon, then leveling up jcing to make a jcing gem for that socket. Then Ill have to level up enchanting to enchant my new ring, then releveling alchemy and inscription for those buffs in order to maximize dps/healing/tanking.

It seems were completely moving away from professions being a choice and going to becoming a class and spec defining decision, at least for end game raiding. It just seems to me that what was started in TBC will become much worst now.

Unless everything is equalized, which it cant and wont be from what weve seen so far, youll have professions that stand out and are optimal choices for a given class and spec. For gathering professions, unless you have the buffs they give scale with each newly added endgame raid instance, they quickly become obsolete and really worth nothing as we upgrade gear. Sure 25 crit rating or 35 stamina is great as you enter Naxx, but if youre making BiS tailoring/smithing/lwing recipes from each tier, youll quickly outpace that and make that bonus null in the 2nd or 3rd tier. And if in each new tier you dont have a BiS crafted available to you, it really defeats the purpose of having those professions.

For myself, this is all exacerbated by the fact that if I do have to change a profession because X profession gives such a benefit to my class and my spec, then I have to drop either tailoring or enchanting to do so. Which means that I lose out on rare crafted recipes that I either grinded out or farmed in an instance that people wont be going back to anymore. At the very least Id like to see full crafted memory so that this doesnt happen.

Another thing which needs to be addressed in some way is tailoring and cloth drops. Id like to see some kind of benefit to drops of cloth if a tailor is killing a mob vs a non tailor. Tailoring for too long has the items needed to craft drop from mobs around the world, but anyone can farm these items. There should be an advantage to a tailor farming cloth vs a non tailor. Maybe something along the lines of 2x normal cloth drops if a tailor looted a mob vs non tailor. Something so that my tailor main has a reason to farm for cloth, so that if I need to farm for cloth, I can actually do so.




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