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Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)


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#21 Roywyn

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:04 PM

Perhaps I misunderstand something, but at lvl 74 227 haste rating converts to exactly 10% haste on my character sheet. Using your table, that would match the expected value at lvl 75. What am I missing?

Your character sheet rounds down haste and doesn't display fractional haste. (Which is kind of stupid.)
You do however get the full haste, even though the sheet rounds down.

At 74 with 227 haste, the table says you'd have 227/21.134... = 10.74098... % haste.
Is your Drain Soul 15s/1.1074098 = 13.545s cast time (spell book should round up to 13.55s)?
If it is, then you have the full 10.74098% haste and the table is correct.

If you hit 75 with the same gear, you should have 227/22.739... = 9.9828% haste.
The character sheet should then display 9% and Drain Soul should be 15/1.09828 = 13.5677s cast time (spell book should round to 13.57s).
If that's true as well it confirms the table.



Also, what's up with people complaining about the increase of stats/rating needed?

Let's take a simple model:
* At 70 in some blues you have 1k AP and a 70 DPS weapon. About 140 character pane DPS.
To increase that by 1%, you'd need 19 AP or 1% hit.
* At 80 in some blues you have perhaps 2k AP and a 120 DPS weapon, around 260 character pane DPS.
To increase that by 1%, you'd need 37 AP or 1% hit.

37 AP at 80 costs about twice as much as 19 AP at 70. That's why 1% hit at 80 has to cost about twice as much as 1% hit at 70.
The model is simple, but it shows the basic thing about scaling. Doubling the ratings/stats needed looks pretty natural.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#22 Erdluf

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:32 PM

Also, what's up with people complaining about the increase of stats/rating needed?


The gear reset is bigger than it was for TBC. For TBC, going from 60 to 70, we needed 58% more crit rating to keep the same crit%. At 80, we'll need 108% more crit rating than we did at 70. The same thing holds for most of these stats.

Now it may be that the gear reset is more gradual at first (outland greens at 61 were a huge jump over Azeroth greens at 60).

I'm not complaining about this. I'd find it pretty sad to go 5 levels before getting a gear upgrade.

#23 constantius

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:06 PM

Not sure if you care, but the current model is predicting a level 80 regen formula coefficient of 0.007029 (as compared to Live level 70 of 0.0093271). I don't believe RatingBuster currently has Spirit->Regen formula setup, but if you happen to want to add it, those are the numbers.

Full formula taking Intellect & Spirit to OO5SR regen at level 80:
5 * 0.007029 * sqrt {Int} * Spi


#24 Borodin

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:19 PM

Good work but as I understand it the following pairs of stats will be merged into single Ratings:

Hit / Spell Hit = Hit
Crit / Spell Crit = Crit
Haste / Spell Haste = Haste

Can someone from beta confirm how these got merged? Are they simply the average of the previous 2 stats or what?

#25 Sydane

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:25 PM

It is rather amusing (and somewhat annoying) to think that hitting level 80, still wearing Sunwell gear, characters will actually be a lot weaker, except for the increase in base damage from spells.

The massive increase also means trinkets like won't remain useful for nearly as long as some of the items like did, which is probably a good thing.

Good work but as I understand it the following pairs of stats will be merged into single Ratings:

Hit / Spell Hit = Hit
Crit / Spell Crit = Crit
Haste / Spell Haste = Haste

Can someone from beta confirm how these got merged? Are they simply the average of the previous 2 stats or what?


The ratings on gear were merged, nothing else. The ratings for individual character stats remain the same as now. A piece of gear with +Hit on it will give you both spell hit and melee hit, but in different percentage amounts.

#26 Borodin

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:28 PM

Aha that makes sense. Curse my lack of Beta access.

#27 Nezralix

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:32 PM

If these are accurate, then I suppose they make some sense. The 60->70 conversions probably weren't steep enough, given the 75% average increase in gear level. *If* they were happy with the level 60 conversion rates (as opposed to the level 70 conversion rates), and *if* 70 to 80 sees another 75% average increase in gear level, then you might assume roughly a 1.75*1.75 = 3.06 multiplier of the level 60 conversion rates (i.e. 14 critical strike rating per 1% crit converts to 14*3.06 = 42.8 critical strike rating per 1% crit). That is, if we don't consider the level 70 values at all.

And that appears to be approximately what we're seeing in these numbers (well, these indicate about a 3.2x multiplier).

So if the falloff is steeper than it was from 60 to 70, then it could well be because they're adjusting for a 60->70 transition that they didn't feel was steep enough, without actually nerfing the level 70 rates.

#28 Praetorian

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:39 PM

Fantastic post, thanks. Hopefully you can get a mod-author beta key soon.

#29 Lord BEEF

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 03:58 PM

This actually makes the new gems at level 80 slightly weaker than the ones we have at level 70.

That is to say, a 10 hit rating gem on a level 70 provides more hit than a 20 hit rating gem provides for a level 80. Very slightly so, but it's still there.

#30 Hamlet

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:03 PM

This actually makes the new gems at level 80 slightly weaker than the ones we have at level 70.

That is to say, a 10 hit rating gem on a level 70 provides more hit than a 20 hit rating gem provides for a level 80. Very slightly so, but it's still there.


Well, it's within an integer step of the same value (i.e. the amount of HR required to be exactly equal to the hit you currently get at 70 is between 20 and 21). I think that's all that's going on here.

#31 kalbear

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:05 PM

Sorry for being ignorant here, but why do we believe that all stats scale exactly the same way as haste does?

#32 Vulajin

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:07 PM

Sorry for being ignorant here, but why do we believe that all stats scale exactly the same way as haste does?


Because they all do from 1-70.

Yep, still a fucking idiot.


#33 Hamlet

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:08 PM

Sorry for being ignorant here, but why do we believe that all stats scale exactly the same way as haste does?


It's consistent with what they did from 60->70. All ratings conversions were given nice integer values at level 60, which were generally concordant with the pre-rating itemization costs of the underlying stats. Then all the coefficients were multiplied by the same value (41/26) to arrive the level 70 versions.

#34 kalbear

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:10 PM

Okay. So assuming that they've not changed that this will work. I've seen many people test this for haste; could we have some testing for some of the other conversion rates to make sure they correlate?

#35 Bisbus

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:14 PM

Am I crazy or will a fire mage only need 33 more hit rating at 80 than at 70? Assuming we're all using the melee scale now. If it's the spell scale I come up with two less rating needed.

9% miss rate minus 3% from talents= 6% needed x 32.8=196.8

With the increased ilvl values this leaves a ton of room for other stats.

#36 Akka

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:15 PM

If these are accurate, then I suppose they make some sense. The 60->70 conversions probably weren't steep enough, given the 75% average increase in gear level.

0_o

I don't know what's enough for you... If anything, they were far TOO steep.
The problem is in the extreme inflation in gear level, not the conversions.
And the problem is that they seem to follow an even more extreme road for WotLK.
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#37 Vulajin

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:23 PM

Okay. So assuming that they've not changed that this will work. I've seen many people test this for haste; could we have some testing for some of the other conversion rates to make sure they correlate?


Tested just now with hit, crit, haste, spell hit, spell crit, spell haste, and expertise using the formula for level 75, and all the values matched.

Yep, still a fucking idiot.


#38 Whitetooth

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:28 PM

Sorry for being ignorant here, but why do we believe that all stats scale exactly the same way as haste does?


Although I only posted the haste table to make this post simple, I actually have data from level 1 to 100 for every other rating. I did check the formula with everything and they match.

#39 Erdluf

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:47 PM

Am I crazy or will a fire mage only need 33 more hit rating at 80 than at 70? Assuming we're all using the melee scale now. If it's the spell scale I come up with two less rating needed.

9% miss rate minus 3% from talents= 6% needed x 32.8=196.8

With the increased ilvl values this leaves a ton of room for other stats.

Saying that +Hit applies to both melee hit and spell hit is not the same thing as saying that spell-hit will use the same table as melee hit.

Has anyone done the testing to see what table caster's are using? The test is trivial. Give yourself 9% spell hit (including talents) at 70 and attack a 73 mob. Is your miss rate 0% or 8% (or something entirely different)?

#40 frmorrison

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:49 PM

People have tested spell hit, it is 9%. That means there is no more hidden 1% resist chance.




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