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Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)


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#41 Lord BEEF

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:53 PM

Am I crazy or will a fire mage only need 33 more hit rating at 80 than at 70? Assuming we're all using the melee scale now. If it's the spell scale I come up with two less rating needed.

9% miss rate minus 3% from talents= 6% needed x 32.8=196.8

With the increased ilvl values this leaves a ton of room for other stats.


If you're grouped with an elemental shaman and a moonkin, you need zero hit rating on the entirety of your gear. This goes for most (all?) casters actually.

#42 Roywyn

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:08 PM

This actually makes the new gems at level 80 slightly weaker than the ones we have at level 70.
That is to say, a 10 hit rating gem on a level 70 provides more hit than a 20 hit rating gem provides for a level 80. Very slightly so, but it's still there.

Maybe we get a second set of higher level level epic gems after 1-2 raid tiers, just a thought.
[Edit]: We didn't get our current BC epic gems until the BT/Hyjal patch, for example.


Also, can you extract the armour value/damage reduction for level 80 (DPSing) and level 83 (tanking bosses)?
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#43 Hamlet

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:16 PM

Maybe we get a second set of higher level level epic gems after 1-2 raid tiers, just a thought.


But why would we expect them to? The original point of ratings was basically to prevent untenable perpetual increasing of %-based stats like crit and hit. Consistent with that, we'd expect gems to provide the same % of each in the next expansion as they do in the current one.

#44 kalbear

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:21 PM

Tested just now with hit, crit, haste, spell hit, spell crit, spell haste, and expertise using the formula for level 75, and all the values matched.

Although I only posted the haste table to make this post simple, I actually have data from level 1 to 100 for every other rating. I did check the formula with everything and they match.

Thank you both.

That's going to be very odd given what we've seen come out for itemization so far. Given items like Band of the Kirin Tor, we're looking at something that barely gives comparable results to most of the basic rep rewards out now. I guess that's similar to vanilla->TBC, but it goes somewhat in the face of their supposed goal to make the gear transitions less jerky relative to TBC gear.

It's also going to be much harder for warriors and paladins to hit the defense rating cap without their talents providing defense skill.

#45 Roywyn

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:52 PM

Thank you both.

That's going to be very odd given what we've seen come out for itemization so far. Given items like Band of the Kirin Tor, we're looking at something that barely gives comparable results to most of the basic rep rewards out now. I guess that's similar to vanilla->TBC, but it goes somewhat in the face of their supposed goal to make the gear transitions less jerky relative to TBC gear.

It's also going to be much harder for warriors and paladins to hit the defense rating cap without their talents providing defense skill.

Kel'thuzad gave ilvl 92 loot like and ilvl 89 weapons.
The first raid instance Karazhan gave ilvl 115 loot, a jump of 28 ilvls or 25%.

Kil'jaeden gives ilvl 164 loot like .
The newly added ring Band of the Kirin Tor is ilvl 200.
That's a jump of 36 ilvls or 22%.

If that ring is representative for the first 10-man raids, it's a similar relative jump like in Vanilla => BC after the 2.1 overhaul.
There will be a gear reset, level 80 blue items do have the budget to replace sunwell gear.

Yes, items that randomly pick 3 stats out of sta/int/spi/mp5/dmg/haste/crit/hit with random amounts of them will suck. But well designed socketed gear can outscale Kil'jaeden gear.
Weapons are already there, Weapons - Items - World of Warcraft has a level 78 dagger with more DPS than the Kil'jaeden drop.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#46 Aravan

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 05:57 PM

Does anyone know the rough numbers on the Agility to Dodge ratio?

At level 60 and 70, when you obtain 1% crit from agility, you also obtain 2% dodge from agility.

60: 29 agi = 1% crit = 2% dodge
70: 40 agi = 1% crit = 2% dodge

Does anyone know if these ratios still hold at 80?

#47 Whitetooth

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 06:16 PM

Maybe we get a second set of higher level level epic gems after 1-2 raid tiers, just a thought.
[Edit]: We didn't get our current BC epic gems until the BT/Hyjal patch, for example.


Also, can you extract the armour value/damage reduction for level 80 (DPSing) and level 83 (tanking bosses)?


The formula for armor damage reduction hasn't changed.

To get 75% reduction against level 83 bosses, 49905 armor is required.

function GetArmorReduction(armor, attackerLevel)
	local levelModifier = attackerLevel;
	if ( levelModifier > 59 ) then
		levelModifier = levelModifier + (4.5 * (levelModifier-59));
	end
	local temp = 0.1*armor/(8.5*levelModifier + 40);
	temp = temp/(1+temp);

	if ( temp > 0.75 ) then
		return 75;
	end

	if ( temp < 0 ) then
		return 0;
	end

	return format("%.2f", (temp*100));
end


#48 kalbear

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 07:12 PM

If that ring is representative for the first 10-man raids, it's a similar relative jump like in Vanilla => BC after the 2.1 overhaul.
There will be a gear reset, level 80 blue items do have the budget to replace sunwell gear.

They'll certainly replace it, but that's not what I was talking about. What I was saying is that the gear you'll have at the start of 80 (quest reward blues, heroic purples, random rep rewards) is going to be less powerful in comparison to the similar gear available to lvl 70s as you compare what the stats give you and how much they give you. At least if this ring is any comparison. That's entirely due to how these stats scale compared to before. Because the stats are scaling at a faster rate, in order to reach parity you would need the values on the items to scale at a faster rate. They're not, however, so relative to TBC we'll find that we won't be in the same place, power wise. Of course it really depends on the encounters whether this matters, but the benchmarks for classes won't be the same.

#49 Arindelest

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:06 PM

They'll certainly replace it, but that's not what I was talking about. What I was saying is that the gear you'll have at the start of 80 (quest reward blues, heroic purples, random rep rewards) is going to be less powerful in comparison to the similar gear available to lvl 70s as you compare what the stats give you and how much they give you. At least if this ring is any comparison. That's entirely due to how these stats scale compared to before. Because the stats are scaling at a faster rate, in order to reach parity you would need the values on the items to scale at a faster rate. They're not, however, so relative to TBC we'll find that we won't be in the same place, power wise. Of course it really depends on the encounters whether this matters, but the benchmarks for classes won't be the same.


While this may be true, Weapon DPS, Spell Power and Attack Power are continuously increasing. So even if you have less other stats (in %-based terms) at 80 then at 70, you have a ton more attack power/spell power.

This isn't any different than 60->70, compare T3 bracers to Kara bracers. The former has ~2% crit and 26 attack power @ 60, the latter has ~1% crit and 50 attack power @ 70. %-based stats go down, attack power goes up, and you make those %-based stats back up as you go through the content. Why? If it didn't work that way, each expansion would give you "more" crit or whatever, until you eventually ran into a hard cap (i.e., you can only have so much crit, 100%-dodge/parry/miss/resist etc.). And if they refused to scale the %-based stats for fear of running into that cap, then they'd be shoehorned into itemizing into only a few stats, again dramatically reducing the power of items.

#50 Latas

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:33 PM

To give a comparison using my 73 lock in beta.
Here are my stats with my percentages. For haste i calculated using spell casting times since the tooltip on the character screen does it by whole percentage points.

Stat - Rating - Percentage - Rating per %
Hit - 189 - 12.03% - 15.7107
Haste - 193 - 9.649% - 20.0021
Crit - 340 - 10.669% - 31.868
For crit i took out the amount given by int and the warlock constant of 1.701 .

Here are the calculations for int.
Int - 515 - 6.90% crit added - 74.6377 int for 1% crit (if its a direct conversion)


Hope these values help some in determining the new formula that was pushed last patch.

#51 Copernicus

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:44 PM

People have tested spell hit, it is 9%. That means there is no more hidden 1% resist chance.

Can you link to where the test has been done?

#52 frmorrison

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:47 PM

Here are the calculations for int.
Int - 515 - 6.90% crit added - 74.6377 int for 1% crit (if its a direct conversion)

Hope these values help some in determining the new formula that was pushed last patch.


That isn't correct. At 70, a Warlock needs around 82 int per 1% crit, and it will only go up with level.

It isn't a direct conversion, since base int numbers are ignored (your int without any gear on).

#53 frmorrison

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:56 PM

Can you link to where the test has been done?


I can't link to the BB.
The test was done by Malan, where he casted Lighting Bolts on a +3 mob for an while with 0 resists (he had 9% spell hit)


Logically, 9% is the caster cap because they want Healers and DPS to use similar gear.

#54 Hamlet

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:58 PM

I can't link to the BB.
The test was done by Malan, where he casted Lighting Bolts on a +3 mob for an while with 0 resists (he had 9% spell hit)


Logically, 9% is the caster cap because they want Healers and DPS to use similar gear.


But are we seeing evidence that spell hit is phasing out as a stat?

#55 Nezralix

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:02 PM

0_o

I don't know what's enough for you... If anything, they were far TOO steep.
The problem is in the extreme inflation in gear level, not the conversions.
And the problem is that they seem to follow an even more extreme road for WotLK.


I don't think you're looking at this objectively. You seem to be looking at it through the lens of somebody who's upset to be losing some amount of power while gaining ten levels. A reasonable concern, but that's just how ratings work. You need to be looking at it in terms of whether it's maintaining the consistency of the overall system given some average gear level.

The falloff was *not* appropriate with the increase in item level from 60 to 70. A max-level blue item was ilvl 60 (maybe 65) in pre-TBC, and ilvl 115 in TBC. That's at least a 75% increase in power, or as much as 90% given how many high-tier dungeon blues were even worse than ilvl 60. Meanwhile, the conversion rate only increased by 57%. Per point of item budget given to a rating stat, you're getting a better deal in TBC than in pre-TBC. An item with, say, 2% crit at level 60 had 28 crit rating. That same item in TBC has approximately 52 crit rating, and it's giving a level 70 player 2.4% crit.

Now, we don't know exactly what ilvl a max-level blue in WotLK is going to be. I'm going to try to extrapolate a little bit: A WotLK level 70 blue is ilvl 130. A random level 75 blue is around ilvl 171. Taking the difference and adding it to ilvl 171 gives us ilvl 212. That's probably pretty close to what a level 80 blue will be; it's 84% higher than a max-level TBC blue, and about 250% higher than a level 60 blue.

Now, suppose rating conversions had increased by only 57% again, so that it takes 22.1*1.57 = 34.7 crit rating per 1% crit. That level 60 item referenced earlier, with 28 crit rating, now has 98 crit rating; it's giving us 2.8% critical strike chance at 80, quite a bit higher than the 2% crit it was giving us. This trend doesn't work out.

Basing it on the conversion values we're seeing in the OP, that item with 98 crit rating is giving us 2.1% critical strike rating, basically putting in line with what we'd expect against level 60 items.

So if they feel that the TBC conversion drop-off wasn't appropriately steep, then they have to overcorrect somewhat now if they're not happy with it. Not so good for players with exceptional level 70 gear, I suppose, but really not the worst thing in the world.

EDIT: Also, they're not really following a more pronounced inflation level in Wrath, it appears to be roughly the same deal. And ironically, ratings were introduced precisely to prevent the loot system from exploding from gear inflation, so your point suffers there.

#56 Latas

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:15 PM

That isn't correct. At 70, a Warlock needs around 82 int per 1% crit, and it will only go up with level.

It isn't a direct conversion, since base int numbers are ignored (your int without any gear on).


Ok yeah it seemed a bit odd, ill do it by difference instead. I every point of int i dropped it seemed to cause the crit from int by .01% so at 73 it would seem that its 100 int to 1% crit.

#57 Hamlet

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:16 PM

Ok yeah it seemed a bit odd, ill do it by difference instead. I every point of int i dropped it seemed to cause the crit from int by .01% so at 73 it would seem that its 100 int to 1% crit.


You're getting closer. Can you just post the values at two levels of Int which are very far apart?

#58 frmorrison

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:20 PM

But are we seeing evidence that spell hit is phasing out as a stat?


The only gear I have seen is "leveling" gear, and I haven't seen hit cloth, but I expect that.


For my Warlock buddies, they need 236 spell hit for 9% hit on Soul Shatter (since currently no talent affects that spell, maybe a Major Glyph will add some hit), so I would hope there is still some hit gear. I bet the Tier sets have hit rating and the more cloth gear will have sockets, so a healer can put spirit or whatever while the Warlock puts hit rating as needed in it.

With BC's 16% hit cap with level 80 ratings, they would need 422 hit rating, which isn't fun.

#59 Copernicus

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 09:32 PM

But are we seeing evidence that spell hit is phasing out as a stat?

We are aware of the concerns with reaching the hit rating cap, and will make sure Druids can pick up Rogue items to wear without exceeding that cap. This means Rogues will likely socket for hit, while Druids socket for Strength or Agility.

WoW Forums -> Cat form end-game scaling...

----------

Looks like they expect socketing to close the gap for hit rating with more generic gear options.


And with group synergy (Totem of Wrath and Improved Faerie Fire) and everyone using their 3% hit talents, people can get away with having 0 hit rating on gear.


And as a side note, it looks like this is similar to the Crushing Blow change, where they moved the gap from +3 to +4 levels. Manly had 13% hit and was still missing on +5 level mobs, when that would always be a hit if spells were using the melee hit table.

#60 Akka

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 11:50 PM

I don't think you're looking at this objectively. You seem to be looking at it through the lens of somebody who's upset to be losing some amount of power while gaining ten levels. A reasonable concern, but that's just how ratings work. You need to be looking at it in terms of whether it's maintaining the consistency of the overall system given some average gear level.

Actually, what upset me is more the excessive power inflation that seems out of control and ruins a lot of the immersion in the game (and even, often, the mechanisms themselves), and the fact that each of these "gear reset" are too excessive and make the entirety of the previous part of the game completely obsolete (to the point that it's counter-productive to run Strat/Scholo/BRS at lvl 58-59, and better to get greens in the Outlands).

The falloff was *not* appropriate with the increase in item level from 60 to 70. A max-level blue item was ilvl 60 (maybe 65) in pre-TBC, and ilvl 115 in TBC. That's at least a 75% increase in power, or as much as 90% given how many high-tier dungeon blues were even worse than ilvl 60. Meanwhile, the conversion rate only increased by 57%. Per point of item budget given to a rating stat, you're getting a better deal in TBC than in pre-TBC. An item with, say, 2% crit at level 60 had 28 crit rating. That same item in TBC has approximately 52 crit rating, and it's giving a level 70 player 2.4% crit.

Now, we don't know exactly what ilvl a max-level blue in WotLK is going to be. I'm going to try to extrapolate a little bit: A WotLK level 70 blue is ilvl 130. A random level 75 blue is around ilvl 171. Taking the difference and adding it to ilvl 171 gives us ilvl 212. That's probably pretty close to what a level 80 blue will be; it's 84% higher than a max-level TBC blue, and about 250% higher than a level 60 blue.

Now, suppose rating conversions had increased by only 57% again, so that it takes 22.1*1.57 = 34.7 crit rating per 1% crit. That level 60 item referenced earlier, with 28 crit rating, now has 98 crit rating; it's giving us 2.8% critical strike chance at 80, quite a bit higher than the 2% crit it was giving us. This trend doesn't work out.

Excuse me, but you're reinforcing my point instead of disproving it :

"The problem is in the extreme inflation in gear level, not the conversions."

It's not that the rating haven't sunken fast enough, it's just that the items were too powerful (although I'd like to point you that you compare the ilevel of an epic item to the ilevel of a rare item in one case, and two epics in the other).

And the same seems to be the case in WotLK, with insane increase of power, but at the same time insane lowering of the ratings effects.
Wouldn't it be more subtle, efficient and believable to have less steep curve in the rating downgrade, but at the same time a less steep curve in the ilvl upgrade ?

EDIT: Also, they're not really following a more pronounced inflation level in Wrath, it appears to be roughly the same deal. And ironically, ratings were introduced precisely to prevent the loot system from exploding from gear inflation, so your point suffers there.

There is twice as much loss of efficiency between lvl 70 and lvl 80 than between lvl 60 and lvl 70. It's clearly steeper.
And I don't see how my point suffer, on the contrary : why fight inflation by changing the whole game system, if it's to keep with increasing this same inflaiton ?
Just make less ilvl increase. Start with blue ilvl 110-115 at lvl 70 (so they are on-par with previous max instances, not phasing them completely out of the game, at least for the alts coming thereafter), and only increase up to ilvl 150-160 blue for ilvl 80 five-men instances.
Meaning that T7 would be about ilvl 165-170 epics, just a bit above Sunwell. All's good, there is still progression, and you have avoided overinflation. WHY the need to jump into the stratosphere with ilvl 200 epics as first-tier raid gear ? This just scream about putting big numbers without a reason, and increasing the inflation problem.
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