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WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3.3 live)


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#5341 feior

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 07:08 AM

The BiS Fire gear includes 1163 haste rating, that's 35.47%. Raidbuffed that's 46.5% haste not including 2t10, haste potions, power infusion or heroism. Any of them (especially pointing at 2t10 which is up most of the time) will push you way over the GCD haste cap, thus haste in BiS gear (and actually any reasonable high level gear) doesn't affect Pyro/LvB most of the time."

Sorry I was assuming mages had high crit and < 30% haste. But I did forget about the 2pcT10. Of course, I've never really seen blizzard care that much about GCD caps anyways. Wrath has been GCD capped at 400 haste for over a year now. Resto shammies have a harder time, but they can reach their haste soft cap too. Destro locks as well have some pretty strict GCD caps. I would very much doubt they redesigned a glyph to alleviate caps of sorts, which was I stated that the reasoning for the change is skeptical.

And quite honestly, I don't really care what the glyph does. It could have said "Generates sparkles that grants 5% more spell power for 3.8 seconds everytime you /dance", I'm just trying to compare the value of the old glyph vs the new glyph. I guess the reason why I don't care is because I'm not a mage, I'm a boomkin. What do I care if mages do 40 dps or 40k dps. All I wanted to do was point out that for most fire mages, this is a nerf because they can simply swap out crit gear for haste gear and get more haste out of it.

#5342 Hidden

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 11:19 AM

Sorry I was assuming mages had high crit and < 30% haste. But I did forget about the 2pcT10. Of course, I've never really seen blizzard care that much about GCD caps anyways. Wrath has been GCD capped at 400 haste for over a year now. Resto shammies have a harder time, but they can reach their haste soft cap too. Destro locks as well have some pretty strict GCD caps. I would very much doubt they redesigned a glyph to alleviate caps of sorts, which was I stated that the reasoning for the change is skeptical.

And quite honestly, I don't really care what the glyph does. It could have said "Generates sparkles that grants 5% more spell power for 3.8 seconds everytime you /dance", I'm just trying to compare the value of the old glyph vs the new glyph. I guess the reason why I don't care is because I'm not a mage, I'm a boomkin. What do I care if mages do 40 dps or 40k dps. All I wanted to do was point out that for most fire mages, this is a nerf because they can simply swap out crit gear for haste gear and get more haste out of it.


First off, haste is way stronger than crit as Fire until the soft cap but you easily get way over that cap without gems in Fire BiS gear. After that cap haste is still about as strong as SP (e.g. Black Magic is still the best 1h enchant) and crit is slightly stronger than SP point by point. In the Fire BiS gear you have 12SP/10Crit in every yellow and red gem slot, resulting in 1594 crit rating including Molten Armor (1340 without it) and 1163 haste rating from gear alone.

Since the haste from the glyph is never wasted (I don't think you can reasonably cap FB on GCD) you'd need to use the way higher value of haste prior to the soft cap if you wanted to compare it to crit rating. If you currently swap out crit for haste gear you'll obviously end up at the same FB cast time with less crit loss for FB, but you're also losing lots of crit for Pyro/LvB and gaining absolutely nothing for those spells.

In the end you cannot really argue it's a nerf. You get around the same DPS as before (even slightly higher on average in Fire gear) while having more mobility.

#5343 komma

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 03:02 PM

...All I wanted to do was point out that for most fire mages, this is a nerf because they can simply swap out crit gear for haste gear and get more haste out of it.


I disagree with your assessment, but not because of the actual math. I think you're making 2 unrealistic assumptions. At risk of repeating some things that have already been said, I'll try to present what I'm saying in an organized manner.

The first assumption you made was that there's some point at which haste and crit are roughly equivalent in value, and therefore mages would drop one for the other to achieve this "balance". The reality is that haste is the superior stat, at least for all of the gearsets I have come across so far. The "why" part isn't important - whether it's because of high base crit values or anything, it doesn't matter. It's just the raw value that is superior. In other words, nobody will be gemming replacing their haste gems with crit gems just because of the glyph.

The other assumption you made, is that you can take haste and crit values as "pseudo-DPS" values. On theoretical Patchwerk fights in spreadsheets this makes sense, but in practice, any significant reduction to the long cast time of fireball is going to cause considerable change in the playstyle. Target swapping fights, movement fights and the such will all penalize fire specs a lot less significantly. The increased frequency of fireballs is going to change hot streak frequencies and behavior.

Most importantly, with current levels of haste, a 0.15 second cut on fireball, combined with T10ish haste, will likely cause the 2T10 to affect an extra fireball under the regular "hot streaked pyro followed by 3 fireballs" situation. This is a very significant threshold value.

In short, you're trying to oversimplify a problem by estimating "DPS values" from haste and crit. In reality, spec performances just aren't continuous curves that gain X DPS from Y haste/crit.

#5344 Elut

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 05:58 PM

It has been established that certain spells with side-effects get multiple chances to proc (Improved Shadow Bolt, and various frost mage spells with Fingers of Frost).

Before I do the testing, has anyone checked if the improved scorch debuff makes scorch is such a spell?

If so, the Scorch blaster spec is coming extremely close to the Fireball spec - at least for those of us who happen to be using anyway. My numbers are rawr are already showing that ScLBPyro is within 200 dps of FBLBPyro, assuming I move 3 talent points and glyph to optimize for each configuration. Scorch already benefits from being faster (thus procing more Hot Streaks per cast time, and more valks per cast time) and from having an insanely good glyph. Doubling the valk procs would put the Scorch version slightly ahead.

There are a couple of downsides, of course. Scorch is just too fast and too easily haste capped - Bloodlust (and troll Berserking) becomes almost totally useless. Even ignore the haste issue, the potential win is small... probably too small to justify sticking with Nibelung over an otherwise better item.

Scorch is either slightly better or slightly worse than Fireball (depending on whether it double procs valks) if you meet the following conditions:
- You are using anyway.
- You have no shaman (non-optimal 10 man).
- You are not a troll.

#5345 Enthorn

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 09:26 PM

Elut, I do not recommend using Nibelung. I used it for a few weeks in 10-man and 25-man raids (the 264 version) and have recently switched back to . Illumination is without a doubt a far superior staff, despite being 19 levels below. A 264 mainhand+offhand would be better, but it's even stronger than 50771+ in most situations, given that Hit Rating is so frequent on gear (to the point where I have a more difficult time trying to find places to get rid of it).

I don't believe that the Scorch debuff counts as a secondary spell. Real ways to increase the frequency of Nibelung procs involve Molten Armor and Frostfire Bolt (or Frostbolt with Fingers of Frost). Every time you get hit by melee and Molten Armor procs, it is considered a spell cast, and Nibelung can proc from it. Molten Armor also has a guaranteed reflection. I've been hit multiple times and Molten Armor has reflected in such a way that it has caused two Val'kyrs to proc from what would normally seem like one hit (though you cannot get multiple Val'kyr procs per cast). Two points in Molten Shields extends this to ranged attacks and spells that hit you. As such, I see a lot of Val'kyr procs in PvP settings.

Nibelung is definitely a bad choice for Blood Princes and Lich King. They end up attacking the wrong targets routinely, and unless you are a Frost Mage with Water Elemental out, you cannot give pet commands to the Val'kyr (tried it, with multiple macros).

They have a vastly shorter duration on Blood-Queen, due to the AoE pulse (they will appear to heal from it, but they cannot heal faster than the incoming damage, so eventually they will die). They can easily die in the flames (frost damage) on Lord Marrowgar (which most often happens in Bonestorm phase, since flames shouldn't be a problem any other time if you're standing close enough). They can prematurely die on Festergut (Pungent Blight, and I'm not completely sure, but I think Vile Gas can affect them if it hits you). They can die on Rotface pretty easily to the Slime Spray (because they won't follow you out of it). They can die to a number of things on Putricide.

The problem is that Nibelung requires a set amount of procs to ensure that its DPS is competitive with other 264 items/combinations. I ran some numbers in Rawr and my findings were that, compared to and , needs to proc 7.14 Val'kyrs on a 5 minute fight to be on par with it. Compared to , it needs to proc 5.24 Val'kyrs. Compared to Illumination, it needs to proc ~3 Val'kyrs.

Numbers on meters may be a bit misinforming. The easiest way to look at Nibelung, for instance, is to look at the percent of damage that the Val'kyrs are doing compared to overall damage. Yet this is relative to how much damage each caster is doing. Naturally, Rawr has me doing much more DPS than I ever would be doing, so in Rawr, the Val'kyr damage percentage is a lot lower (around 3-4%) than what it usually is (5-10%). That doesn't mean it's a great staff though. It's nice for the spellpower (especially the 277), and it's great in PvP. It's also really fun on trash pulls... but I don't think it's a great investment for anything else. And since it's effectively broken on Lich King (Val'kyrs routinely were doing ~65% of their damage to Ghouls), it doesn't mean that much to me in PvE anymore.

#5346 Elut

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Posted 09 March 2010 - 09:58 PM

Enthorn - I am not passionate about Nibelung. I use it now simply because I am restarting my raiding now, and I do not have a better option.

That being said, it does not seem as bad as you make out. Why does 5-10% of your damage not make it a great staff? Mistargeting is a non-issue on most fights - you can always swap it out for LK and Princes. If you replaced the proc with a special effect of "increases your damage by 5-10%" you would use it for sure. Even 3% puts it on par with 100 haste + 100 crit in real terms. Basically, for any fight where I see it posting 3%+ without heavy mistargeting issues, I will call it "good". Make it 5%+ and I'll call it "great". Make it 10% and I will never use anything else for that fight.

Anyway, whether the item is normally "good" or "bad" I will still try to find ways to abuse it.

#5347 TigaFin

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 12:33 AM

For people paying EP or DKP for the staff, the option to swap it out for a few fights isn't very pleasant because you end up paying for two weapons instead of just one, reducing your ability to get proper upgrades for other slots.

The "cool factor" is very high and there are cases where it does superbly well (I like it especially on Valithria Dreamwalker). It has a high drop chance and it drops early in the 25 man instance, so it's easily accessible to people who desperately need weapon upgrades. Because of these factors, I think Blizzard has done a good job on it. If it dropped from the LK, it would probably be seen as a disappointing weapon (despite the coolness).

Of all mage specs, it suits frost best. Frost probably gets the highest benefit from AOE and you actually have full control of what the Val'kyr attack, because you have a permanent pet bar. The control you get on the pets opens up some new possibilities (like intentionally having the val'kyr offtank something or break out things like web wraps while you continue AOE). Frost mages are probably also the most likely to be the beggars in the raid, desperately trying to get a decent weapon.

I don't think you will get an extra proc chance from improved scorch. I certainly don't get a higher proc chance on frostbolts from winter's chill. The thing about scorch spec though is that the cast time is extremely short, so this alone will increase the proc chance. I guess one could say that if you insist on playing scorch spec (for whatever reason), Nibelung might actually be a pretty nice weapon.

#5348 Enthorn

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 01:47 AM

That being said, it does not seem as bad as you make out. Why does 5-10% of your damage not make it a great staff?


With gems, you gain 122 crit (2.66%), and 145 haste (4.42%) with , and 126 Spell Power with . Illumination comes in at 1594 DPS. Without a proc, Nibelung is at 1302 DPS. Even the 277 Nibelung, without its proc, is at 1521 DPS. The massive loss of passive crit/haste, even when compared to enormous spell power gains (236 SP for the 277), doesn't offset a 245 staff, and clearly doesn't offset a 264 staff or 264 main/offhand combination. Requiring Val'kyrs to proc X number of times just to see Nibelung be on par with other weapons isn't something I feel comfortable leaving to chance. The 2% proc rate and the frailty of the Val'kyrs (despite healing for 3,150 every ~1.5 sec) means that even when one does proc, it's not guaranteed to be able to DPS for its full length.

It is a very cool staff, and it does work a lot better with Frost, for all the reasons TigaFin mentioned. I notice it procs a lot more with my Frostfires in PvP than it does with Fireball in PvE, and I reckon this is because of the DoT on Frostfire Bolt. Likely this would be the case for Fireball if the glyph didn't remove the DoT. However, I'm not entirely sure it's the DoT causing it. I run 2/3 Frostbite and it's entirely possible that the freeze proc is counting as a spell and proccing Val'kyrs. This would affect Frostbolt then too (as does Fingers of Frost, and this is also why Val'kyrs can proc from each wave of Blizzard, whereas Living Bomb DoT ticks cannot proc it). Remember: it's the spell cast that summons the Val'kyrs, not the spell damage. You can get a Val'kyr proc just from putting Living Bomb on something (which doesn't do instant damage).

Likewise, Nibelung can proc from the Living Bomb explosion, and I believe this is because the explosion at the end is considered a separate spell from the DoT.

I've also heard that Frost benefits more from Nibelung because Frost, supposedly, benefits less from Haste/Crit than other classes. I haven't verified this in Rawr myself, but if it interests you, you may want to take a look at that, especially considering Frost's upcoming changes in 3.3.3.

#5349 Elut

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 02:20 AM

With gems, you gain 122 crit (2.66%), and 145 haste (4.42%) with , and 126 Spell Power with . Illumination comes in at 1594 DPS. Without a proc, Nibelung is at 1302 DPS.


I think we are violently agreeing. 3% valks dps makes up this different nicely, 5% more than makes it up, and 10% is crazy good.

Anyway, I am still not advocating this weapon as being superb. I am using it as my best current option, and will keep it for some fights once I have better.

I was also not advocating a Scorch spec with it, except as a novelty. Because I play a troll it is not a novelty that is useful to me personally anyway.

#5350 Enthorn

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 03:44 AM

Val'kyr damage though is relevant to your own damage (and fight length/DPS) though. Think about it: if you do 100 DPS and 1 Val'kyr procs, they'll have like 99% damage. Regardless, I find Nibelung to be especially good on Deathbringer Saurfang, and, as TigaFin mentioned, Dreamwalker (which I do as Frostfire -- lots of instant spells -- Fire Blast, Dragon's Breath, Blast Wave, Living Bomb, and instant Flamestrikes after DB/BW). It's related to the same concept as Scorch spamming -- the more instant spells you have, the more spell casts you have in general, which means more spells from which Nibelung can proc.

After a few weeks of using Nibelung on all fights, I've gone back to only using it on the two that I mentioned above, and trash pulls (where Val'kyr damage can easily hit ~20% of your total damage, and your total DPS using LB/Flamestrike spam ~23-25k depending on number of targets).

#5351 duloth

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 09:25 AM

To add to the Nibelung argument i've tested and noticed that the damage they do doesn't scale up with various buff.

In my guild i'm one of the first target to be bitten by BQL and the Valkyrs still have their static damage, while having an additional haste/crit would benefit more of the debuff. On LK on our try before the first kill they ended up shotting the low life Drudge Ghouls and wasting the plague on them.

End of the story, on fights like Festergut it may be usefull to use it if you have no better combo (another staff or mh/oh).
On fights where you get a damage "buff" of any sort or when you have to do focused burst on targets (Twin Valkyrs, BQL, Lich King, Putricide, Sindragosa) you'll end better using other weapons.

#5352 Enthorn

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 07:41 PM

Val'kyrs scale with debuffs -- same as mirror images -- and cannot be affected by buffs (such as bloodlust). Thus, they benefit from Curse of Elements (or other equivalent 13% magic damage debuffs) and possibly Totem of Wrath's 3% crit (since that is a debuff). But yes, that is an excellent point duloth. Not only do Val'kyrs die prematurely on Blood-Queen, but they will hold you back on the 100% damage boost.

I think Rawr actually has them doing less damage than they really do. It's listed as 27,008 unbuffed damage. In spell damage breakdown, it's listed as 94,421.54 with 3.13 hits (on a 5 minute fight, using Fire). This works out to 30,166.62 damage per hit. However, 27,008*31.13 = 30,519, which means total damage for 3.13 hits should be 95,524.59.

I'm not entirely sure if there are any other debuffs I'm missing either. Most magic damage increases are buffs, not debuffs. Regardless, shows to be slightly ahead of (22.11 DPS difference) in my 10-man raid setup, but in my 25-man raid setup, Nibelung is 31.9 DPS behind Illumination, and this is likely because of the scaling issue that Duloth mentioned. I have vastly more raid buffs in 25-man (Arcane Empowerment, Swift Retribution, Elemental Oath, Focus Magic, Totem of Wrath, and Misery. All of these make the passive crit/haste ever more lucrative. So that's definitely something to think about -- Nibelung gets 'better' the less buffs a group has.

#5353 Ragnar9000

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Posted 26 March 2010 - 04:56 PM

I haven't seen anything here lately about patch 3.3.3. I am liking the change to Brain Freeze. Glyphed for the 5% bonus damage to Frostbolt now means that you can still slow mobs sometimes, with instant cast Frostfire bolts. I am thinking about the Saurfang where I am always a kiter, being a frost mage. It's probably best to always slow the beasts rather than hope for a Brain Freeze slow or Deep Freeze stun.

Speaking of that fight, I run it on 10s a lot. I park my Water Elemental somewhere out of the way as I am worried about it being too close to me or someone else. I can't do that on 25s. Is Blood Nova a concern for my Elemental, or can I stack it on myself in 25s without worrying about Blood Nova AoE damage?

#5354 Ilyawen

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 01:23 PM

The exact weighing of your stats can change very quickly depending on your current gear. From what I've seen so far personally, crit has always been more valuable for me then haste, but 23 Spellpower in a red socket still wins out slightly. That is under a situation in pretty much fully arcane-balanced gear, so I have a somewhat big deficit on crit. If I would be able to get a big crit-boost, like Muradins Spyglass, this might actually change quite quickly, since the numbers are really not far off.
In the end, as always, this is the exact question that Rawr is made for. There is no overall, 100% viable rule for the balancing of stats, but Rawr can give you pretty precise data based on your gear and usual raidsetup. Use it.

On a more practical note, I personally simply keep my SP/haste gems in use. If you are raiding in PvE, and want to be able to provide the benefits of an arcane specc ocassionaly, its a good idea to keep your gear versatile. SP/haste might be a tad bid worse for fire then SP/crit, but the difference is slim. SP/crit for arcane on the other hand is a pretty terrible choice, so by socketing it, you'd be spoiling your arcane-gear.

#5355 Lileith

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 01:31 PM

Another effect of crit gem (and the stat as a whole for trinkets ect) is the reduced rng. It was so long since I played fire that I totally forgot how rng can affect your dps, the variance on short fights, depending how often you crit and the amount of 2 crit streak is quit painful (It's a matter of choice here but I hate rng).

At 50% crit the variance is maximum, then every crit % you gain reduce the variance. Closer you are from 100% smoother is your dps.

#5356 Roywyn

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 10:51 PM

Alright, I did a little clean-up of the original post since the Cataclysm class changes will come up tomorrow. One of final changes that had been missing was adding that (Enhancement) Shaman trigger Torment the Weak in raids with Earth Shock.
When updating the post however, all the item links went kaputt, not sure how valid item links are made now.

When someone with beta acces opens a new thread for Cataclysm mechanics, feel free to copy information from this post and thread for an easier start with a short mention or reference. I feel a bad already that it took me until now to add a little acknowledgement to this post for the countless contributions of named and nameless authors.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.




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