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#1 Shandara

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 08:40 AM

Hunter DPS Spreadsheet
This is a continuation of Cheeky's DPS spreadsheet (see here). It doesn't presume to be 100% accurate and is in fact only a theoretical approximation of a stand-up tank-and-spank fight. That said, I hope results are consistent enough compared to 'real world' practice so you can use the sheet as an item/spec comparison tool.

Made in Microsoft Excel 2007
No Open Office version available, SO QUIT ASKING OR KAUBEL WILL BAN YOU FOR BEING STUPID.

Latest EXCEL version can be found here: Version 93k (3 July 2010)

A good guide (courtesy of Har) can be found here.

Last Change log:
v93i
- Chimera Shot now uses normal Culling the Herd/T10 2p bonus values instead of full values when serpent sting is refreshed to carry %damage bonuses.
- Wodin's Lucky Necklace location updated to be both 10/25-man ICC
- Aldriana's Gloves of Secrecy (normal) stats corrected
- Nerub'ar Stalker's Cord socket bonus corrected
- 3.3.3 PTR: Ferocious Inspiration change setting added to settings page (default ON)
- Added more detailed drop location information (thanks to Leggo of EJ)
- Regemmer fix to deal with items with only red sockets which have a +hit bonus (Handgrips of Frost and Sleet)

V93j:
- Plague-soaked Leather Leggings stats (normal and heroic) corrected per Armory
- Njordnar -> Njorndar
- Handgrips of Frost and Sleet/Scourge Stranglers, heroic versions now marked as such for gear planner
- removed PTR tag for Ferocious inspiration changes, now always on
- Serpent Sting crit damage bonus changed to 100% base
- Added distant land (h) to gear drop down menu
- Fixed bug with regemmer involving ArP gems and shifting dreadstones

V93k:
- Added Halion loot
- Seal of Many Mouths stats fixed (normal version)
- Vengeful Noose socket bonus fixed

Credits:
Cheeky
Lactose
Ravenfire
Chul
Wertez
Indora
(and of course all the other posters on these forums)

#2 Shandara

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 08:40 AM

Frequently Asked Questions
(And How-To)

By order of popularity:

1. I can not change any of the values on the Settings tab.
Use the yellow column next to it, which is conveniently labelled 'custom values'

2. It is not working.
Be more precise. What is not working? A specific tab? A specific cell? A specific combination of gear? Are macros enabled? Is your macro security low enough? People have reported that windows sometimes flags the file as being from another computer and restricts what it can do.
Make a screenshot of what happens or upload the file somewhere so I can look at it, but MOST of all read this thread. Entirely. Most of the common problems have been asked before and solved.

3. I get a Runtime Error
If it involves importing from the Armory the most common reason for the error is that the Armory is down, not responding or too slow. Check if you can access your Armory profile with your browser. Keep trying or try at a later time.

If it happens when clicking a cell with a drop-down menu, this very rarely happens and just correct the value in the cell and continue.

<more cases to be added>

4. How do I save/create/load Profiles?
On the Overview tab there is a block named "Profiles". The names in yellow can be changed to suit whatever you want. Then on the Gear tab there's a line called 'Profile' with a drop-down menu. You can select the newly created name here.
Then make whatever changes you want to the profile, hit the "Save Profile" button and now you have saved the current gear set, talent spec and settings under that name.
Conversely, select a name from the drop-down menu and hit "Load Profile" to load any previously saved information.
Buff profiles work in the same manner. The names can be edited on the Overview tab and load/saving/selecting on the Buffs tab.

5. Armory Import says item/enchant XXX is not supported.
First, try to add it manually. If the item/enchant is in the drop down list for the gear slot then it has most likely been misspelled. Report it by PM or in this thread. For ease of searching hit the 'Alphabetize' button on the Gear Planner tab.
If the item is not in the list then it is not in the spreadsheet. Usually there is a good reason for this:
a) The item is green quality
B) The item/enchant is not an obviously for hunters (tanking leather with expertise for example)
c) I forgot to add it
If you strongly feel it should be added, post in this thread and include your reasoning.

6. My Shot/Pet Rotation is not working.
First of all, the rotation isn't really a rotation. It is a priority queue. The top ability gets to be used with the highest priority. If it is on CD then the 2nd. If that is on CD the 3rd and so on. Some abilities (Steady Shot and Claw/Bite/Smack) do not have a cooldown that is longer than the global cooldown. Hence if you put them as #1 they will take priority over everything else.
A proper hunter rotation (for MM-spec) would look something like:
#1. Rapid Fire
#2. Chimera Shot
#3. Serpent Sting
#4. Steady Shot
A proper pet rotation (for a Cat) would look something like:
#1. Rabid
#2. Rake
#3. Claw
The most common mistake made is that people put Claw or Steady Shot as #1. In which case the other shots/abilities are NOT used.

7. I/my pet am/is spec XXX but the shot/pet rotation says shot/ability YYY is used but I/my pet don't/doesn't have that.
If you make changes to your or your pet's talent points you need to edit the shot/pet rotation yourself. The spreadsheet doesn't do this automagically for you.
Also, there is no restriction to what ability you can put in a rotation. I haven't put in a ton of foolproof checks to make sure that you don't put Readiness in the rotation if you don't have talent points in it. Check it yourself.

8. I believe talent/ability/item proc XXX is not modelled correctly.
Good! Now please post in this thread and explain why and most of all HOW it should be modelled. But before you do, make sure you really have something new and have enough evidence (logs and/or screenshots) to prove it. If you are correct I will be more than happy to correct the spreadsheet.

9. What is the Rotation Test tab?
The rotation test tab is an alternate way of seeing how your shot rotation is used. It uses the same priority queue that the Shot Rotation tab does, but prints out how the shots are used. It accounts for the global cooldown and avoids overlapping abilities (i.e. using Bestial Wrath too soon after the last one if you have Readiness).
I originally made this to verify whether the frequency calculations on the Shot Rotation were accurate enough. They seem to be within 1-2%, so there is usually little reason to use this tab. There's an option on the Settings tab to use the calculations from this page as basis for all calculations instead of the frequency logic from the Shot Rotation tab.

#3 KraxisSingular

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 09:43 AM

I guess it is time to thank you for continuing where Cheeky left off. I'm certain we will gain a lot of benefit from this. Perhaps less so now, but I can see this as getting to know the mechanics now for easier and better modeling once it goes live.

#4 Nakari

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 09:46 AM

It's good to see someone pick up the fantastic work Cheeky has done for us all, I'm sure youu#ll find more than enough people happy to help you... I'll start with providing some base stats:

Level 77 Orc Hunter:

5358 HP (4298 base HP)
5512 mana (4547 base mana)

74 Strength
169 Agility
124 Stamina
88 Intellect
96 Spirit

313 RAP
1% Crit

Abilities:
Steady Shot (all ranks) - 181 mana - ~4% base mana
Aimed Shot (> rank 7) - 500 mana - ~11% base mana
Arcane Shot (> rank 9) - 318 mana - ~7% base mana (rank 10 is currently bugged and only costs 7 mana)
Multi Shot (> rank 6) - 363 mana - ~8% base mana
Serpent Sting (> rank 10) - 409 mana - ~9% base mana

This matches with the data from Marksmanship - Hunter - Skills - World of Warcraft , so I guess you can safely take those as correct.

#5 Shandara

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 10:08 AM

I guess it is time to thank you for continuing where Cheeky left off. I'm certain we will gain a lot of benefit from this. Perhaps less so now, but I can see this as getting to know the mechanics now for easier and better modeling once it goes live.


With the unlinking of auto-shot our mechanics have been very much simplified. It also means there'll be a marked change in what stats are worth, especially haste.

I've added a button on the Talent page to set it quickly to a semi-cookie spec; although I don't really have a 'standard' for the MM or SV trees yet, so if there's any consensus yet to what a cookie-cutter MM or SV build is, please post it so I can add it.

This saves you from having to swap all talents manually every time, because the talent scraper doesn't work on the current Armory (for obvious reasons).

#6 Shandara

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 05:02 PM

Update (see first post).

Small fixes, mostly regression stuff. Things I thought I had done already but must not have saved and such.

#7 Chul

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 11:00 AM

Thanks for taking over the spreadsheet, I'lll look at it closely when I get time to see if I can give you any feedback.

However, one feature I would like to see is an estimate of raid DPS (i.e. include dps given to other raiders via our buffs), so we can compare across specs and buffs (party wide FI against raide wide TSA etc).

#8 Shandara

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 11:29 AM

Thanks for taking over the spreadsheet, I'lll look at it closely when I get time to see if I can give you any feedback.

However, one feature I would like to see is an estimate of raid DPS (i.e. include dps given to other raiders via our buffs), so we can compare across specs and buffs (party wide FI against raide wide TSA etc).


Well, that is certainly possible, but the discussion is open on what the 'raid dps' should be then.

I don't have enough knowledge of the other classes to say 'TSA adds X dps per rogue, X dps per warrior, etc...', but if someone _can_ give me definite numbers it would be easy to implement.

Edit: uploaded version 55 again because I had protected some cells that were needed for Gear Planner. Gear planner should work again if you redownload. Note that importing function doesn't work. I have no idea why though, it saves the data correctly, it just hangs on reading the file.

Edit#2: It doesn't hang on import, it's just very very slow. It reads about 2-3 lines per second and it has to read ~2400 lines from the exported file. If anyone knows a faster way of doing this, please PM me.

#9 Chul

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 12:32 PM

Well, that is certainly possible, but the discussion is open on what the 'raid dps' should be then.

I don't have enough knowledge of the other classes to say 'TSA adds X dps per rogue, X dps per warrior, etc...', but if someone _can_ give me definite numbers it would be easy to implement.


True, which is why you'd probably want to use a seperate sheet, and allow the user to customise based on some rough calculated estimates.

There was a thread a while back that looked at what you're after: Cross-Class Numbers Request - AP:DPS

Alternatively you can download existing DPS spreadsheets, and just add in say 100AP and see what happens.

Just started to use your spreadsheet and noticed that my stats were wrong. It looks like the base race stats are wrong. It works fine using Cheekys, but changing race didn't seem to alter the base stats in your spreadsheet so it looks like its still using the existing values.

#10 Shandara

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 01:06 PM

Just started to use your spreadsheet and noticed that my stats were wrong. It looks like the base race stats are wrong. It works fine using Cheekys, but changing race didn't seem to alter the base stats in your spreadsheet so it looks like its still using the existing values.


As I mention in my first post, I don't know the base stats of races/pets from level 71-80 yet, so I used existing values of level 70 for each level to fill it out.

In relation to my previous post, I've solved the importing/exporting problem. It should be in the next version

Edit#1: You're right in one sense. I used NE level 70 stats to fill out every race. Next version should have at least the correct level 70 stats.

#11 Shandara

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 06:51 PM

Small update. Version 55a

- Vastly improved importing and exporting, not compatible with any previous versions though and the output file isn't human-readable anymore either
- Correct level 70 race stats and fixed Troll/Dwarf racial weapon bonus
- Fixed Buff saving/loading
- Settings and results now displays the shot priority list used
- Fixed display of damage loss with Lock & Load, this was just a display issue, the actual dps loss was counted correctly
- Fixed Madness of the Betrayer armor penetration proc leading to an error
- Added Curse of Elements, Winter's Chill, Improved Scorch and Misery as target debuffs
- The 'Total Hunter DPS' on the calculation tab now shows the correct amount
- Explosive shot now scales with target debuffs that improve fire damage

Exporting/Importing is now done as a binary file, rather than plain text. Excel is apparently reading every single bloody line of text separately and it took my computer nearly 10 minutes to read all 2481 lines of text. Saving entire arrays at once in binary format is wonderfully fast.

Madness of the Betrayer should work again now (Thanks Sympa). I haven't really tested if every item works because I've only used my own gear to test stuff, so try it out and let me know if any other items are misbehaving.

I've added new target debuffs; whether it's feasible for them all to be up at the same time and 100% of the time is something I leave to others. Standard raid-buffs only have Misery and Curse of Elements enabled.

#12 Chul

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 02:01 AM

EDIT: Removed stuff about Cobra strikes.

Pet Hit Chance:

Pets gain the hit chance of their master too.

Rabid:

This will need to be confirmed by people in Beta, but it seems to me that an ability with a 30s cooldown that lasts 30s would mean it would drop off and then be reapplied, meaning the stacks would have to be added back? I would've though that only a hunter with some points in Longevity could truely make it a 100% uptime with the reduction in the cooldown.

Also, the uptime doesn't max out at 100% (if you add Longevity it goes to 146% uptime) so the extra AP from the ability is > 125%.

Pet Attack Power:
The extra attack power from Imp HM and Expose Weakness isn't multiplied by any ability/talent multipliers like Rapid or Call of the Wild. If you check the same thing for the hunter wrt EW, talented abilities affect it so I assume the same for the pet.

Buffs/Debuffs:

I'd look at Building Groups in WoTLK and add in the new buffs.

#13 Shandara

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 08:03 AM

EDIT: Removed stuff about Cobra strikes.

Pet Hit Chance:

Pets gain the hit chance of their master too.

Rabid:

This will need to be confirmed by people in Beta, but it seems to me that an ability with a 30s cooldown that lasts 30s would mean it would drop off and then be reapplied, meaning the stacks would have to be added back? I would've though that only a hunter with some points in Longevity could truely make it a 100% uptime with the reduction in the cooldown.

Also, the uptime doesn't max out at 100% (if you add Longevity it goes to 146% uptime) so the extra AP from the ability is > 125%.

Pet Attack Power:
The extra attack power from Imp HM and Expose Weakness isn't multiplied by any ability/talent multipliers like Rapid or Call of the Wild. If you check the same thing for the hunter wrt EW, talented abilities affect it so I assume the same for the pet.

Buffs/Debuffs:

I'd look at Building Groups in WoTLK and add in the new buffs.


Pet attack power. Good catch.

Pet hit. Do pet's gain their master's full +hit? Or a portion of it? Excluding talents (like Surefooted) I assume. I'll go with a full +hit transfer for the time being.

Rabid. This is a bit tricky.
How does it work? When your pet uses rabid it gains a buff which stacks? Does an increase in the stack reset the timer? With Longevity it would refresh before it runs out in any case which means a near-100% uptime of +25%. Without Longevity it would reset at the 30sec mark as you said. And would have to stack up again.
In that case it would spend roughly 10 secs building up to 5 stacks (at a stack point per 2 seconds) and then 20 secs at 5 stacks. Leading to about +20% AP instead of +25%.
I'll go with that logic for the next version.

Group buffs. I'll have a look at it. From the top off my head I remembered I hadn't looked at the new WF totem yet.

#14 KraxisSingular

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 09:38 AM

Pet attack power. Good catch.

Pet hit. Do pet's gain their master's full +hit? Or a portion of it? Excluding talents (like Surefooted) I assume. I'll go with a full +hit transfer for the time being.


At this time it isn't implemented, they have just stated the intention that they want to do it. That doesn't mean it will have to happen. But for the time being it is a good bet to hold.

#15 Shandara

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 09:48 AM

The next version will have a lot more debuffs/buffs added.

What would be a reasonable expectation for a available buffs in WotLK? So we can set down a semi-standard set of buffs, which makes it easier to compare results.

The usual Feral, Shaman, Hunter * X group

I was thinking the following:
  • Blessing of Kings
  • Greater Blessing of Might (Do many paladins take the improvement talent?)
  • Greater Blessing of Wisdom
  • True Shot Aura (I guess it depends if MM hunters become popular)
  • Leader of the Pack
  • Arcane Brilliance
  • Prayer of Fortitude (almost always talented)
  • Gift of the Wild (same)
  • Strength of Earth totem
  • Windfury totem
  • Unleashed Rage (for the pet if enhancement shaman)

The following buffs would really depend on how far spread out the raid is:
  • Battle Shout (for pet)
  • Abomination's Might
  • Blood Pact
  • Retribution Aura

Target debuffs is a bit trickier, since some are used by completely opposite specs:
  • Improved Hunter's Mark (from another hunter)
  • Expose Weakness (same)
  • Heart of the Crusader (applied with all judgements now)
  • Curse of Elements and/or Curse of Recklessness
  • Winter's Chill and/or Improved Scorch
  • Misery
  • Sunder Armor
  • Blood Frenzy
  • Earth and Moon
  • Faerie Fire


#16 Shandara

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 10:31 AM

Updated first post with version 56.

- Rabid changed to drop off at 30sec mark. With Longevity the stack remains, thus leading to higher uptime.
- Pet Attack power modifiers on the target (Expose Weakness, IHM) now scale with Rabid and Call of the Wild.
- Pets gain full +hit from their masters now (this is only +hit from gear, not talents)
- Added Draenei heroic presence as a buff
- Added DK Abomination's Might to hunter/pet buffs, select uptime% as a modifier
- Cleared up the RAP and PAP calculations by first adding all the numerical bonuses and then lastly all the multiplicative ones. Please check it if it's correct
- Added new Windfury Totem. Affects autoshot speed and pet melee attack speed
- Strenght of Earth changed to add both strength and agility, grace of air totem removed as buff
- Added Earth and Moon debuff; adds both nature and arcane damage, select stacks as modifier
- Fixed Savage Rend, it gave +30% damage instead of +10% over 30 seconds
- Added Sanctified Retribution and Swift Retribution buffs
- Lock and Load now replaces 2 shots when it procs, rather than 3, because the CD of Arc/Explosive Shot won't have reset after the 3rd free shot
- Added Blood Frenzy debuff


#17 Prinsesa

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 10:49 AM

# Greater Blessing of Might (Do many paladins take the improvement talent?)


Please do note that 5/5 Improved BoM is current +50% AP on the Beta, which means the level 70 version goes from 255 AP base to 382.5 AP talented, while the level 80 version goes from 350 AP to 525 AP.

I think it's safe to assume that yes, most Paladins can and will want to take the Improved talent when Wrath hits.
"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

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#18 Chul

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 10:55 AM

I think they way boss health is used needs to be changed:

Firstly, I'd remove the selection of boss health.

Then average out Feeding Frenzy over the entire fight (i.e. 40% * percent of time spent under 20% for 2/2 FF) rather than having it either as +40% or +0% damage.

To handle Kill Shot, you should probably split the shot rotation into two: One for 100%-20%, and the other for 20%-0% then average the damage done based on the percentage of time spent under 20% similar to FF.

This should allow a much better representative average DPS over a boss fight.

EDIT: Just noticed Monstrous Bite calculations use 4% dmg per stack, when it is 3% dmg per stack.

#19 Shandara

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 11:27 AM

I think they way boss health is used needs to be changed:

Firstly, I'd remove the selection of boss health.

Then average out Feeding Frenzy over the entire fight (i.e. 40% * percent of time spent under 20% for 2/2 FF) rather than having it either as +40% or +0% damage.

To handle Kill Shot, you should probably split the shot rotation into two: One for 100%-20%, and the other for 20%-0% then average the damage done based on the percentage of time spent under 20% similar to FF.

This should allow a much better representative average DPS over a boss fight.

EDIT: Just noticed Monstrous Bite calculations use 4% dmg per stack, when it is 3% dmg per stack.


You can use the 'Calculate Average DPS' button on the shot rotation tab to calculate the dps for either 100%-30%, 30%-20% and 20%-0. So you get figures for each of the possible phases of a boss fight. It adjusts the talent effects automatically.

Small update to Version 56:
- Added new WotLK ranks of Blessing of Might + updated imp. Blessing of Might talent bonus
- Added new WotLK ranks of Blessing of Wisdom
- Added new WotLK ranks of Strength of Earth and talent modifiers
- Added new WotLK ranks of Gift of the Wild and talent changes
- Added new WotLK ranks of Prayer of Fortitude
- Added new WotLK rank of Blood Pact
- Changed Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire to their level 80 values


#20 Shandara

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 11:29 AM

To handle Kill Shot, you should probably split the shot rotation into two: One for 100%-20%, and the other for 20%-0% then average the damage done based on the percentage of time spent under 20% similar to FF.


Mind you, the calculation won't use Kill Shot if it's not in your rotation.

EDIT:

Just noticed Monstrous Bite calculations use 4% dmg per stack, when it is 3% dmg per stack.

Thanks for the catching that.




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