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WotLK DPS spreadsheet


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#21 Lactose

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 11:42 AM

- Some talented pet abilities seem to be active be considered active even when no talent points are invested in the talent. Noticed Call of the Wild being active (giving 1% bonus to "Total invisible bonuses, this value seemed to be rounded up).
Call of the Wild seems to be active regardless if pet has spent talent points there, or even if the pet does not belong to the "Ferocity" familiy.


- Multiplicative bonuses do not apply to target debuffs. I've tested this with Hunter's Mark and Master Marksman - most likely this is true for all debuffs and all multiplicative bonuses.


EDIT:
- The spreadsheet is not using the correct formula for Steady Shot, it does not seem to be including Ammo DPS.
The correct formula is:
SteadyShotDamage = RAP*0.2 + AmmoDPS*2.8 + (WeaponDamage/WeaponSpeed)*2.8 + SteadyShotBonusDamage + [Dazed: DazedBonusDamage]
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#22 Shandara

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 11:53 AM

- Some talented pet abilities seem to be active be considered active even when no talent points are invested in the talent. Noticed Call of the Wild being active (giving 1% bonus to "Total invisible bonuses, this value seemed to be rounded up).
Call of the Wild seems to be active regardless if pet has spent talent points there, or even if the pet does not belong to the "Ferocity" familiy.


- Multiplicative bonuses do not apply to target debuffs. I've tested this with Hunter's Mark and Master Marksman - most likely this is true for all debuffs and all multiplicative bonuses.


Thanks,

Problem was that Call of the Wild only checked if it was in the pet's rotation, not whether you actually had the talent. Unfortunately fiddling with talents/pet family doesn't automatically update your pet's rotation yet (i.e. disabling skills that the pet doesn't have).

As for Multiplicative bonuses not applying to target debuffs, that's a new one to me. I'll take it along for the next version.

EDIT:
Thanks for the steady shot formula catch. I hadn't touched that part yet. Steady shot was also not counting the base weapon dps correctly. This will be fixed as well.

#23 Ravenfire

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 05:08 PM

Your math on Wild Quiver is off. It is 1/2/3 talent points for a 4/7/10% chance to proc in beta but you have it as 4/8/12% chance to proc in your sheet.

Edit: Chimera Shot does 40% of the TOTAL damage of Serpent Sting. Currently on Beta I see these numbers for non critting Chimera's:
NOTE: Current beta still has Chimera at 150% weapon damage
~1100 for non serpent stung mobs (after armor)
~2100 for rank 10 serpent stung mobs (after armor)

Math using 1.45% damage modifier for the currently bugged Serpent sting. Since a % increase to damage is the same when applied before or after armor we can estimate that Chimera's base damage as:
1100 * 1.45 = 1595 (after armor)

Solo play with my gear as MM spec, I have just over 3000 RAP self buffed. (Imp stings, RWS and SS bug applied)
Serpent sting rank 10 = (3000*0.1+660)*1.3*1.05*1.45 = 1900 (Currently Marked for Death only reads SHOTS as getting 10% bonus damage, so i am leaving it out untill i can prove that it effects both shots and stings)

based on your equation i should calculate serpent stings contribution to Chimera as:
1900 / 5 * 0.4 = 152 (pre armor)
152 * 0.7 = 106 (after armor)
thus Chimera + serpent = 1595 + 106 = 1700ish which doen't match up very well with what i am seeing in the Beta.

Using 40% of the total damage of Serpent sting yeilds the following:
1900 * 0.4 = 760 (pre armor)
760 * 0.7 = 532 (after armor)
Chimera + serpent = 1595 + 532 = 2127
this calculation yeilds results that are much closer to what I am actually seeing in Beta.

Also I don't think you are calculating Chimera's damage correctly with regards to how you apply the 125% weapon damage effect. The way i read your calculations is that you are taking Base weapon damage * 1.25 = chimera's base damage without serpent sting. But looking at your Base Weapon Damage equation you use a critical damage modifier of 133.9%. This should be the same 147.29% as Aimed, Kill, and Steady shots based on Marked for Death's 10% critical damage bonus to Aimed, Kill, Steady, AND CHIMERA shots. You some how need to include that 10% bonus damage for crits into your equation(s).

#24 Shandara

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 06:18 PM

Thanks for the report, I was unsure how Chimera worked since the wording on the tooltip isn't quite clear. The Wild Quiver is my mistake, I'm guessing the talent is actually 3,33%/6,67%/10% but they round it as usual. The Chimera base damage is also a thing I'll fix in the next version.

Edit:
With Chimera Shot refreshing Serpent Sting, this does boost it's DPS quite a bit. Chimera Shot is by far the most powerful shot.

Edit#2:
I also realized I'm not using the mana reduction on Improved Steady Shot yet.

Edit#3: Small update; version 56b
- Talents that modify AP by % don't affect debuffs on targets anymore (Expose Weakness, Hunter's Mark)
- Fixed Steady Shot damage formula. Now counts Ammo correctly and uses the base weapon DPS normalized as well
- Cunning pets now have a 105% damage mod instead of 100% (source Mania's Arcana)
- Talented pet skills now automatically are not used in the pet rotation if you don't have the talent points in them. They still remain in the rotation list though. You have to manually remove/replace them
- Chimera Shot now properly gets 10% extra crit bonus damage from Marked for Death and deals 40% of Serpent's Stings TOTAL damage, not just 40% of a tick
- Improved Steady Shot now reduces Arcane/Aimed/Chimera Shot mana costs
- Wild quiver now does 4/7/10% chance to proc instead of 4/8/12%


#25 Ravenfire

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 07:55 PM

I found another error in your sheet. On the Calculations tab for Steady shot mana cost you reference 'Shot Rotation'!E13 which appears to be the mana cost of Kill Shot (428) not steady shot (117). It should reference 'Shot Rotation'!E12. This would explain why I was startled by the very low dpm ratio steady shot has according to your sheet.

Edit: Also noticed that it doesn't appear that you are applying armor mitigation to Chimera shot which does physical damage and is thus reduced by armor.
P.S. Nice work so far on the sheet. Keep up the good work. =)

#26 Shandara

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 08:34 PM

I found another error in your sheet. On the Calculations tab for Steady shot mana cost you reference 'Shot Rotation'!E13 which appears to be the mana cost of Kill Shot (428) not steady shot (117). It should reference 'Shot Rotation'!E12. This would explain why I was startled by the very low dpm ratio steady shot has according to your sheet.

Edit: Also noticed that it doesn't appear that you are applying armor mitigation to Chimera shot which does physical damage and is thus reduced by armor.
P.S. Nice work so far on the sheet. Keep up the good work. =)


Cheers, this would explain why Chimera seemed so awesome :)

#27 Cheeky

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 09:56 PM

I found another error in your sheet. On the Calculations tab for Steady shot mana cost you reference 'Shot Rotation'!E13 which appears to be the mana cost of Kill Shot (428) not steady shot (117). It should reference 'Shot Rotation'!E12. This would explain why I was startled by the very low dpm ratio steady shot has according to your sheet.

P.S. Nice work so far on the sheet. Keep up the good work. =)


I found the best way to handle this kind of error was to name as many cells as possible. This way it becomes quickly visible when you are referencing the wrong ones. And count me among those happy you're going through all this effort! :)
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#28 Kindinos

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 10:23 PM

I was thinking of starting work on a Web-based spreadsheet type app (PHP and MySQL) for WotLK. Unfortunately, I don't have a beta key, and have no idea how to start, given that I haven't looked into the formulas and models used to calculate DPS.

As a web developer, I would be willing to work with you to translate the excel formulas and functions into a PHP program that uses a MySQL database to store data on items, gems, enchants, etc. Also, it would be possible to save a hunter's configuration and "send" it to another person for looking at, comparing, etc. Could also make a sort of leaderboard to see who has the highest theoretical DPS. :)

#29 brigwyn

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 12:05 AM

Since Wertez and Indora took over with Cheeky's blessing, much of this may have already been incorporated.

Would it be possible we work together instead of having multiple flavors out there? Not saying it has to be held at The Hunting Lodge, here's fine, I just hate for the hunter community to get in an uproar over what is the "Official" Hunter DPS Spreadsheet.

Feel free to look at what we've been doing since Cheeky and Lactose retired.

(Hunter DPS Spreadsheet Forum)
(Hunter DPS Spreadsheet Download)


Like I said duplicate efforts and confusion might be a problem. But either way. Good luck!! :)

I was thinking of starting work on a Web-based spreadsheet type app (PHP and MySQL) for WotLK. Unfortunately, I don't have a beta key, and have no idea how to start, given that I haven't looked into the formulas and models used to calculate DPS.

As a web developer, I would be willing to work with you to translate the excel formulas and functions into a PHP program that uses a MySQL database to store data on items, gems, enchants, etc. Also, it would be possible to save a hunter's configuration and "send" it to another person for looking at, comparing, etc. Could also make a sort of leaderboard to see who has the highest theoretical DPS. :)


Kindinos.. did you receive your account info for hosting it at the Lodge?

#30 Chul

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 12:24 AM

You can use the 'Calculate Average DPS' button on the shot rotation tab to calculate the dps for either 100%-30%, 30%-20% and 20%-0. So you get figures for each of the possible phases of a boss fight. It adjusts the talent effects automatically.


I definately think Feeding Frenzy needs to be averaged over the fight rather than a snapshot in time. It's currently either a +40% or +0% dmg increase depending on what I select as the boss health.

Hopefully I can explain what I mean about Kill Shot a little better :)

Kill Shot doesn't beat most other shots, so it will have a low priority. In fact, it may never be cast at all since all the GCDs will be used by higher priority shots.

However, once the boss is < 20% health, Kill Shot is generally more damage and therefore it should be moved up higher in priority. How high the priority depends on talents and buffs. Currently the spreadsheet doesn't allow that. So what I was suggesting is to split the shot rotation in two (one for >20%, one for <20%) so we can change our rotation at that point and work out a new optimal shot rotation. The total damage would be averaged over the time spent in each % section.

#31 Kindinos

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 01:21 AM

Kindinos.. did you receive your account info for hosting it at the Lodge?


Yes, I have the information. I will be uploading what I currently have, which is basically, just some of the page layout. Im trying to keep the same Tab style interface, that Cheeky used in his, as to avoid as much of the "newness" as possible.

Furthermore, we will need to coordinate on a single forum (either here or the Lodge), to prevent confusion.

As for the development/maintenance, one of the big advantages to using a PHP-MySQL system is that we (I) can create a simple, easy to use interface that allows anyone (with admin access) to add/modify items, gems, etc. As for changing core mechanics, formulas and models, Im almost certain there's someone else out there in the hunter theorycrafting community who would know php/mysql.

#32 brigwyn

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 04:41 AM

Furthermore, we will need to coordinate on a single forum (either here or the Lodge), to prevent confusion.

As for the development/maintenance, one of the big advantages to using a PHP-MySQL system is that we (I) can create a simple, easy to use interface that allows anyone (with admin access) to add/modify items, gems, etc. As for changing core mechanics, formulas and models, Im almost certain there's someone else out there in the hunter theorycrafting community who would know php/mysql.



That's good. Just making sure since I haven't seen you on since then.

As for the site to develop on? My personal preference would be to keep it at the Lodge since that's where Wertez and Indora are working on the Excel version of the spreadsheet. Also you could use the Lodge's Vent, IrC and Developer forum. But it's up to you guys. (besides, I keep getting myself in trouble here so not sure how much longer I'll have posting priviledges.

As for the php/mysql expertise. I'm sure you can find it here or there. I can do some things myself and I know others on the site and in the nether also can code.

But Like I said before. Let's get to an agreement and work together on this. I agree with you, it doesn't make sense to add to the confusion out there. Let me know. :)

#33 Kindinos

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 06:10 AM

OK, so I've got the basic mockup done. It basically has the tabs laid out, and a few of the tabs have some form elements (text and check boxes) which don't do anything for the moment. Before we go ahead and start cranking out the math for it, I think we should talk a little bit about the UI.

The main thing we need to preserve (in my opinion) is the tabbed layout, which everyone is used to from Cheeky's. Secondly, with all the different options, it will have to be intuitive. Thus, I am thinking about making some sort of system of popups that lets users pick items, fill them with gems, enchants, etc. Coming as close to the ingame interface as possible.

The URL is

HuntarDPS :: Welcome!

let me know what you all think about it, ways to streamline it, etc. If Shandara has no objections, we ought to form a "team" to collaborate on it. I think a little extra work right now, could save us a lot of work in the future.

Also, the title is not a typo. In the mockup, i couldn't figure out a title, so I played around with the words a bit, and came up with "HuntarDPS" Let me know if you think that title is too silly or "leetspeek-ish"

Edit: The login and registration forms on the first page are dead forms. Just click "login" and it will redirect you to the main part of the site.

#34 Shandara

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 07:38 AM

Edit: merged with next post, please delete.

#35 Shandara

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 08:23 AM

@Kindinos:
I wouldn't mind turning the sheet into an online application. The math behind it is mostly straightforward and not really computationally heavy. The only downside to an online application is.. when it's down it's down.

@Brigwyn:
I had in fact seen your post that Wertez was picking it up, but at the time I didn't see any substantial work done on the sheet, apart from adding some obsolete gear and doing small fixes. Since the sheet is locked (even for viewing) I can't see what sort of WotLK has been done.
I'm not really interested in who has St. Cheeky's and Don Lactose's blessing, but welcome any and all help. Like Cheeky I mostly do this as a tool for myself, rather than specifically for the grand public :)

I definately think Feeding Frenzy needs to be averaged over the fight rather than a snapshot in time. It's currently either a +40% or +0% dmg increase depending on what I select as the boss health.

Hopefully I can explain what I mean about Kill Shot a little better :)

Kill Shot doesn't beat most other shots, so it will have a low priority. In fact, it may never be cast at all since all the GCDs will be used by higher priority shots.

However, once the boss is < 20% health, Kill Shot is generally more damage and therefore it should be moved up higher in priority. How high the priority depends on talents and buffs. Currently the spreadsheet doesn't allow that. So what I was suggesting is to split the shot rotation in two (one for >20%, one for <20%) so we can change our rotation at that point and work out a new optimal shot rotation. The total damage would be averaged over the time spent in each % section.


My point was that it's already possible to see with 1 button push what your dps is in the different Boss%. You can set the fight length yourself and the different times spent in the phases and then it'll calculate the dps for each.

I prefer this way to hardcoding the different phase lengths into the sheet and averaging out the effects of Feeding Frenzy and Kill Shot, the same way I haven't implemented Heroism/Bloodlust, since those are so fight-specific.

The Shot rotation tab uses the settings 'Boss HP%' and 'Use Kill Shot' to determine when to use Kill Shot already. To mimic real-world behavior set Use Kill Shot to Sub-20%, put it in your rotation and hit the 'Calculate Average DPS' button.

On that vein, maybe I should change the name of the 'Shot Rotation' tab since what the spreadsheet does is NOT modelling a shot rotation. It merely computes the frequency of use of your shots, given the priority you have set.

If you set it to:

Explosive Shot
Kill Shot
Multi-Shot
Arcane Shot
Steady Shot

With 'Use Kill Shot' set at 'Sub-20%' then you'll notice that for 'Boss HP%' at '35%' and '25%' Kill shot has a frequency of 0, which means it's not used at all, despite being in the rotation. Once you set the % to '15%' it'll be used and subsequently leave no room for Steady Shots and in fact eat up a few of your Arcane Shots as well.

The 'Calculate Average DPS' button checks your actual dps at 15/25/35% HP and the sheet automatically adjusts whether kill shot is used or not. Same for pet talents like Feeding Frenzy. It then averages out those 3 dps values based on the fight length/phase length you specified.

I standard set it to a 10 minute fight, 7mins spent going from 100%-30%, 1min from 30%-20%, 2mins from 20%-0%. Not quite realistic since most fights are over _faster_ once you hit sub-20% thanks to Bloodlust/Executes/Mages/etc..

It doesn't actually use the fight length, just the relative % of time spent at each phase. To reiterate, you don't need to fiddle with the Boss HP% setting if you just want to see your average dps over the total fight, just hit the button.

#36 brigwyn

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 01:07 PM

Kindinos -
Since you've made this over at the lodge I'm gonna close this discussion and bring it over to those forums. No need to have multiple conversations going on.

- Shandara
I've answered your post on the other forum. But as you said, there's not worried about which is "blessed" or not. What I"m more concerned with is that we work together in creating the best tool posible for the hunter class.

I appreciate your candor and effort thus far!

#37 Shandara

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 05:33 PM

Small update again:
- Misery now also increases arcane and nature damage by 5%
- Using both Serpent and Scorpid in the same rotation will now mean the lower priority shot will not be used.
- Chimera Shot is now affected by the target's armor
- Steady shot calculations now use the correct mana cost for DPM (Damage per Mana)
- Explosive shot now has a base 150% crit damage instead of 200%, it also uses the correct crit rate to determine the damage bonus for crits
- Arcane Shot now uses the correct talent to determine its cooldown
- Most shots now display their DPM
- Chimera Shot now refreshes Serpent Sting's duration properly and removes its mana expenditure
- Removed the haste cap calculation and the Gear planner now completely values haste

Recalculating attributes should be much faster now.

With the un-linking of auto-shot there's (practically) no haste cap any more I assume. Haste also has deprecated in value because it basically only affects autoshot after a certain amount (once you get Steady Shot below the GCD).

Is there a maximum speed at which auto-shot can fire? I believe there was a minimum, but can't remember the source of that thought.

#38 Ravenfire

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 05:44 PM

Brigwyn,

Is there a WotLK spread sheet available for download at The Hunting Lodge? I've been looking and looking and while I've seen many a post regarding a WotLK spread sheet I haven't seen a single link for a download for it.

Edit: I believe that TBC version of the sheet has AS capped at 0.5 seconds with the reasoning being that haste doesn't effect the cast time of Auto Shot (whether true or not is debatable and I could do an experiment to test it), but with the unlinking of AS and it now being truely "instant" I'd say it no longer has any max cap.

#39 Indora

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 06:35 PM

- Arcane Shot now uses the correct talent to determine its cooldown

I see a weakness of the priority system here.
A simple example with Arcane Shot > Steady Shot priority:

- Shot Rotation
0.0 arcane (0,16 frequency)
1.5 steady (0,5 frequncy)
3.0 steady
4.5 steady
6.0 arcane

- Priority system
25% arcane shot (0,16 frequency)
75% Steady Shot (0,5 frequency)

Each results the same frequencys.
But with 5/5 Improved Arcane Shot:

- Shot Rotation
0.0 arcane (0.2 frequency)
1.5 steady (0.4 frequency)
3.0 steady
4.5-5.0 wasted time
5.0 arcane

A priority system ignores the wasted time:
30% arcane shot (0.2 frequency)
70% (0.466 frequency)

Maybe using rotations for wotlk, too, is a good idea.



Another thing:
Assuming the gcd is 1.5 seconds doesn't represent the (virtual) reality.
Even when spamming a button, it takes you 50-150ms (on average) to click it.
Let's say you spam your button 10 times per seconds (fast!):
Your average gcd will be 1.55 seconds (1.5 + 1 / 10 / 2).
The 100ms are halfed, because sometimes you click just after the gcd ends, but sometimes you'll click the whole 100ms later - on average it's 50ms per gcd.

I suggest adding a cell named 'Clicks per Second'

#40 brigwyn

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 08:38 PM

Brigwyn,

Is there a WotLK spread sheet available for download at The Hunting Lodge? I've been looking and looking and while I've seen many a post regarding a WotLK spread sheet I haven't seen a single link for a download for it.

Edit: I believe that TBC version of the sheet has AS capped at 0.5 seconds with the reasoning being that haste doesn't effect the cast time of Auto Shot (whether true or not is debatable and I could do an experiment to test it), but with the unlinking of AS and it now being truely "instant" I'd say it no longer has any max cap.


I know that the one at the Lodge has a Haste cell to help change the AS cap (I believe anyways.. Indora or Wertez are better suited to answer the details. But I believe The Hunter DPS Sheet that's at the Lodge has the WoTLK info in it.

As Wertez has pointed out, most of the actual "development" effort is in preparing for the expansion. And as for the existing BC items, it's mostly bug fixes or missing gear, etc... I've posted the links to the discussion forum and download sites before and am afraid of receiving the wrath of the mods if I do so again. :P But if you do need more info feel free to drop me a line at the lodge or by email: brigwyn@brigwyn.com.




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