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RaidComp – online raid calculator


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#1 Nopher

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 06:43 PM

The url: MMO-Champion RaidComp - thank you Bibi for hosting! For example here you have Last Resort's regular setups for M'uru and KJ.

Short description
Raid composition is an important aspect of WoW PvE. RaidComp (from now on denoted as RC) aims to be to raid compositions what talent calculators are to talent specs; allowing everyone to play around with and share different raid compositions online. RC also helps raid leaders by giving an overview of the different buff and debuff categories. It won't do all the thinking for you, raid optimization is complex, however it should be able to do most of the grunt work and highlight some of the categories and abilities you need to look closer at.

How it works
RC marks categories and abilities in three different ways:

Inactive - not present in the raid.
Maybe - probably present but there might be a problem.
Active - present in the raid and reasonably sure it will always be active.

RC assumes that players are able to coordinate on their own within their class but not between classes, that's where you, the raid leader, come into play. If there's any doubt that an ability, even though it can be provided by someone in the raid, might not be active all the time it's marked as "maybe". This is key for understanding how RC works.

An example: let's say you start with an empty raid and add a Shaman. You need at least two to ensure that both Windfury Totem and Wrath of Air Totem are active all the time and thus both spells (and their corresponding categories) are marked "maybe". You then add a frost Death Knight that provides Improved Icy Talons. Since Improved Icy Talons and Windfury Totem are in the same category and Improved Icy Talons is always active that category is now marked "active", the Spell Haste category that Wrath of Air Totem belongs to remains as "maybe". You check out the "maybe" category and come to the conclusion that the best move is to tell the Shaman to drop Wrath of Air Totem since the frost Death Knight got the other category covered.

The above example illustrates how RC is meant to be used. You can trust the "active" mark but as soon as you see a category or a spell get marked "maybe" it means there's something you need to look into.

There's a lot more to running an optimized raid than just making sure you cover every category; some abilities in the same category might be better than others, some can be improved by talents while others are just a pain in the ass to spec into. RC tries to cover some of these factors by adding short but informative tags next to abilities.

RC uses the following tags:
  • [e] - the ability is from an exotic pet.
  • [i] - the ability can be improved through talents.
  • [p] - the ability is from a pet.
  • [w] - the ability is significantly weaker than the other abilities in the category.

RC was created with the following assumptions/principles:
  • Everybody has invested at least 51 points in their main tree. The other 20 points can be spent in any tree. Yes that means that the tool is aimed at level 80 raids.
  • Players are able to coordinate buff and debuff usage within their own class but not with other classes.
  • Some abilities, although available in one way or another to a class, might be a pain in the ass to supply to the raid.
  • It’s better to give a false "maybe" than a false "active".
  • If the tool becomes too good at figuring out how to manage buffs and debuffs it will end up hiding important decisions and choices from the user.

Help and feedback

RC can never be as accurate as ingame addons (*) like InTheBuff: WotLK raid buff checklist, the goal is to make it a compliment that's reasonably useful for the novice and experienced raid leader alike. This is where I'd love to get the community's help and feedback.

Stuff I need help with:
  • Tags - to be used in moderation but I'm sure there’s more out there.
  • Abilities – I haven't looked into changes made during the last couple of big beta patches.
  • Bad assumptions – perhaps it's too much to assume that every Paladin is specced into BoK or that every feral Druid has IW (potentially mark as a "maybe" like Hunter pet abilities are now).
  • Browser performance and layout – I won't be supporting IE6 (people should really upgrade) but for example Safari on a Mac remains untested. RC uses a lot of JavaScript and performance differs a lot between browsers. If things are overall bad I can add options to disable the automatic generation of the buff and debuff windows for example.
  • Everything else! Have I taken a bad approach to buffs and debuffs? Is something really annoying? I appreciate all feedback I can get.

* If Blizzard implements an easy way to swap between two specs and puts the info on the armory it might be worth the trouble of offering an "import guild from armory" option which would make RC 100% accurate. Right now the chance of catching people in PvP specs or whatnot makes the data from the armory way too inaccurate in my opinion. If you disagree please say so and I might make it happen.

Thank you for your time.

#2 Copernicus

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 09:41 PM

A few unique raid buffs that I think are missed.

Amplify Magic - A powerful ability with no replacement in sight. Although on some fights it might not be ideal, on any fight where it is useful the raid group will want it across the raid. Also very strong on tanks.

Heroism/Bloodlust - Only one shaman needs to provide this for the raid group anymore. Still one of the more powerful raid buffs around.

Judgment of Wisdom - Any paladin can use this ability, and it's a key part of mana regeneration for ranged classes right now. It's also bugged at the moment to being almost useless. :(

---

It is a very useful tool. Mostly to see how easy it is to form a raid group with all the buff. Although Blizzard is relying on a few classes or specs (Balance Druid is a big one) to provide a huge chunk of buffs.

#3 Duilliath

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 10:04 PM

From what I can tell, IW should be a definite maybe. Pure tank specs will pick it up, but partial hybrids might not be able to find the points. Similarly, not many Ferals will pick up the improved versions of Demoralising Roar/Shout if they can at all avoid it and Improved MotW will likely be skipped as well.
I'm not sure if it's your intention to only show if that particular ability can be buffed through talents, or if that spec will (be able to) buff it through talents.

It looks very intuitive so far. Nice job.
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#4 Cuer

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 10:15 PM

This is certainly a useful tool; great work on it!

To go along with the points made so far, I'd offer two suggestions, if they aren't too hard to fit into the UI:

1) Put in links to the talents that can improve the power of a buff/debuff; perhaps by clicking on the [i] next to a buff/debuff, that would display the list of talents, via WoWhead, that can be chosen to improve it.

2) Add a reverse display, so that a mouse-over on any class currently in the raid will list which buffs/debuffs that particular character is expected to provide.

Both of those would help raid leaders become more comfortable with the new raid setup, and what talents/buffs/debuffs a particular class should be providing in a raid.

#5 Xelopheris

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 10:51 PM

Few things...
- You assume that every death knight is a tank. This is not the case. Don't know how you'd actually be able to differentiate though, unless you create 6 different roles.
- Ret pallies will usually have kings with their raid spec. Prot is almost definitely no (too much bloat to get stuff in their own tree), and holy is up for grabs depending on sub-spec.
- When hovering over the buffs/debuffs, it displays the buffs, but it doesn't show what spec, if necessary, provides them.
- Ranged Attack Power can be safely removed. It's hunter only and really only benefits hunters. If that somehow changes in the future, then it deserves a spot.
- Spell Critical chance - Should be a maybe for arcane mages, they sometimes go enough into fire that they get improved scorch.

#6 Oscarvil

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Posted 07 October 2008 - 11:09 PM

2) Add a reverse display, so that a mouse-over on any class currently in the raid will list which buffs/debuffs that particular character is expected to provide.


And the converse of this would be handy too, highlight the buff and the characters which provide said buff should be highlighted on the raid list, perhaps colour coded to indicate conditional buffs. So you can see who you can drop from the raid for a higher dps class ;)

Very very nice app by the way, thanks!

#7 Kemortia

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 12:39 AM

- You assume that every death knight is a tank.


Is a fair assumption I'd say, because every DK (Even without tanking talents) is supposedly in theory supposed to be capable of OTing during bosses and whatnot.
Eek, Shaman

#8 Davidson

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 12:55 AM

Is a fair assumption I'd say, because every DK (Even without tanking talents) is supposedly in theory supposed to be capable of OTing during bosses and whatnot.


Every warrior/paladin/druid can do that too, and yet they aren't all listed as tanks.

#9 Nopher

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 12:56 AM

Changes made:

- Added Replenishment and Bloodlust count.
- Made the improvable tags tooltip links to the talent that improves the ability.
- Added Judgement of Wisdom under the category Mana Restore.
- Added Amplify Magic under the category Spell Sensitivity. (Yes yes horrible name, help me!)
- Added Dampen Magic under the category Spell Insensitivity. (Even worse... I bet you wanted these added just so mages look useful.)
- Removed the category Ranged Attack Power and Hunter's Mark.
- Made Infected Wounds a "maybe" ability for feral Druids.
- Blessing of Kings is no longer provided by a protection Paladin and is also marked as improvable.
- Arcane Mages now "maybe" provides Improved Scorch.


Changes made as suggested in the thread. I'll look into tooltips on what abilities a spec can bring to the raid, but I think it's better to only display this for the list on the left and not in the middle area. Some form of highlighting may also make sense when you hover over specs for categories (and wise-versa), I'd like to make sure that there's not too much going on though. Maybe I’ll add some simple checkboxes for enabling the feature.


I'm not sure if it's your intention to only show if that particular ability can be buffed through talents, or if that spec will (be able to) buff it through talents.

Currently it's if that particular ability can be improved.

- You assume that every death knight is a tank. This is not the case. Don't know how you'd actually be able to differentiate though, unless you create 6 different roles.

I placed both feral Druids and DKs in the tanking category. It didn’t seem like it would make a lot of sense to add additional draggables just for some semantics.

#10 Ultramax

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 04:09 AM

No, so few bosses are can be disarmed. You could include disarm itself as a general category and let rogues, warriors, and survival hunters do it.

#11 Guest_allythepally_*

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 04:35 AM

Awesome tool! Some changes:
- Holy pallys won't be providing Imp. Devo Aura, but may provide Heart of the Crusader.
- You missed listing Blessing of Wisdom [i]
- Demonic Pact comes from a pet

#12 Knaughy

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 04:42 AM

Few things...
- Ret pallies will usually have kings with their raid spec. Prot is almost definitely no (too much bloat to get stuff in their own tree), and holy is up for grabs depending on sub-spec.


I'd disagree here re Kings. Viewpoint is that of a Sunwell Tankadin with PvE only focus.

• Every PvE Ret pally should have Kings. No excuse not to take it other than "PvP-only" talents. Go play arena then, nubcakes.

• There's almost no excuse not to have it as prot. It's almost impossible to come up with a sensible spec that has less than 2-3 points in Kings, at which point you may as well get all 5 points. You miss out on very marginal talents like "Imp HoJ".

• Holy can get Kings, but it's always a sacrifice. Best case they lose 3% spell crit (and crit is v. important to holy).

So for the RC tool, my suggestion would be:
• Ret has kings
• Prot has Kings
• Holy doesn't.

All that said... if you only have one paladin in-raid, he's about to hearth and respec into kings if he doesn't have it.

#13 uliko

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 04:48 AM

After playing around with it for some time I came up with a 10-man setup that has every buff/debuff available. The only not so realistic part about it being the presence of imp. devotion aura. Also the damage (%) category is not maxed out since the retribution version is only 2% vs. beast masterys 3%.

Edit: Damn, should read the BB before I post.

#14 Nakari

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 04:54 AM

Well, if things stay as they are Marksman Hunters provide a better %AP buff than Shamans and Deathknights, because of Glyph of Trueshot Aura which boosts Trueshot Aura to +12% AP instead of 10%.

#15 pope master

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 05:46 AM

• There's almost no excuse not to have it as prot. It's almost impossible to come up with a sensible spec that has less than 2-3 points in Kings, at which point you may as well get all 5 points. You miss out on very marginal talents like "Imp HoJ".


Its very possible to come up with a very appealing spec that doesn't take Kings. There are some very nice talents that you can take in the other trees, notably Seals of the Pure, Pursuit of Justice, Heart of the Crusader, Imp Blessing of Might and so forth. I don't think its at all that clearcut about which Paladin will be forced (yes, forced!) into taking BoK.

#16 BFG

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 05:55 AM

• Ret has kings
• Prot has Kings
• Holy doesn't.

If your raid has Prot + X Paladin, then Prot buffs Sanctuary and X buffs Kings - Holy or not. This means Prot can spend 5 points on something he will actually use, if he has another reliable Paladin in his guild.
No, this is not a whine post. It's legal to be a pessimist.

#17 Grital

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 05:57 AM

I'd disagree here re Kings. Viewpoint is that of a Sunwell Tankadin with PvE only focus.

• Every PvE Ret pally should have Kings. No excuse not to take it other than "PvP-only" talents. Go play arena then, nubcakes.

• There's almost no excuse not to have it as prot. It's almost impossible to come up with a sensible spec that has less than 2-3 points in Kings, at which point you may as well get all 5 points. You miss out on very marginal talents like "Imp HoJ".

• Holy can get Kings, but it's always a sacrifice. Best case they lose 3% spell crit (and crit is v. important to holy).

So for the RC tool, my suggestion would be:
• Ret has kings
• Prot has Kings
• Holy doesn't.

All that said... if you only have one paladin in-raid, he's about to hearth and respec into kings if he doesn't have it.

The Glpyh of BoM causes part of it to be +sp. So everyone in the raid, casters and melee, will want BoM. I think Ideally you'd have Ret give BoM, Prot gives BoSanc to Tanks and Kings to everyone else, Holy give Kings to tanks and Wisdom to everyone else.

Sanc, after all, is only really useful on tanks unless I missed something.

#18 Pereg

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 06:13 AM

Judgement of Light is missing from the list of debuffs. Very nice tool by the way!

#19 Prinsesa

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 06:16 AM

That Glyph of Blessing of Might has been removed from the game as far as I can tell. The only BOM Glyph is the minor one that makes it a 30 minute regular buff when self-cast.

On the topic of Kings:

It's very possible to never get it as a Prot Paladin. Once your basic build gets to THIS POINT, you need 3 more points somewhere to unlock the next tier.

Stoicism, Guardian's Favor, Divine Guardian and Improved HOJ are all PvP talents, so the decision is between Reckoning and BOK.

Reckoning is currently a lackluster talent, but a lackluster something is still arguably better than a Blessing that I will never cast on myself. Yes, there are non-tanks to consider, but those other people will be getting Blessing of Sanctuary for the 3% damage reduction on any progression fight with raid damage, since I'll be the only Paladin who'll have it.

Furthermore, even if I did pick BOK, that's still only 3 points for 6%. Maxing out BOK would require forgoing Ardent Defender (although AD is, like Reckoning, not exactly a stellar talent).
"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

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#20 Dehn

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 07:13 AM

Stoicism, Guardian's Favor, Divine Guardian and Improved HOJ are all PvP talents, so the decision is between Reckoning and BOK.


I would not view imp hoj as a pvp talent, now that it works like a normal interrupt. Its more or less mandatory in a tanking role.




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