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RaidComp – online raid calculator


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#21 Prinsesa

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 07:30 AM

I would not view imp hoj as a pvp talent, now that it works like a normal interrupt. Its more or less mandatory in a tanking role.


That pretty much depends on the encounter design we'll be facing.

As far as I've heard, none of the Naxx bosses cast an interrupt-or-die type of spell on the scale of Kael's Pyroblast or ROS' Deaden, nor do they cast an interrupt-or-its-really-painful-but-can-still-be-healed-through type of spell on the scale of Aran.

I don't know enough about WOTLK 5-mans to say if this extends to them as well, but the fact that they're 5-mans should eliminate most of that possibility.
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#22 Tyrian

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 08:54 AM

How far do you plan to extend the functionality of the mod? An 'available interrupts' category could be added. Although they might not be required for Naxx (aside from maybe Kel's Frostbolt) they most likely will in future encounters with a EOS/Aran/Romeo theme.

#23 Lujaar

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 11:05 AM

Just found raidcomp on mmo-champion. Good stuff.

You might consider making the [w] modifier (spell is weaker than others in the category) depend on the spec providing the buff rather than the buff itself. Curse of Elements never comes with a [w], even though a demonology or destro lock's CoE is 10% vs an aff lock/moonkin/unholy DK's 13%. Ditto ele and resto shaman windfury vs enhancement windfury.

For spells with big differences between the weaker and stronger versions, you might want to make two buff categories. Any shaman or frost DK provides "melee haste" - 16%. An enh shaman or frost DK provides "melee haste" and "improved melee haste," representing 4% extra.

Like others have said, it'd be cool to mouse over a character I haven't slotted and see which buffs they provide. Otherwise I'm never going to remember that a balance druid's Improved Chicken Dance provides +117.6 Spell Efficacy Rating but doesn't stack with a beast hunter's Bite of the Chupacabra which also reduces the target's Sunwell Radiance by intellect + log(pet happiness). It'd be handy to mouse over the beast hunter bar and see "Spell Efficacy" and "Sunwell Radiance Reduction." Or, you know, whatever they actually do.
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#24 Chicken

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 11:24 AM

I would not view imp hoj as a pvp talent, now that it works like a normal interrupt. Its more or less mandatory in a tanking role.

In case interrupts really matter both 60 seconds and 30 seconds are way too long a cooldown for you to count on your Prot Paladin interrupting. We're talking about raid compositions here, so it's extremely realistic that you have a combination of any of the following there: A Mage, Feral Druid, Warrior, Rogue, Shaman or Warlock. Basically, Hammer of Justice functions as a "Okay I have to interrupt and there's really no one else capable of doing an interrupt now" button, and there's something wrong if you need that every 30 seconds in a raid.

I'm not sure why it was brought up in the first place however, as it's easy enough to come up with a spec that doesn't have Kings which still only picks up much more useful talents, a 5/54/12 build for example: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

On the other hand, it's still easy enough to tweak this into a build that does take Kings, by either dropping 2 points in Seals of the Pure and dropping Reckoning, or alternatively by dropping Pursuit of Justice and Heart of the Crusader (Or any combination of these two solutions). And yes, before someone asks, I do consider 15% extra movement speed much more valuable than being able to interrupt once every 30 seconds instead of 60 seconds.

Edit:

Also in regards to "Why pick up Kings if you have Sanctuary?", Sanctuary is only a superior buff choice in most situations for tanks. Pretty much anyone else in your raid would prefer either Wisdom or Might, it's highly unlikely that you will ever pick up the talents for either of those as a Protection Paladin.

Sanctuary is simply problematic to plan in. If you have a Protection Paladin, it's suddenly optimal to plan for three blessings. If you don't, you're fine with two blessings. Pretty much everyone wants Kings and either Might or Wisdom. If you have two Paladins, and one is Ret and the other is Holy, you'd typically have the Ret Paladin buff everyone with Kings, and the Holy Paladin with Might or Wisdom (As the improved version of both of those is easy enough to pick up for any Holy spec). If one of the two is Prot however, you can't work this out as neatly, and it results in both Paladins picking up the full Kings talent to make up for the other Paladins blessing deficiency.

#25 Arvak-

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 12:06 PM

This is looking very promising. It'll definitely save me a lot of thought power when putting pugs together.

#26 Kabale

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 12:15 PM

Nice tool.

Although it looks completely messed up in IE6 (not sure about later versions).

#27 Dioneirra

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 12:45 PM

Speaking from a balance druid point of view, i would be careful in assuming that your local moonkin is able to provide Imp Faerie Fire. Right now it is the ability that will be most likely left out due to point shortage and problems with this talent in itself, so a maybe would be a more realistic assumption there. All other druidic buffs looks fine.

#28 sartissian

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 01:47 PM

Kudos on coming up with such a great tool. It seems to me that an in-game mod of this ilk to evaluate raid comp would also be incredibly useful. It makes me wish I had a clue about how to program addons.

As for enhancement ideas for the current web site version:
-I like the previously mentioned idea of adding a tooltip when you hover over a class that is already in the raid to denote what buffs they are bringing. I think it woudl be cool to go one step further and somehow indicate which of those are exclusively provided by that class given the current raid makeup (ie what would be lost if that player was removed from the raid).

Thanks for your work on this great tool!

#29 Vistol

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 02:12 PM

I think you missed the new stone skin totem and its numeric armor buff, that will be competing with SOE for a totem slot, and Devotion aura for armor value. It also has an improved version, with some talk of resto specing for it in 10/25 mans.

Edit* forgot to mention; great work this will be very useful.
Ohh great i have 8 Main tanks signed up again and 4 healers.

#30 Scraps

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 03:02 PM

This tool is fantastic, I love how straightforward and simple it is to use and read. While there are a lot of great ideas in this thread already, hopefully the basic tool look and feel can remain unchanged and those interested in really rine tuning our raid setups can tweak things like specs and specific talent points per character.

The ability to hover over the class and see what buffs they are expected to bring would definately be a helpful imrovement.

It would be great to be able to use this as a planning tool in terms of signups for raid nights as well. To support this, I suggest the ability to change the class spec to the players name once it is placed into a group slot. This way I could post a link to it in guildchat or on our guild forums and show everyone what the raidcomp is going to look like that night.

In a perfect world, this could also link to their armory profile.

The ability to hover over the name of each group eg 'Group 4' and see a tooltip breakdown of all buffs provided by that group would be slick as well.

Cheers!

#31 sylvanaar

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 03:14 PM

It may be contrary to the motivations behind the tool, but its worth mentioning some general "conceptual" enhancements:

Reverse the input. ie. specify #healers #tanks, and buffs you want, and get a list of classes - solve for the least number of classes needed to meet the constraints.

Or specify the classes you have, and specify #healers #tanks, and solve for most total buffs, or most total buffs to something ie maximize healing, maximize physical dps.

Not to do the thinking for you, more along the lines of how say outfitter will build an outfit that maximizes a certain stat. Generally you have to adjust what it picks, but it helps with rough outlines.

Edit: I just noticed the other thread about a raid composition tool, which has even more elaborate ideas than what I've mentioned

#32 Micah

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 04:28 PM

Made a raid based on a composition our guild normally has: MMO-Champion RaidComp

I have a fire mage (and an arcane mage) in the raid but improved scorch is still listed as "maybe".

#33 Prinsesa

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 04:51 PM

Made a raid based on a composition our guild normally has: MMO-Champion RaidComp

I have a fire mage (and an arcane mage) in the raid but improved scorch is still listed as "maybe".


There's some kind of conflict between the Fire and Arcane Mages:

Fire Mage by himself gives a check on the Spell Crit Debuff
Frost Mage by himself gives a check on the debuff
Arcane Mage by himself gives a maybe

Fire + Frost Mages give a check
Frost + Arcane Mages give a check
Fire + Arcane Mages give a maybe
"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

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#34 MatsT

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 05:32 PM

There's also an issue with "Stat Multiplier". It's impossible to get it covered without using at least two paladins, or three if one of them is prot. It doesn't seem to care that there are warriors making up for the loss of BoM.

A similiar issue exists with warlock curses. You can't get them all covered without 4 warlocks it seems, no matter how many other classes with the same debuffs you bring.

Missing buffs:
Armor (Devotion Aura, Stoneskin Totem)
Mana Regen (Blessing of Wisdom, Mana Spring)

There's also some things that should be removed in my opinion. For example the Discipline Priest's Grace isn't as much a raidbuff as a class ability. If you're going to include that, why not Power Infusion (and 100 other single-target buffs). Also, i would say that Dampen Magic shouldn't be in there as it's basically useless.

Lastly, you may want to consider some kind of marking if you only have the weaker version of a debuff, or some kind of color-scaling from dark to bright depending on how good version you have. It's easy to get tricked into thinking you have the spelldmg covered if you have a discipline priest, when it's actually only less than a third of what an elemental shaman would produce.

#35 Scobey

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 05:48 PM

Hmm, this is a great tool! Though it looks very familiar.....*cough*

But seriously, this looks like the cleanest and easiest to use version of many efforts to create a raid make-up tool, so kudos.

#36 Kyth

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 06:05 PM

Kudos on coming up with such a great tool. It seems to me that an in-game mod of this ilk to evaluate raid comp would also be incredibly useful. It makes me wish I had a clue about how to program addons.


There is already :). It's even linked in his original post! (albeit slightly hidden, it's true)

http://elitistjerks....buff_checklist/

It reads talents directly from your raid members so knows "for sure" what's available. Only the raidleader needs it, and it doesn't require any other mods or specific frameworks to use.

It's also available on WoWMatrix if you use them for updating (thanks to WoWMatrix for the speedy turnaround on adding InTheBuff.)


This thread made me happy because:

(a) it's the perfect complement to the in-game mod I wrote, so it's awesome to have it out there (offline planning and fiddling are useful, as is being able to link to exact comps instead of laboriously writing it out), and

(B) it's hopefully going to ferret out the information I want for the new version of InTheBuff: namely, I want to record the *non*shared abilities also, so you can know how many brezzes, whether or not summoning is covered, etc., all at a glance.


Good work to Nopher and the LR crew and Bibi for getting this out there. Two sorts of tools available also means two sets of eyes watching for changes we need to incorporate in future patches.

#37 Balmafula

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 06:18 PM

Right now only Marksmanship Hunters are listed as having Aimed Shot, but I've never seen a Hunter without it, regardless of spec. It should at least be a maybe for BM and SV Hunters.

Maybe a way to mark certain raid members as definitely doing one buff/debuff, so RaidComp knows a mutually exclusive buff won't be provided. For example, marking an Enhancement Shaman as definitely using Windfury Totem would make Wrath of Air Totem inactive.

#38 Douglas

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 06:27 PM

Maybe a way to mark certain raid members as definitely doing one buff/debuff, so RaidComp knows a mutually exclusive buff won't be provided. For example, marking an Enhancement Shaman as definitely using Windfury Totem would make Wrath of Air Totem inactive.


The ultimate version would integrate armory lookups. Let me type in a list of potential players, pulled from my guild forums where our signup sheets are, and populate the draggable pile on the left of the page with the retreived data.

Hm, maybe this is an opportunity to experiment with the client-side SQL features from HTML 5...

#39 sartissian

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 06:36 PM

There is already :). It's even linked in his original post! (albeit slightly hidden, it's true)

http://elitistjerks....buff_checklist/

It reads talents directly from your raid members so knows "for sure" what's available. Only the raidleader needs it, and it doesn't require any other mods or specific frameworks to use.

It's also available on WoWMatrix if you use them for updating (thanks to WoWMatrix for the speedy turnaround on adding InTheBuff.)


Dang, I swear I searched around before posting the request. Thanks for hooking me up, though :)

#40 Nethris

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 08:40 PM

Right now only Marksmanship Hunters are listed as having Aimed Shot, but I've never seen a Hunter without it, regardless of spec. It should at least be a maybe for BM and SV Hunters.

Maybe a way to mark certain raid members as definitely doing one buff/debuff, so RaidComp knows a mutually exclusive buff won't be provided. For example, marking an Enhancement Shaman as definitely using Windfury Totem would make Wrath of Air Totem inactive.


While that might be nice, it's not that bad to check the maybes to see if one of your raiders would be using it - a list of what conflicting buffs exist - ie, showing the other main option other than windfury is wrath of air - on the tooltip for the maybe buff would probably be more useful, and would combine well with tooltips for the different specs to show what buffs/buff categories they will provide and could provide.




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