Jump to content


Photo

WotLK Healing Compendium v3.0 [theorycraft, specs, etc]


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
2225 replies to this topic

#21 Xiv

Xiv

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 12:04 PM

On 3.0.2 live, CoH is still a targeted spell. If you cast it and do not have a target, your mouse pointer changes for you to select a target.

From where do you get the impression that non-targeted CoH is at all possible? Is that how it works in the betaJoin

hmm, I'm actually casting it on myself when I have no target, but only just figured that it doesn't even have to heal the person you target and is 100% smart. I thought it would be healing the 1 you cast it on plus the 4/5 lowest around your target. My bad.

#22 Xiv

Xiv

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 12:08 PM

removed.

#23 Exinfernis

Exinfernis

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 12:14 PM

Immaculate work as ever Constantius, thank you for the time/effort.

Given the nigh-mandatory 14 points spent in Disc, the Holy tree sees full fruition only at lvl 80 unfortunately.
In the end, there is nothing

#24 Crow

Crow

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 55 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 01:28 PM

1. 1% crit = 166.67 intellect
2. 1 intellect = 0.0125 Mp5 (Replenishment)
3. 1 intellect = 0.208 Mp5 (6 minute fight, mana pool size)
4. 1 intellect = 0.083 Mp5 (6 minute fight, shadowfiend)
5. 1 intellect = 0.114 Mp5 (Holy, 6 minute fight, IHC procs from crit, split 50/50 Flash and GHeal)
6. 1 intellect = 0.017 Mp5 (Disc, 6 minute fight, Divine Aegis absorb crits procing Rapture)
7. 1 intellect = 0.194 Mp5 (Meditation, 1000 spirit assumed, 80% I5SR)
8. 1 spirit = 0.388 Mp5 (Meditation, 1000 intellect assumed, 80% I5SR)
9. 1 spirit = 0.25 spellpower (Holy, Spiritual Guidance)



Ad 2.
If 1 int is 15 mana, than 15 * 0.25%*5 is 0.1875 MP5 per point of int from replenishment (which translates to 0.206 and 0.237 (based on build) as mentioned in section II ). Am I missing something? I am assuming 100% replenishment uptime, which obviously is not true, but the value 0.0125 seems to assume less than 10% uptime, which obviously is not case as well…

Ad 4.
It is possibly worth noting that this value assumes 41% return from shadowfiend. The numbers suggested in section Vb (25-30%) would result in 0.052 – 0.062 MP5 / point of int.

Ad 5.
According to calculations below this number assumes 50/50 split between GH and BH (47 chances to proc per minute). 50/50 split between FH and GH would mean (still according to numbers below – 42 FH/minute vs 10GH/minute) 26 chances to proc per minute, leading to 0.117 expected procs per 1% crit. That in turn changes our 1.3 free casts to 0.7 free casts, resulting in (1054 * 0.7 / 167 = 4.4 mana) 0.061 MP5 per point of int.

I was also unable to verify the summary of int value at the end of the section. Summarizing the values listed above, and multiplying by 1.1/1.265 would lead to 0.672/0.663. Moreover, if we replaced the replenishment value of int by 0.1875 we would get 0.865 / 0.872 (almost 2 times the value of spirit mp5 ).

I hope those minor comments will help in development of your guide, which was a great help for me for a long time now. Since I am here I would like to thank you a lot for your effort, Constantius.

EDIT: fixed calculation error in mp5 value per point of int for FH/GH split

#25 Melrose

Melrose

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 01:41 PM

How do the changes to CoH make Holy Reach less necessary than before? I would think that the CoH changes make Holy Reach more valuable, since CoH heals are now likely to look outside of a certain cluster of players (since clusters are usually organized by group or function) if said cluster is already topped off. The extra range provided by Holy Reach will allow CoH to smart-target an even broader range of possible raid-wide targets.


This is also my concern. Would it not be more beneficial at least to move the one point you have out of Desperate Prayer into Holy Reach? With the CoH smart-targetting, it seems more important than ever to have Holy Reach.

Aside from that, really great source of information as always. Thanks :)

#26 lenvik

lenvik

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:01 PM

You might want to mention (in the shadowfiend section) using your shadowfiend just before a shaman bloodlusts. I assume it still works for the fiend?

Also: prayer of mending generates 0 healing threat for anyone on 3.0.2 live (haven't checked the beta recently).

You should change Omen/Threat-1.0 to Omen3, using the inbuilt threat data.

#27 Onestandard

Onestandard

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:21 PM

Q: What are the must-have talents for a Holy priest?
A: IHC, Serendipity, Guardian Spirit, and obviously Spiritual Healing. Guardian Spirit is remarkably good for a 51-point talent; you have to spend a lot of points to get it, but its usefulness cannot be overstated. Serendipity is holy's equivalence to Rapture, and is again a tremendous talent, and IHC has to be seen to be appreciated. The haste and mana return benefits are extremely strong.


I'm interested in the rationale behind the assertion that Serendipity is a "must-have" talent now. I'm guessing the idea is that combined with SoL it results in free mana from a free heal? Otherwise, it's pretty much the same situational benefit of 2-piece T5.

I'd also question why Imp:Spi for Disc is a waste of points, seeing as spirit/regen in general has become more important for all mana users in Wrath.

#28 lenvik

lenvik

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:28 PM

I'm interested in the rationale behind the assertion that Serendipity is a "must-have" talent now. I'm guessing the idea is that combined with SoL it results in free mana from a free heal? Otherwise, it's pretty much the same situational benefit of 2-piece T5.

I'd also question why Imp:Spi for Disc is a waste of points, seeing as spirit/regen in general has become more important for all mana users in Wrath.


2 piece T5 was pretty amazing in TBC and Serendipity is really good now. You can aim to have most of your heals do some overhealing.

#29 YukinoHana

YukinoHana

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:31 PM

I'm interested in the rationale behind the assertion that Serendipity is a "must-have" talent now. I'm guessing the idea is that combined with SoL it results in free mana from a free heal? Otherwise, it's pretty much the same situational benefit of 2-piece T5.

I'd also question why Imp:Spi for Disc is a waste of points, seeing as spirit/regen in general has become more important for all mana users in Wrath.


Serendipity returns more than the 2-piece T5 and doesn't require you to use inferior healing gear to obtain the mana returns. It also works off of both flash heal and greater heal, which means with flash heal glyph, for healing deficits of around 3k, flash heal is actually more efficient than using a renew and is more HPS. And of course, for tank healing, it's invaluable. Sure, you could argue if you cast NOTHING but CoH, you won't see any benefits, but what are the realistic chances you never, ever, ever, ever, ever single target heal in a raid? It's virtually nil for me. And what talents would you take that would so vastly improve your raid healing that you're willing to slaughter your single target healing efficiency to a point where it'd be pointless to put you on single target healing -because in a single target situation, parses show serendipity as returning more mana than meditation. I personally can't see any that are so compelling in either Holy or next tier Disc that would warrant dropping Serendipity.

Imp: Disc is a waste of talent points because it doesn't stack with flametongue totem and that gives higher spell damage, I believe.

#30 Hegen

Hegen

    In gear/DCT lock pin

  • Members
  • 1,540 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:52 PM

I'm interested in the rationale behind the assertion that Serendipity is a "must-have" talent now. I'm guessing the idea is that combined with SoL it results in free mana from a free heal? Otherwise, it's pretty much the same situational benefit of 2-piece T5.


I think the most important reason is this one:

In 2-piece T5 times, you had a choice: downrank for mana efficiency or intentionally overheal to reduce risk. 2pc T5 was made to improve mana efficiency in places where you absolutely want to overheal.

You no longer have that choice. Downranking is gone, so you need Serendipity do come at least near your old mana efficiency.

The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.


#31 PowerBaton

PowerBaton

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 37 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:04 PM

Really good work, keep it up constantius, about that "aura mod" for SoL procs, im using: Curse.com - ThankGod Update. Every HC, IHC and SoL sexy female tell you about proc, and there is flash on screen aswell.

#32 Turgid

Turgid

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:10 PM

I'm interested in the rationale behind the assertion that Serendipity is a "must-have" talent now. I'm guessing the idea is that combined with SoL it results in free mana from a free heal? Otherwise, it's pretty much the same situational benefit of 2-piece T5.

I'd also question why Imp:Spi for Disc is a waste of points, seeing as spirit/regen in general has become more important for all mana users in Wrath.

Serendipity only refunds spent mana, so a SoL-triggered Flash Heal that cost 0 mana to begin with will refund 0 mana. Similarly, Serendipity refunds 0 mana from heals cast with Inner Focus or Clearcasting. The T5 2-pc would give you 100 mana whether or not the heal resulting in overheal actually cost any mana.

Divine Spirit isn't a waste of a point, just that the points in Improved Divine Spirit are.

#33 YukinoHana

YukinoHana

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:18 PM

The T5 2-pc would give you 100 mana whether or not the heal resulting in overheal actually cost any mana.


True. On the other hand, the 2-piece T5 only applies for GHeals, not flash heals, which is now a reasonable useful raid healing talent.

#34 Turgid

Turgid

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 69 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:21 PM

True. On the other hand, the 2-piece T5 only applies for GHeals, not flash heals, which is now a reasonable useful raid healing talent.

Correct. I wasn't trying to compare the value of the two, just clarify the differences in their mechanics.

#35 Mokhtar

Mokhtar

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 116 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 07:15 PM

With the CoH smart-targetting, it seems more important than ever to have Holy Reach.

I agree completely, let's not forget that holy reach increases radius by 20% but that means that actual covered surface (which is the relevant metric in this case) is increased by 44%, this is a big upgrade in my opinion.

#36 Zyzzx

Zyzzx

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 28 October 2008 - 07:56 PM

Thank you for the time and effort you have put into this comprehensive guide, Constantius.


My question pertains to the relationship between Grace and Blessing of Sanctuary (BoS). The new buff system prevents them from "stacking" on a target. Given that, what (if any) mechanic resolves an attempt to grant Grace to a player already affected by BoS? IIRC, the buffs differ in two ways: BoS is a flat 3% damage reduction (and does not "ramp up" like Grace), and Grace grants a 2/4/6% bonus to healing done to the target by the priest. I would imagine that Grace would overwrite BoS, were it not for the fact that the initial cast provides a lesser bonus, potentially triggering a "more powerful effect" response. Any idea how the new system handles this?

#37 constantius

constantius

    Soda Popinski

  • Members
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 29 October 2008 - 01:21 PM

I agree completely, let's not forget that holy reach increases radius by 20% but that means that actual covered surface (which is the relevant metric in this case) is increased by 44%, this is a big upgrade in my opinion.


Here's the issue with that. How often do you have enough people spread out enough that the extra points actually matter? I can't think of a single fight in BT or HS excepting KJ where it would actually make a difference to me. And, having cleared all content on Beta atm (no Ulduar, but afaik, they never pushed that), I can't think of a single fight there where it would matter except possibly Sapphiron. And realistically, you shouldn't be using CoH on spread out people on Sapp anyway: Renew and FH are more efficient and timely.

Yes, it's a decent talent. No, it's not something I think is more powerful than the alternatives. You figure out a spec that retains CoH, 6/6 IHC, 3/3 Serendipity, 5/5 Holy Spec, and 2/2 SoL while obviously keeping Meditation that also manages to get 2/2 Holy Reach, and I'll talk. :)

My question pertains to the relationship between Grace and Blessing of Sanctuary (BoS). The new buff system prevents them from "stacking" on a target. Given that, what (if any) mechanic resolves an attempt to grant Grace to a player already affected by BoS? IIRC, the buffs differ in two ways: BoS is a flat 3% damage reduction (and does not "ramp up" like Grace), and Grace grants a 2/4/6% bonus to healing done to the target by the priest. I would imagine that Grace would overwrite BoS, were it not for the fact that the initial cast provides a lesser bonus, potentially triggering a "more powerful effect" response. Any idea how the new system handles this?

Honestly, no clue. Wreath (the other priest in Fusion) went Disc for a night, and experienced no issues getting Grace stacked, despite a full prot paladin in the raid casting BoSanc. Not sure if this is indicative of anything. Anyone else have any practical experience they'd like to share?

Ad 2.
If 1 int is 15 mana, than 15 * 0.25%*5 is 0.1875 MP5 per point of int from replenishment (which translates to 0.206 and 0.237 (based on build) as mentioned in section II ). Am I missing something? I am assuming 100% replenishment uptime, which obviously is not true, but the value 0.0125 seems to assume less than 10% uptime, which obviously is not case as well…

Ad 4.
It is possibly worth noting that this value assumes 41% return from shadowfiend. The numbers suggested in section Vb (25-30%) would result in 0.052 – 0.062 MP5 / point of int.

Ad 5.
According to calculations below this number assumes 50/50 split between GH and BH (47 chances to proc per minute). 50/50 split between FH and GH would mean (still according to numbers below – 42 FH/minute vs 10GH/minute) 26 chances to proc per minute, leading to 0.117 expected procs per 1% crit. That in turn changes our 1.3 free casts to 0.7 free casts, resulting in (1054 * 0.7 / 167 = 4.4 mana) 0.026 MP5 per point of int.

I was also unable to verify the summary of int value at the end of the section. Summarizing the values listed above, and multiplying by 1.1/1.265 would lead to 0.672/0.663. Moreover, if we replaced the replenishment value of int by 0.1875 we would get 0.865 / 0.872 (almost 2 times the value of spirit mp5 ).

Ad. 2: you're right, not sure where my number came from. I'll take a closer look at what I was theoretically thinking later when my head is less fuzzy.

Ad. 4: I haven't seen my Shadowfiend return less than 10 hits @ 4% each so far in 3.0.x. Max so far is 15, minimum 11. That is, of course, excepting cases where I'm stupid and launch him into AE of death. :) In that case, modeling as ~ 40% is reasonable, I think.

Ad. 5: You're right that this was never anything but a hack model. We could debate this one forever. I'll run another pass at it and see what I come up with. Either way we do it, it's fairly small compared to Replenishment, mana pool, and shadowfiend. At 167 int per percent crit, it's not going to scale quickly at all.

The value at the end should have just been the sum of all of the factors, multiplied by the scaling factors allowed (BoK for holy, BoK+MS for disc). Of course, who knows. I asked for some feedback on the models, but this is the first I've seen. I'll see what I can integrate and get back to y'all.

I'd also question why Imp:Spi for Disc is a waste of points, seeing as spirit/regen in general has become more important for all mana users in Wrath.

As mentioned above, I just want to re-emphasize: no-one is suggesting a Disc priest skip Divine Spirit. Great, wonderful, spectacular buff. Love it to death. However, Improved Divine Spirit is the most laughable waste of talent points since Lightwell was our 31st point talent. Actually, scratch that. Since Holy Nova was our 31st point talent.

It's horrible. Unimproved, vanilla, completely baseline Flametongue Totem is almost TWICE AS MUCH SPELLPOWER as IDS. ToW absolutely destroys it. It's the most laughable excuse for a buff (talented, no less) that I can think of Blizzard pushing as a "fundamental part of a Discipline priest's arsenal". Honestly, it's a slap in the face. I tried to tell them on the Beta, multiple times, but all I got back was Koraa being his usual dense self. Hopefully the priest mini-review they're planning for the spring will fix it. Until then, don't spec it. Laugh at people that do, and then educate them. It's horrible.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

#38 Glasswizard

Glasswizard

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 90 posts

Posted 29 October 2008 - 02:14 PM

Yes, it's a decent talent. No, it's not something I think is more powerful than the alternatives. You figure out a spec that retains CoH, 6/6 IHC, 3/3 Serendipity, 5/5 Holy Spec, and 2/2 SoL while obviously keeping Meditation that also manages to get 2/2 Holy Reach, and I'll talk. :)


Holy Reach is on tier 4 in the holy talent tree, so if we can agree that in those first 4 tiers Holy Spec 5/5, Divine Fury 5/5, Inspiration 3/3 and Improved Healing 3/3 are must have talents, there are still 4 talentpoints left. Those can be spend on Holy Reach, Improved Renew, maybe Desperate Prayer. That's the competition we have here. Holy Reach doesn't really compete with CoH, IHC, SoL or Serendipity in my book.

#39 RonRico

RonRico

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 29 October 2008 - 02:27 PM

Here's the issue with that. How often do you have enough people spread out enough that the extra points actually matter? I can't think of a single fight in BT or HS excepting KJ where it would actually make a difference to me. And, having cleared all content on Beta atm (no Ulduar, but afaik, they never pushed that), I can't think of a single fight there where it would matter except possibly Sapphiron. And realistically, you shouldn't be using CoH on spread out people on Sapp anyway: Renew and FH are more efficient and timely.

Yes, it's a decent talent. No, it's not something I think is more powerful than the alternatives. You figure out a spec that retains CoH, 6/6 IHC, 3/3 Serendipity, 5/5 Holy Spec, and 2/2 SoL while obviously keeping Meditation that also manages to get 2/2 Holy Reach, and I'll talk.



If this is your reasoning then I would recommend removing the statement...

A: It's really not necessary now that CoH is smart-targeted and raid-wide.



...from the first post because it really has nothing to do with why you consider it less valuable. It's bound to confuse people like myself who are trying to find out exactly what has changed since the patch. Just my 2 cents. Great guide and thanks for all the hard work.

#40 faesomething

faesomething

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 29 October 2008 - 02:52 PM

I've been 51/10/0 since the patch and I've never seen an issue with grace stacking on anyone buffed with Blessing of Sanctuary or otherwise. As far as I can tell the new system allows buffs that "overwrite" each other to still exist on a target, but only the greater of the effects is counted. So in this case BoS (3%) will used until grace hits 2 stacks (4%) at which point grace will be counted. I'll spend some time tonight to confirm this if I can find a willing pali to help out. Anyone have a suggestion for a normalized damage source to use for this sort of testing?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users