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WotLK Healing Compendium v3.0 [theorycraft, specs, etc]


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#41 Vvildcard

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:21 PM

My question pertains to the relationship between Grace and Blessing of Sanctuary (BoS). The new buff system prevents them from "stacking" on a target. Given that, what (if any) mechanic resolves an attempt to grant Grace to a player already affected by BoS? IIRC, the buffs differ in two ways: BoS is a flat 3% damage reduction (and does not "ramp up" like Grace), and Grace grants a 2/4/6% bonus to healing done to the target by the priest. I would imagine that Grace would overwrite BoS, were it not for the fact that the initial cast provides a lesser bonus, potentially triggering a "more powerful effect" response. Any idea how the new system handles this?


Confirmed: The Grace buff (all ranks) stacks with BoS. I believe this is because Grace also has a +Healing% component. I have definitely never had a stacking problem with the two.

I haven't tested to see if the damage reduction portion of the buffs stack.

#42 Vvildcard

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:24 PM

I've been 51/10/0 since the patch and I've never seen an issue with grace stacking on anyone buffed with Blessing of Sanctuary or otherwise. As far as I can tell the new system allows buffs that "overwrite" each other to still exist on a target, but only the greater of the effects is counted. So in this case BoS (3%) will used until grace hits 2 stacks (4%) at which point grace will be counted. I'll spend some time tonight to confirm this if I can find a willing pali to help out. Anyone have a suggestion for a normalized damage source to use for this sort of testing?


Duel and use SW:P and/or Devouring Plague - they should tick for the same amount every time.

#43 Celillenna

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:24 PM

Q: What are the must-have talents for a Discipline priest?
A: Rapture, Grace, and Penance. To a lesser extent, Borrowed Time and Renewed Hope build nicely together with Improved PW:S and Twin Disciplines to provide for high-absorption shields that give secondary benefits. Enlightenment is also a remarkably nice talent to have, easily being the most valuable talent in the entire tree in terms of gear replacement (gaining 5% haste and 5% spirit is a *tremendous* amount of ilvl points saved, to be put into something more interesting, like crit).


I'm a bit confused as to why DA isn't listed as a must-have, since it's our "use crit" talent, and mentioned elsewhere in your post as something you assume disc priests will have.

#44 metapseudo

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:24 PM

Since 1 intellect = 1 spirit (effectively) for ilvl points spent, we really have no loss in gaining one versus the other. The exception to this rule is in considering gear that has no spirit on it, as those items are in much much higher demand, especially by dps casters (for cloth items) and by all casters and healers (for necks, rings, and trinkets, along with weapons). You will find it much easier to pick up spirit items than non-spirit, simply because of that competition. Thus, I am going to assume that any item you grab is a spirit+int item, just for sake of argument. When this is true, the minimum gearing you will be at, fully raid-buffed (25-man), in ilvl 186+ rare or epic pieces, will be 1000 intellect + 1000 spirit. This is, of course, assuming full enchants, and all raid buffs possible, along with consumables. So use 1000/1000 as our starting point.


I would like to point out that appart from less competition on items with spirit, assuming that ilvl computation stays same in wotlk:
- the more balanced stats the item have the better
- stamina value 0.5, spirit and intellect value is 1, mp5 value is 2.5, spell power is 0.85
- there are few items having both mp5 and spirit

Then from ilvl point of view it would be best to have an item with these stats in ratio
sta:spi:int:mp5:spell power = 20:10:10:4:12

That is of course theoretical and no such items exist. Still it is better from ilvl point of view to take the item having spirit, intellect a spell power then taking one having only intellect and spell power.

see: Item level - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

#45 dukes

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:55 PM

I would like to point out that appart from less competition on items with spirit, assuming that ilvl computation stays same in wotlk:
- the more balanced stats the item have the better
- stamina value 0.5, spirit and intellect value is 1, mp5 value is 2.5, spell power is 0.85
- there are few items having both mp5 and spirit

Then from ilvl point of view it would be best to have an item with these stats in ratio
sta:spi:int:mp5:spell power = 20:10:10:4:12

That is of course theoretical and no such items exist. Still it is better from ilvl point of view to take the item having spirit, intellect a spell power then taking one having only intellect and spell power.

see: Item level - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft


Stamina value is 0.67 (which your link confirms).

#46 SeanDamnit

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:12 PM

I'm curious to know why Healing Focus isn't part of your recommended raid build. I always thought this talent was a necessity. Is there something I'm missing about the talent that makes it less valuable then, say, 2% crit from the Holy Spec talent?
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#47 YukinoHana

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:20 PM

I'm curious to know why Healing Focus isn't part of your recommended raid build. I always thought this talent was a necessity. Is there something I'm missing about the talent that makes it less valuable then, say, 2% crit from the Holy Spec talent?


It was addressed earlier in this thread. Pushback was changed to max out at 1 second. Healing Focus was changed from giving 70% chance to *ignore* pushback completely to only giving 70% reduction to the effects of pushback. However, now that auras are raid wide, it's almost certain in a 25 man raid you'll have Improved Concentration aura, which also no longer stacks with Healing Focus like it used to (to give us completely immunity to pushback). Imp Conc Aura reduces pushback effects by 55%, so you're spending 2 talent points for a .15 second (at best) reduction in pushback. Most people find 2% crit to be more beneficial, given its synergy with HC/IHC/SoL (for holy), and DA/Rapture for Disc.

#48 Roywyn

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:30 PM

As mentioned above, I just want to re-emphasize: no-one is suggesting a Disc priest skip Divine Spirit. Great, wonderful, spectacular buff. Love it to death. However, Improved Divine Spirit is the most laughable waste of talent points since Lightwell was our 31st point talent. Actually, scratch that. Since Holy Nova was our 31st point talent.

It has been reported to me from people who tested it in-game that the Spell Power gained by IDS does actually stack with Flametongue/Wrath/Pact.
It does however not stack with the personal spirit scaling of a Warlock's Fel Armour.

Could be worth testing and/or reporting as it's not supposed to stack.
Maybe they changed their mind about buff stacking on this one?
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#49 Havoc12

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:36 PM

Yes, it's a decent talent. No, it's not something I think is more powerful than the alternatives. You figure out a spec that retains CoH, 6/6 IHC, 3/3 Serendipity, 5/5 Holy Spec, and 2/2 SoL while obviously keeping Meditation that also manages to get 2/2 Holy Reach, and I'll talk. :)


Drop desperate prayer and get 1/2 divine reach. My experience is that people simply don't realise what divine reach does for CoH. Its not easy to spot the fact that you are missing a target every 5-10 CoH, but if you do (and there are very few enounters where you dont) its easily a drop of 2-5% healing. Everytime you don't use CoH because you are missing 1-2 targets every time you cast it, divine reach is worth gold.

There is no question that divine reach is better than desperate prayer in terms of healing output and efficiency. Desperate prayer only pays its divident everytime it saves your life.

This is what I will spec at 80: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

=========================================

SoL:

@lvl 70: SoL+CoH -->20% crit:

chance to proc SoL = 1-(1-0.20/2)^5 = 0.40951


@80: SoL + CoH --> 25% crit:

chance to proc SoL = 1-(1-0.25/2)^6 = 0.551204681


Obviously you will get a lot of procs, but what does each of them do. Each proc gives you a free flash heal, but this FH cannot crit, and cannot proc serendipity. So that means the mana value of the heal is the mana cost of an FH, minus the FH glyph, - serendipity return - clearcasting.

At 70 with say an average serendipity return of 80%, 20% crit, and the flash heal glyph, that means 360odd mana. With 20% crit chance you also get 6-9% clearcasting which further reduces cost to ~330 mana. To give SoL every benefit of doubt I am going to ignore the fact that a clearcast has a better return than just reducing cost.

At 80 rasing the crit to 25% each proc saves you ~500 mana.

At the very best of situations u can use an SoL every 5 seconds. That means 330mp5 at 70 and 500mp5 at 80, or 165/250mp5 per point.

It certainly looks like a lot of regen, especially considering that healing prayers returns 35mp5/48mp5 or so from PoM and maybe something similar from PoH if you use it.

This is the theory anyway and it paints a far rosier picture for SoL than it deserves. In practice getting 1 SoL flash off every 5 seconds, is very very tough indeed. In BT I barely got off 1 every 15 seconds, despite heavy CoH usage, simply because it was pointless to use it. In most cases the damage would get healed by the AoE healing anyway, so the SoL just wasted time.

I personally dont accept that SoL is worth anything more than 80mp5 per point at 70 (I can't say much about it at 80). Its still more than healing prayers, but healing prayers doesn't make me bleed HPS.

I consider this a classic case of ppl getting excited about a talent that is not actually that great, simply because it procs a lot.

Comparing lightwell with SoL, it would take 15 SoL procs to produce the same healing and I just can't see how its possible to get that in under 2 minutes. However 15 SoL procs also cost you 22.5 seconds of casting time, while the lightwell just costs you 1.5 seconds. My personal experience is that that even if only half the charges of lightwell are used, it has a better return than SoL.

SoL is not a musthave at all. It can have a decent mana return, but its not really any better than the alternatives. Its a great deal of micromanagement, for no good reason. Lightwell and healing prayers, not only give you overall the same return, they also take a lot less micromanagement on your part and make PoH more usable opening up another option. Less time monitoring procs = more time concentrating on what you have to do.
If Divine providence is also changed to reduce PoM cooldown, then healing prayers will be hands down better than SoL.

#50 Shatter Combo w/ Fries

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:48 PM

Its a great deal of micromanagement, for no good reason. Lightwell and healing prayers, not only give you overall the same return, they also take a lot less micromanagement on your part and make PoH more usable opening up another option. Less time monitoring procs = more time concentrating on what you have to do.


I don't really disagree with the rest of your post, but this is a bit silly. The game is played 1.5 seconds at a time. Not to sound like an e-thug, but if anyone is having trouble keeping up with that pace, it's time to find a new hobby. At the point in this game where it is worthwhile to care about the benefits of SoL compared to other things, when that tiny bit of mana you will or will not have will actually matter, if you can't keep track of if you have the SoL buff or not (which is quite easy to determine with any number of mods... or just by looking at the buff icon), then you should really be comfortable enough to where it is not a burden at all to 'micromanage' SoL, it will just be second nature.

#51 Lambi

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:06 PM

It has been reported to me from people who tested it in-game that the Spell Power gained by IDS does actually stack with Flametongue/Wrath/Pact.
It does however not stack with the personal spirit scaling of a Warlock's Fel Armour.

Could be worth testing and/or reporting as it's not supposed to stack.
Maybe they changed their mind about buff stacking on this one?


It's the lvl70 version not being changed. The lvl80 version does NOT stack with Flametongue/Wrath/Pact.

#52 RootBreaker

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:10 PM

It's the lvl70 version not being changed. The lvl80 version does NOT stack with Flametongue/Wrath/Pact.

Are you implying that we're going to be using rank 5 divine spirit at level 80 for the spellpower bonus or is it the new rank of totem of wrath that will stop them from stacking?

#53 Havoc12

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:15 PM

I don't really disagree with the rest of your post, but this is a bit silly. The game is played 1.5 seconds at a time. Not to sound like an e-thug, but if anyone is having trouble keeping up with that pace, it's time to find a new hobby. At the point in this game where it is worthwhile to care about the benefits of SoL compared to other things, when that tiny bit of mana you will or will not have will actually matter, if you can't keep track of if you have the SoL buff or not (which is quite easy to determine with any number of mods... or just by looking at the buff icon), then you should really be comfortable enough to where it is not a burden at all to 'micromanage' SoL, it will just be second nature.


Sorry but I dont heal like that at all. Most of my concentration goes onto predicting who will take damage and thinking ahead which spell to use where.

Its not a question of whether you have the SoL buff, but where to use it and when . Lets say you cast CoH, you notice a proc (which you won't until you have already cast another instant if you are spamming) and you just hit the first person you see with a deficit, now if your next CoH overheals on that target because only 5 targets are damaged now instead of 6, you have just wasted your time.

#54 Isin

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:58 PM

Sorry but I dont heal like that at all. Most of my concentration goes onto predicting who will take damage and thinking ahead which spell to use where.

Its not a question of whether you have the SoL buff, but where to use it and when . Lets say you cast CoH, you notice a proc (which you won't until you have already cast another instant if you are spamming) and you just hit the first person you see with a deficit, now if your next CoH overheals on that target because only 5 targets are damaged now instead of 6, you have just wasted your time.


Yeah we get that you don't like SoL; you've made like 20 posts to that effect. I don't see how this specific case you've crafted here adds to the argument though. I suppose that yes, if exactly only 5 targets were taking the exact same amount of damage for a constant period of time, then CoH spam without using your SoL procs would be the right thing to do, but in general you can react to the effects of your CoH in the 1.5 seconds in between casts and change your plan accordingly. I have not personally had a problem inserting instant flash heals into a CoH spam cycle in a 25 man raid, and have found that using a SoL and inner focusing my next CoH is a nice way to get some O5SR time.

#55 constantius

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 08:19 PM

The other main advantage of SoL, similar to the paladin talent Infusion of Light, is that it gives us (another) instant cast heal. If you're moving out of <insert AE effect here, i.e. FIRE>, and you CoH the group around you, and get a SoL proc, you can hit the person with the lowest health for some immediate coverage. It's a drastic increase in HpS to the lowest person when considered against casting another CoH. Obviously you do more total overall healing by casting another CoH, assuming there are targets to hit. But that lowest person might have already died.

Now, you could easily argue for a PW:S. But that costs mana. So when it comes to comparing the two, I'd much rather use a SoL'd Flash Heal than a PW:S.

Yes, it breaks the flow of chain-casting CoH on the raid. But as we've stated time and time again, there is No More Chain Casting CoH. You can't sustain it. You shouldn't be doing it. And if you're not chain-casting, there's worlds of time to fit a free Flash Heal in there.

Last week, I got 178 procs of SoL over our BT clear, most on trash. And it was tremendously useful. CoH a group, Flash the lowest. By that point, the other CoH and CHeals hit, and the group is topped up.

It's a useful talent. It's worth taking. It's better than a lot of alternatives. I'd sooner drop Healing Prayers and Holy Reach than Surge of Light now. It's not totally about efficiency. It's about tools in our toolbox. When we just got an expansion with no meaningful new spells for Holy, it's time to look at new procs and talents and see how we can use them effectively (obviously Disc got Penance; different world). SoL, IHC, Inner Focus all add up to OO5SR regen. It's the new Clearcast+IF, only a lot more likely to happen because of the nature of CoH (6 targets, independent 20%+ chance to crit on each one, 50% chance on crit, etc, etc).

#56 metapseudo

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 08:36 PM

To provide some data for our discussions, I am posting wowwebstats for usage of FH and GH either naked, or with 1317 spell power.

Wow Web Stats

Talent tree was World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

Notice that there are some procs of MH ring in data so filter it for proper results.

There is couple of points visible from it:
- 1 Spell power seems to be 1.85 healing
- Empovered healing coeficient with some haste gear on is not 3/3.5 for GH but 2.8/3.5 where 2.83 is spell duration after spell haste is applied (6% haste)
- Casting time with included spell hast is probably rounded to nearest 1/10 second as for FH with the same haste coeficient 1.5/3.5 looks ok

I am not sure about the coeficients for Empovered Healing but measured data seem to be in accordance with the calculation.

#57 Havoc12

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:26 PM

Yeah we get that you don't like SoL; you've made like 20 posts to that effect. I don't see how this specific case you've crafted here adds to the argument though. I suppose that yes, if exactly only 5 targets were taking the exact same amount of damage for a constant period of time, then CoH spam without using your SoL procs would be the right thing to do, but in general you can react to the effects of your CoH in the 1.5 seconds in between casts and change your plan accordingly. I have not personally had a problem inserting instant flash heals into a CoH spam cycle in a 25 man raid, and have found that using a SoL and inner focusing my next CoH is a nice way to get some O5SR time.


Inserting a free cast does not mean it actually did anything. You get your shiny proc, you get your instant flash, but are you quite certain that you have actually gained any benefit. There rest of your post makes no sense to me.

CoH/PoM provides very uniform healing even when the targets are taking unequal damage. Also you are forgetting CoH crits.

As for inner focus/CoH/SoL, getting 1 second of FSR and using your 3 min CD IF with a relatively cheap spell that just goes to show how easily people can be fooled into thinking something is useful when its not, just because they get a shiny proc.

Also the fact that "you have had no trouble" inserting free flash heals in your CoH spam sequence, does not mean they are actually doing anything. Are you quite sure that the flash heals you insert are necessary? That is exactly what I am talking about, when I say people only look at whether they are getting any procs and not at what the procs do.

Some examples where SoL performs very poorly is hexlord malacrass and blooboil. Using the procs here has very strong negative impact on HPS for a negligible increase in HPM.


The other main advantage of SoL, similar to the paladin talent Infusion of Light, is that it gives us (another) instant cast heal. If you're moving out of <insert AE effect here, i.e. FIRE>, and you CoH the group around you, and get a SoL proc, you can hit the person with the lowest health for some immediate coverage. It's a drastic increase in HpS to the lowest person when considered against casting another CoH. Obviously you do more total overall healing by casting another CoH, assuming there are targets to hit. But that lowest person might have already died.

Now, you could easily argue for a PW:S. But that costs mana. So when it comes to comparing the two, I'd much rather use a SoL'd Flash Heal than a PW:S.

Yes, it breaks the flow of chain-casting CoH on the raid. But as we've stated time and time again, there is No More Chain Casting CoH. You can't sustain it. You shouldn't be doing it. And if you're not chain-casting, there's worlds of time to fit a free Flash Heal in there.

Last week, I got 178 procs of SoL over our BT clear, most on trash. And it was tremendously useful. CoH a group, Flash the lowest. By that point, the other CoH and CHeals hit, and the group is topped up.

It's a useful talent. It's worth taking. It's better than a lot of alternatives. I'd sooner drop Healing Prayers and Holy Reach than Surge of Light now. It's not totally about efficiency. It's about tools in our toolbox. When we just got an expansion with no meaningful new spells for Holy, it's time to look at new procs and talents and see how we can use them effectively (obviously Disc got Penance; different world). SoL, IHC, Inner Focus all add up to OO5SR regen. It's the new Clearcast+IF, only a lot more likely to happen because of the nature of CoH (6 targets, independent 20%+ chance to crit on each one, 50% chance on crit, etc, etc).


Alright I will give you that its useful to have an extra instant in some fights. However you really to use SoL at least once every 15 seconds for it to be worth taking.

178 procs over a BT clear, is actually very unimpressive. Assuming you used 50% which is a very tall order and 60min total fight time (which is very reasonable), its something like 1 proc every 40 seconds, or 40odd mp5. I call that very underwhelming.

Why where the procs useful. Do you mean to say that people would have died if you did not have it? Are you sure that casting another instant like PoM would not have had the exact same effect?

#58 Xiv

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 01:47 AM

SoL is great for cheating the FSR without slacking on raid healing.

After using your first proc and while out of the FSR, a new SoL (generated through PoM that jumps like a charm) can proc while you use hymn of hope. Add inner focus + some aoe heal and you proc another SoL which you can use to stay out the FSR as well.

Thats a lot of mana gain.

#59 JustNalkara

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 02:05 AM

I have a question pertaining to the Discipline spec that you posted Constantius. I have always considered Power Infusion and Pain Suppression to be pvp talents with very few pve applicable purposes. I was just wondering what makes these talents useful in WotLK, if you could give some examples on how to use them in a raid and why those points arent better spent elsewhere.

#60 typobox

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 06:55 AM

I have a question pertaining to the Discipline spec that you posted Constantius. I have always considered Power Infusion and Pain Suppression to be pvp talents with very few pve applicable purposes. I was just wondering what makes these talents useful in WotLK, if you could give some examples on how to use them in a raid and why those points arent better spent elsewhere.


I really don't see where else you'd even spend those points. There's really not anything left in the Discipline tree, and getting anything useful in Holy requires moving more than just those two points. Power Infusion can be a nice boost to have for DPS check fights, especially if it's timed with cooldowns/Heroism. Pain Suppression can be used to mitigate predictable damage bursts that come at inconvenient times, as a sort of preemptive emergency button.




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