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The Holy Paladin Guide for WotLK


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#2241 Melnor

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:27 PM

For your first point, you need a lot more statistical evidence then that to disprove SS not increasing crit rate. The bonus crit only lasts as long as the damage absorb shield is up, so if due to fight mechanics the shield drops almost immediately after being applied it can have a very low impact on FoL crit rates. You would have to perform a comprehensive analysis of the amount of FoL crits and non-crits while the absorb shield is up. Even with that you would need a much larger sample size then just one fight. This can be very easily tested on your own though with the new Divine Guardian talent and fighting mobs that do trivial damage, since you will have 100% uptime on the absorb proc. I also noticed that you had two Pallies casting SS on one target, and since they don't stack (they share ICD), it can obscure the results even more.

Your second point is not true either. The reason why it healed for so much is because your tank had Guardian Spirit at the time, which increases all healing received by 40%.



Regarding the SS not adding bonus crit testing. An easy test is to just get naked and shield yourself and have something proc the shield. I'm not sure what a paladin's crit rate is completely unbuffed but it should yield a good enough answer to tell that SS crit bonus is or isn't bugged.

#2242 Ghon

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:03 PM

Hello, well I have been playing with a mixed style of Healing using FoL, HL and HS depending on the situation since 3.1 and its actually working pretty good, I don’t see any point arguing which one is better between HL spam, staking as much int as you can, or FoL spaming since you can regulate how much mana you will use in a fight, changing between them and Having a lot more spell power, crit and a good mana pool average, I’m using all the spell power enchants and a lot of gems with +int, I have 2464sp(including trinket stacks), 38.56% crit, 375 haste, 22k mana pool, and 140 mp5, with FoL, HL and SoL Glyph.

1) Judging by that stats what do you think is better?, 3% crit from Sanctity of battle or 3% more healing from Divinity since I’m using 2 points already on it, I would love to have those 2 extra talents to complete it but there is no way, did someone thought about it before? Can you tell me which one is better?

2) is Divine Sacrifice worth the lost of 8% crit? since its a 2min cd and SS will not absorb as much as you can do with all that crit.

#2243 Ariashley

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:09 PM

Edit: double posted in error

#2244 Ariashley

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:14 PM

I didn't heal on the paladin in BC and also didn't raid on it. Sorry if my questions were stupid, but wasn't really trying to make a "point" per se. I meant to be asking whether anyone else had observed similar issues and for someone to point out what mistake I might be making in looking at it. Three different people (one of them a priest) looking at the log didn't notice a Guardian Spirit proc prior to the LoH (and the priest tells me he was looking for it - I know I wasn't).

It wasn't just this raid when I've noticed the issue with SS. I've definitely seen the buff from my SS active (on Dotimers) on a tank and seen a normal (non-crit) flash land on that tank - which shouldn't happen. When/if another paladin's SS procs, my SS proc immediately drops from Dotimers. That could be a weird latency issue I suppose, but I only have about 170ms latency.

I considered the multiple paladins casting SS idea, but I was the only paladin in a 10-man VoA this week and was still not observing more than 44% Flash crit rate (37.44% holy crit rate from gear/talents + 5% from Flash of Light glyph + a little crit from int buffs) healing a warrior tank with sacred shield active. SS had more than a 50% uptime (96 sec out of 3 min - Wow Web Stats). While I am aware that the time period wouldn't meet a statistically significant criteria, when I never observe more than my base buffed crit rate for Flash, it strikes me at least worth asking to find out if anyone else had similar experiences or if I'm just extremely unlucky.

Regarding the SS not adding bonus crit testing. An easy test is to just get naked and shield yourself and have something proc the shield. I'm not sure what a paladin's crit rate is completely unbuffed but it should yield a good enough answer to tell that SS crit bonus is or isn't bugged.


Thanks, I'll take that suggestion. I take it that no one else has noticed a problem with Sacred Shield? Also, at the moment, neither of our Holy Paladins, are specced into Divine Guardian. We have several healers having major frame rate issues in Ulduar and by the 4th attempt on any boss in Ulduar, we paladins have ended up raid healing since we neither one are having frame issues.

#2245 Endoscient

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:59 PM

Sacred Shield is infact working as it should, you can't use your anecdotal evidence if "it doesn't seem like it is critting enough", when there is no way for you to possibly know the actual uptime of the Sacred Shield absorb buff compared to when your FoLs landed. When the servers came up I used my method of fight a trivial mob with Divine Guardian and spamming FoL to test it. Here is the WWS report of it. As you can see it is clear the Sacred Shield is working as it should. I had a 31% normal Flash of Light crit rate (I was my ret spec with Divine Guardian in Holy gear). I got 85% effect crit rate on FoL over 100 casts, which is within an expected random deviation. It is extremely statistically unlikely that I could have received that many crits if Sacred Shield was not working.

#2246 KYA1337

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 11:08 PM

I just tested that, with 17% (naked) holy crit, no FoL glyph.

For 144 flashes i got 103 crits, which computes to ~72% crit - a bit more than expected, but this might be due to the small sample size.

Seems like "onyxia deep breaths more" again.

edit: Got beaten to it.

#2247 Tuftears

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 01:34 AM

I'm trying to figure out how a 10-man raid with 2 paladin healers can handle Hodir's Frozen Blows. Is this pretty much the case where the whole raid needs frost resist gear to help the paladins have a chance to keep up? Party members take 4k every 2 seconds, so 40k over the course of 20 seconds, plus the tank is getting hit for large amounts. The tank'll be wearing full frost resist, that's no problem, but it's the raid damage I'm concerned about.

As I see it, Flash of Light has a 1.5s cast time and heals for 3.8k average. So assuming paladin A beacons the MT, paladin B beacons the lowest health person:

Paladins should be able to get off 4 heals to four different people in their assigned groups in 6 seconds, beacon covers the last person. In that time, each person will have taken 12k damage and been healed for 3.8k. (MT was healed for more, but I'm concerned with the AOE damage here)

Next round. Another 4 heals, another 6 seconds. Now each person has taken 24k damage and been healed for 7.6k, for a net deficit of 16.4k damage.

Third round. Another 4k heals, another 6 seconds. Now each person has taken 36k damage and been healed for 11.4k, for a net deficit of 24.6k damage. This generally spells death for most people.

It looks to me like two paladin healers are incapable of keeping up the heals themselves. Yes, I know, third healer should cover the difference, especially if we get a priest, and maybe if we have the elemental shaman (who usually gets traded off between our runs) he could off-heal for Frozen Blows, but I'm trying to figure if there's a better way to handle this - my aim is to try to get the bosses to be 2-healable in general, but I'm coming up blank for this particular situation.

Is there an obvious solution that I'm missing, besides 'don't bring two holy paladins to heal a 10-man raid'?
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#2248 Endoscient

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 01:47 AM

I'm trying to figure out how a 10-man raid with 2 paladin healers can handle Hodir's Frozen Blows. Is this pretty much the case where the whole raid needs frost resist gear to help the paladins have a chance to keep up? Party members take 4k every 2 seconds, so 40k over the course of 20 seconds, plus the tank is getting hit for large amounts. The tank'll be wearing full frost resist, that's no problem, but it's the raid damage I'm concerned about.

As I see it, Flash of Light has a 1.5s cast time and heals for 3.8k average. So assuming paladin A beacons the MT, paladin B beacons the lowest health person:

Paladins should be able to get off 4 heals to four different people in their assigned groups in 6 seconds, beacon covers the last person. In that time, each person will have taken 12k damage and been healed for 3.8k. (MT was healed for more, but I'm concerned with the AOE damage here)

Next round. Another 4 heals, another 6 seconds. Now each person has taken 24k damage and been healed for 7.6k, for a net deficit of 16.4k damage.

Third round. Another 4k heals, another 6 seconds. Now each person has taken 36k damage and been healed for 11.4k, for a net deficit of 24.6k damage. This generally spells death for most people.

It looks to me like two paladin healers are incapable of keeping up the heals themselves. Yes, I know, third healer should cover the difference, especially if we get a priest, and maybe if we have the elemental shaman (who usually gets traded off between our runs) he could off-heal for Frozen Blows, but I'm trying to figure if there's a better way to handle this - my aim is to try to get the bosses to be 2-healable in general, but I'm coming up blank for this particular situation.

Is there an obvious solution that I'm missing, besides 'don't bring two holy paladins to heal a 10-man raid'?


Protip, if people are dying while you are casting FoL, then you should use HL instead.

#2249 Varuk

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 02:13 AM

I'm trying to figure out how a 10-man raid with 2 paladin healers can handle Hodir's Frozen Blows. Is this pretty much the case where the whole raid needs frost resist gear to help the paladins have a chance to keep up? Party members take 4k every 2 seconds, so 40k over the course of 20 seconds, plus the tank is getting hit for large amounts. The tank'll be wearing full frost resist, that's no problem, but it's the raid damage I'm concerned about.

As I see it, Flash of Light has a 1.5s cast time and heals for 3.8k average. So assuming paladin A beacons the MT, paladin B beacons the lowest health person:

Paladins should be able to get off 4 heals to four different people in their assigned groups in 6 seconds, beacon covers the last person. In that time, each person will have taken 12k damage and been healed for 3.8k. (MT was healed for more, but I'm concerned with the AOE damage here)

Next round. Another 4 heals, another 6 seconds. Now each person has taken 24k damage and been healed for 7.6k, for a net deficit of 16.4k damage.

Third round. Another 4k heals, another 6 seconds. Now each person has taken 36k damage and been healed for 11.4k, for a net deficit of 24.6k damage. This generally spells death for most people.

It looks to me like two paladin healers are incapable of keeping up the heals themselves. Yes, I know, third healer should cover the difference, especially if we get a priest, and maybe if we have the elemental shaman (who usually gets traded off between our runs) he could off-heal for Frozen Blows, but I'm trying to figure if there's a better way to handle this - my aim is to try to get the bosses to be 2-healable in general, but I'm coming up blank for this particular situation.

Is there an obvious solution that I'm missing, besides 'don't bring two holy paladins to heal a 10-man raid'?

Paladins should use Holy Light in any situation where healing is an issue. Also, don't forget haste. Myself, fully raid buffed, I have a 1.1s FoL and a 1.4s HL.

Using the same example, allowing for a bit of lag, you can get 4 HL's off in 6 seconds, each hitting for 10k to 11k. Over the course of 6s people take 12k damage. The deficit is much smaller. I'm not saying it won't necessarily be easy, but with people using health pots and maybe an Avenging Wrath or two it should be doable.

#2250 TimWischmeier

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 09:02 AM

You can additionally use Aura Mastery in conjunction with Frost Resistance Aura to further reduce the incoming damage.

#2251 gcbirzan

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 09:34 AM

I didn't see a definite answer posted, sorry if I missed it.

I did some testing today with the shaman mana spring totem and BoW stacking. Improved on both, normal (10 minute) BoW doesn't stack, but the greater BoW will stack. And it's not only a display bug, it does give you more mp5 (it's easily tested if you get naked, difference between 100 and 200 mp5 is clearly visible).

#2252 Sansei

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:22 AM

I didn't see a definite answer posted, sorry if I missed it.

I did some testing today with the shaman mana spring totem and BoW stacking. Improved on both, normal (10 minute) BoW doesn't stack, but the greater BoW will stack. And it's not only a display bug, it does give you more mp5 (it's easily tested if you get naked, difference between 100 and 200 mp5 is clearly visible).


Exactly what I saw while I was testing, and wrote in my previous post. It was pretty unstable as it sometimes removed my 10 minute BoW, sometime didn't. but the numbers didn't stack in either case. When there was Greater BoW, nothing got removed, an the effect stacked clearly with increasing numbers.

#2253 Guest_AlcapwnedYou_*

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 04:19 PM

First, I want to say thanks to Endoscient and all of the others that contribute to the forum for all the great information. I have learned a lot gleaning over the information here and aim to improve my knowledge of the game.

This being said, this thread is now on the 90th page and has a bit of heft while the original post of the thread hasn't been updated in nearly four months. Could we get some data compilation or a new Holy Paladin WotLK 3.1 thread up to condense some of the base information down?

  • Information outlining the new 3.1 Glyphs and how they pertain to Holy (Glyph of Beacon of Light/Holy Shock). Where do they fit into the picture compared to the old standbys?
  • A weight scale spun up to determine upgrades. For example, how much haste overcomes crit, if ever?
  • Regular gem list with prioritized recommendations. What should we be gemming for?

If this information is already posted somewhere, I do apologize. In contrast to the Prot/Ret threads, this thread is massive in size and core elements should be presented up front.

So in summary, could we briefly discuss the updates that 3.0, and more importantly 3.1, brought to the table and make updates to the original post to reflect this summation of new information?

#2254 anti

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 04:36 PM

It appears that Divine Sacrifice is no longer maintaining its full 10 second duration regardless of absorbed damage any longer while Divine Shield is up.

#2255 Apollion

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 04:50 PM

Responding to your questions in order:

1) Nothing really has changed, our first two glyphs (HL and SoW) are still just as good as they have been. The remaining glyph is between divinity, HS and beacon, when you consider that holy shock is now nerfed to be pretty much only useful while moving, the 1 second less of wait isnt that good. In terms of mana gains, if we take a 10 minute fight, if you cast beacon once every minute you're looking at (Insert) mana spent, once every 1.5 minutes its (insert) so (insert) mana gained. Even in such a long fight, divinity glyph saves more mana.

2) Use rawr, it's pretty much as good as its going to get because for the most part, gearing of the sort you're talking about is variable based on the fight and assignments etc, what might be a required amount of haste for you might not be so important for me if my guild has an extra healer on my tank (they constantly ignore me when I say I can solo heal him hehe). The fact of the matter is, healing is not like DPS where you can min-max a perfect rotation to spam or a perfect gear setup for most every boss fight doing the same thing each time, every boss fight is different for the healer because of swing timers, burst damage, movement etc etc. Never mind the fact that different tanks and different tank setups (do they gem for stam or gem for avoidance) will also have different 'optimal' setups.

3) Always has been and will be gem for intellect if throughput is what you're looking at, same with the previous point, it's partially dependent on the scenario. If its not gemming for throughput, you simply need to have a better understanding of what will change when you gem a certain way instead of having to look it up, it's a lot more intuitive than that.

#2256 Macready

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:09 PM

Hi first time poster and long time reader,

Currently in a guild progressing through Ulduar and I have begun to notice a trend in a lot of holy paladin gear in the instance. First off, I think a lot of people can agree that int and CRIT are pretty important. I mean without crit the HL spam spec just would not work because we would go oom fairly quickly. That all being said, is anyone else confused by the way Blizzard itemized our gear? I see quite a bit of MP5/Haste/SP items which I would not put on over T7.5 or other equivalent or 226 items from previous raids. As far as I can tell, nothing really changed with holy paladins in 3.1 so I am just confused.. Maybe I am missing something but these items seem pretty bad to me. MP5 is still one the last stats we should be caring about, right?

A good example would be the T8.5 gloves compared to the 7.5 ones. In my case, putting on T8.5 gives me some mp5 and MINOR increases in spell power, mana, haste, and stam, but I lose like 1.6% crit. To me, that seems like a fairly large amount of crit lost and not a very smart trade off. The same type of trade off also occurs between T7.5 and T8.5 legs. Perhaps someone who understands the math behind all this stuff, because I don't, can shed some light on the subject?

So in summary, is the haste/SP/MP5 gear really that good for us if we already had the best in slot pre 3.1? By the way, I am fully aware that there are some more traditional haste/crit/SP items in Ulduar, but it still feels like the vast majority is taking on this new MP5 trend which has me confused. Anyways, just please do not list the haste/crit/SP gear to me, I am refering only to the MP5/Haste/SP items. Thank you.

#2257 Pirjo

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:35 PM

In terms of updates. Very little has changed. The first post does need updating though, it was commented a few pages ago it wouldn't happen until after 3.1 went live since things were fluid until then. Probably a new thread in the works.
These are the changes I would make to the first page (probably starting in another thread though):
New Terms:
DSac: Divine Sacrifice
AM: Aura Mastery
4pt(7,8): 4 piece tier bonus

New Glyphs:
Beacon of Light: Yields a 90 second duration on Beacon of Light. It saves less mana than divinity if you use LoH on yourself or another healer, but does spare GCD's in addition to its mana saved.

Holy Shock: Reduces CD on holy shock by 1 sec. Required for pvp. In PvE holy shock usage lowers your overall HPS; therefore the lower CD will typically only benefit heavy movement fights, where you are forced to move for more then 5 seconds.

New Abilities:
Update: Holy Shock:
...Along with Infusion of Light, which makes it so whenever you crit with Holy Shock, your next FoL is instant or your next Holy Light has a 20% higher crit change....

Aura Mastery: Increases the base effect (resistance, armor, ret aura reflected damage, pushback resist) of your current aura and makes effected targets immune to interrupts for 10 seconds. This does not apply to talented effects from auras (6% healing from devo doesn't apply for example). 2 minute CD. Very useful on fights where you have auras that can help resist damage or boss abilities. Interrupt immunity does not apply to some boss encounters.

Divine Sacrifice: This talent is not taken in most PvE builds, but some consider at as it is a pre-req for the talent Divine Guardian. Divine Sacrifice allows you to redirect 30% (40% talented) of damage the raid within 30 yards is taking to yourself. Damage can't exceed 150% of your max health. Will likely result in personal death unless used while bubbled. The rate of transfer can be increased by the talent Divine Guardian

Update: Hand of Sacrifice
The new version of this spell for WotLK is now very useful for PvE. A good button to use to help keep your tank alive when he gets some burst on him. Be careful though, the tank can take a lot of damage which will the be transferred to you. If your tank has BoL on him, it can be useful to just heal yourself while HoS is active so you don't die. The total damage transferred is now capped at 100% of your health. The rate of transfer can be increased by the talent Blessed Hands from 30% to 40%.

Update: Sacred Shield
First I will clarify how SS works, when you cast the spell on someone they gain a 30 second buff. Nothing happens until the target takes damage, when they do they will take the full amount, but will gain a second buff. This new buff will absorb the next 500 + 75% of your Spell Power damage and then expire, while it is active it will also increase the crit rate of FoL by 50%. This 2nd buff lasts a maximum of 6 seconds, and can only occur every 6 seconds. The ICD on the proc is shared between all SS's on the target, so it doesn't stack between multiple Paladins.

Now limited to a single target
, this is most effective on Tanks since they take damage often, but can also be useful on group members if you know they are going to be taking damage more often then every 6 seconds.
Sacred Shield special notes: 4pt8 and Divine Guardian
4pt8 decreases the internal CD to 4 seconds, it should be noted that the duration of the shield effect still lasts 6 seconds. The talent Divine Guardian increases the duration of the buff to 60 seconds, as well as increasing the shield effect duration to up to 12 seconds. It also increases the amount absorbed per shield by 10/20%. If damage is absorbed after the internal CD of sacred shield has expired, a new shield will proc.


[Libram of Tolerance][new libram]
I don't see any situation where I would use these over Renewal. Since I can use the 113 mana I saved on a Holy Light to do a lot more than 265/XXX healing.

Profs
Engineering: update

Specs
PvE typical
51/0/20
51/5/15 (5% crit)
51/5/15 (3% crit PoJ)
51/2/18 (max crit/Divinity)
PvE Divine Sac/Divine Guardian - Lower personal HPS in return for a buffed SS, and a raidwide absorb.
51/17/0+3

X. Frequently Asked Questions
Q: Which is these two items are better for me?
A: Use a theorycrafting tool, it will be able to answer it much better. If for some reason you think it is wrong, post here in detail about why you think it is wrong.

Q: Is t8.5 worth upgrading to yet? Should I break my 4pt7.5?
A: See question above.


Q. Who do I beacon?
A. It is situational... here are some suggestions...
Is there an OT within 40 yards of your healing target, if yes then that is your target typically.
Are you standing by yourself, healing an isolated tank, then you are your beacon target.
Are you a pally who is nearly FFA healing due to having an easy tank healing assignment, then Beacon the MT (this really applies to 10 mans 80% of the time).
Does it seem like there is no constant OT to beacon, the tank is taking tons of damage... well you get to choose! By choosing yourself you get to focus more on healing the tank, or you can pick a melee who is more likely to get hit by aoe since they are typically more bunched up.

Q. Why shouldn't I just always beacon my primary healing target?
A. Beacon isn't a reliable heal, there is a chance you'll get sniped and your tank will receive no heals. There is a chance the person you are healing is not within 40 yards of your tank and your tank will receive no heals. If the tank is taking enough damage, this "missed" heal will cause you to fail at your job.


#2258 Varuk

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:36 PM

Alrighty. I know we're all unhappy with the state of itemization in Ulduar, but after really sitting down and looking at the situation... I'm not worried any more. Two things have changed for me:

1. After a full run-through of Ulduar I never once encountered a situation where mana was an issue that couldn't be solved through tighter play and better DP usage. (Except, obviously, Vezax, but that's entirely different scenario.)

2. After reading through several posts worth of math on the equivalency of Crit and Int compared to MP5 and applying the math within I've determined that the haste/mp5 pieces of ulduar loot have just as much if not more regen than the crit/haste pieces of naxx loot.

As best I can tell, admittedly using other people's maths, in a HL spam situation with 35 HL per minute and 1 DP per minute, 1 Crit Rating is equivalent to .5 MP5 and 1 Intellect is worth .8 MP5. For the purpose of comparing regen, I lowered Intellect to 1 Int = .66 MP5 to compensate for more realistic DP usage such as 2-3 times a fight instead of using on cooldown.

With those weightings, which rely *entirely* on spam-casting, the haste/mp5 pieces of ulduar loot such as and significantly outpace the naxx versions of loot in terms of regen while still providing much needed haste! (Comparing those two to and .) And keep in mind that any time you cast fewer than 35 HLs in 60s the values of crit and int both decrease while the value of MP5 remains static -- so any fight that involves movement (which is basically every single fight in ulduar) or that has a break in cast time (Mimiron, for example) you will find MP5 actually performing equal to if not better than crit on an item point for item point basis.

Even the tier8 haste/mp5 gear is outperforming the t7 haste/crit gear. (Obviously this is not counting the t7 4-piece bonus.)

Will it be enough to make breaking the 4pcT7 bonus worth it? That I cannot say yet. But, for me, if I can manage to remain mana neutral while utilizing these higher iLvl pieces to gain haste then that is enough of a gain for me to wear it. Mana has yet to be an issue for myself in Ulduar, and while this may change with hard-modes, if it does, the good old trusty T7 will still be in the bank ready to slap on for the ridiculous 4pc set bonus. And even then, the majority of hard modes seem to be "kill the boss faster this time!" which doesn't promise to be too straining on mana.

MP5 is still a bad stat. It's still weaker than crit and significantly worse than int. But I'm convinced that it isn't as bad as many people make it out to be, and that the combination of higher item levels and more sockets is making alot of this gear much better than was originally expected.

#2259 Endoscient

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:08 PM

I just made a new thread with updates for 3.1. It contained mostly ability/mechanic updates. I still want to add more about stuff like 4T7 vs 4T8 vs offset pieces, and update the gear section. If you any other suggestion let me know in the new thread!

#2260 Aldriana

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:59 PM

Closed at the request of the thread starter.




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