Jump to content


Photo

Death Knight rune addons: How can we do better?


  • Please log in to reply
294 replies to this topic

#21 Kameril

Kameril

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:15 AM

Janraea, You mean something like this:
Posted Image

I actually like it more than I thought I would.


I really like this one, I might implement something similar. The inside could (optionally) fill up with runic power. I'm curious to see what other ideas come up though.

#22 Dristig

Dristig

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 05:48 AM

I prototyped the stoplight looking one by hacking on Runehero tonight. I like it a lot. Much less distracting than the giant sword but it keeps the features I like and adds the GCD check. I'll probably experiment with some more layouts definately vertical and horizontal without alternating sides. I'm not sure I'm good enough at Lua to tackle the radial stuff. I can only move along X and Y at this point.

Posted Image
Posted Image

#23 level12wizard

level12wizard

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:09 PM

The stoplight is kind of interesting, but all these things with big moving parts make me worry for screen real estate on my non-widescreen setup. Not to mention finding room for it somewhere that I actually look at it all and it doesn't horribly obstruct my view of the game.

I came up with this, I don't even know if it's possible with WoW (and if it is how much resource it would eat up), but it's worth a shot.

Very rough mockup. The basic idea is that used runes become a very small and very transparent (almost non-existant) shape, and grow larger over the cooldown. However, they keep the same transparency until a set time (say, 1.5 seconds before they're up), to indicate being almost up, and then return to being full when they're up.

Posted Image

As a side note, I seem to like pairing UFs together as opposed to the orderly but illogical BBFFUU

#24 Dristig

Dristig

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 01:42 PM

I was thinking about this some more and I think it will probably come down to preference with 2 groups of addons. Ones that move the rune like Runehero and ones that move a bar/timer like runemaster.

level12wizard, one of the things I don't like about that style setup is that it is hard to tell how close to activation the rune is especially when 2 are close to each other. That is why I like moving the runes themselves or using bars. Something that can be quickly visually measured seems important.

I tried a version of the stoplight with both runes going to one side. It created an interesting side effect. when you hit runes of the same color back to back it visually shows you how close to the GCD you got (the space between runes). This is a byproduct of runes being on the same line. It improves the rhythm feel of the ui in a very interesting way. I'm curious how close to guitar hero you could get with an ideal rotation being the "song".

#25 dr_AllCOM3

dr_AllCOM3

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 985 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:24 PM

Most of your ideas are too complicated. Your eyes have to search for the moving runes every time you want to know their cooldown. There is already a lot going on while raiding. Sure, it looks cool. I've tested some concepts myself and something simple, quiet and compact is the best. Even the standard bar is better than a moving or spaced addon.

#26 Xelopheris

Xelopheris

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 164 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:41 PM

It would be interesting for an addon to display runes the same way players see them -- in pairs. Two FU pairs and a BB pair.

#27 rhea

rhea

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 120 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:22 PM

Going off topic here a bit sorry.

Is there a way to code this rune addon without access to beta or DK? (and see the effects ingame)
Wouldn't like to install 10gigs only because of it.
Would be nice to get to do it now rather than when I'm supposed to level up...

#28 Dristig

Dristig

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:41 PM

Doc, you're wrong about the moving rune alone being too complicated. That isn't how you process information or use the UI. All you have to do is look at the space in the middle where runes become available. I think the original Runehero has too much visual noise but that is largely the fault of the sword background not the movement. The reason to use movement is because your peripheral vision sees movement more easily than anything else. No one expects the player to track the rune across the screen the entire time. All you need to know is when it is ready and nearly ready and to quickly see the upcoming pattern. That is where the Guitar Hero style ideas come from.

#29 Janraea

Janraea

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 399 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:44 PM

Most of your ideas are too complicated. Your eyes have to search for the moving runes every time you want to know their cooldown. There is already a lot going on while raiding. Sure, it looks cool. I've tested some concepts myself and something simple, quiet and compact is the best. Even the standard bar is better than a moving or spaced addon.


The reason a lot of us are proposing systems with moving runes is that we play games like guitar hero, rock band, and ddr, all of which drill the reflex of reading moving lists of objects into you. I have a VERY easy time reading that runehero output, even though the background is distracting, the edges are hard to find, and the runes are too big. I do prefer the ones where the runes are moving in the same direction (or very close to it), for the reasons you list.

#30 Nephthys

Nephthys

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 68 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:49 PM

The basic idea is that used runes become a very small and very transparent (almost non-existant) shape, and grow larger over the cooldown. However, they keep the same transparency until a set time (say, 1.5 seconds before they're up), to indicate being almost up, and then return to being full when they're up.


I think having three visibility states might be enough information for me: Is it ready? Will it be ready within the next GCD? Is it more than 1 GCD away from being ready? Anything more than that might easily be lost in all the activity of raid/party combat. As long as I can easily tell if a rune is a death rune at all states. I was working on a prettier/more flexible successor to SimpleRune but having trouble with point 3 in the OP. Perhaps this would be a solution.

Dristig's looks like it was done on a DK, but I thought beta was over? Or have the realms not gone down yet?

I was thinking about this some more and I think it will probably come down to preference with 2 groups of addons. Ones that move the rune like Runehero and ones that move a bar/timer like runemaster.


I think a 3rd preference would be something with no moving parts, like what level12wizard, Aeryn, and SimpleRune suggest. The parallel here might be to a rogue combo point bar, only DK combo points are regenerating resource mechanic instead of energy/runic power.

#31 Nephthys

Nephthys

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 68 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:59 PM

The reason a lot of us are proposing systems with moving runes is that we play games like guitar hero, rock band, and ddr, all of which drill the reflex of reading moving lists of objects into you.


This is an important point -- experience and expectations play a big role in processing information. That style might be more difficult for me because I haven't played those games so much. And when I did, I got frustrated that it didn't feel like playing a real guitar.

It'd be fun to make a rune addon that basically WAS guitar hero. Basically bring to life the interface from Blizzard's april fool's joke that bards were the new hero class.

#32 Kjallstrom

Kjallstrom

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 33 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:27 PM

This is an important point -- experience and expectations play a big role in processing information. That style might be more difficult for me because I haven't played those games so much. And when I did, I got frustrated that it didn't feel like playing a real guitar.


It's interesting to see game UIs converge on "standard" interfaces. Interface innovation is really risky - if you come up with a cool new concept, you win, but if not, you'll get a lot of users complaining about how it's not like Game X. FPS UIs have become relatively standard (although more minimalist recently), as have the default UIs of MMOs (minimap upper right, abilities bottom bar, character upper left, party on the left, etc.).

The fact that The Blizz supports the level of UI customization in WoW is great... and you can tell they consider the addon developer community an experimental base for ideas. Consider how they've integrated a form of Scrolling Combat Text into the default UI, or support for a guild calendar.

I don't have the art skills to mockup my description above, but I wanted to reiterate my agreement with the "runehero" paradigm mentioned in several posts.

Radial is nifty looking, but I think in actual usage estimating the relative distance along radials is harder than comparing things falling in straight lines.

#33 Dristig

Dristig

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:34 PM

New animations: WoW Stuff
I'm going to code "6-pack" in game tonight.

I added some more movies to the blog page I posted.

I was able to log into Northrend beta realm last night fyi.

#34 Kameril

Kameril

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 08:09 PM

New animations:
I'm going to code "6-pack" in game tonight.
WoW Stuff

I was able to log into Northrend beta realm last night fyi.


I was going to make a quick prototype of the radial idea to see how it really performs, but no realms are up. None are even listed now. I guess we'll have to fake it on live.

#35 madpeon

madpeon

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 32 posts

Posted 05 November 2008 - 08:58 PM

One suggestion I'd make is to have the rune display order be customizable.

For instance, your typical Unholy rotation is PS -> IT -> SS -> BS -> BS -> RP then SS -> SS -> SS -> RP.

It makes sense to me that you'd want to display runes so they match your rotation. That way not only are you viewing when rune cooldowns are up, but also an indicator of where you are in your rotation.

So, using the above rotation, we'd want to see runes displayed as U -> F -> U -> F -> B -> B, regardless of whether its in a circle, columns, or rows.

The easiest way would be to just make this option totally customizable, that way you the user can alter the order to match whatever rotation they prefer.

#36 lichdawg

lichdawg

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 46 posts

Posted 06 November 2008 - 12:06 AM

guys, your design are nice looking but might need some tweaking. Remember few principles of UI design.

. Keep it simple:
In one quick glance one need to be able to see how many runes of each type are avaible and how long before any used ones will be available.
The design of rune hero with colored circles is simple and effective because:
there is a are with 6 circles and one can see which ones are ready, and which ones are racing to be ready.
showing the time before they are ready is unecessary: it is easier to see visually how long before the circle is going to cross the line that it is to read a 4-5 seconds countdown.

Any design that uses changing colors/transparency wont be effective because the mind will not be able to determine more easily how long before a rune is available and this design will fail under some light/resolution screens.

1: Runes can be circle or squares

2: there should be an easy to see "race" type of this runes to display time before availability of the actual rune. The mind can easily spot in a straight line the winner of a race, it is easier to determine than in a bend (this is why horce races etc finish in a straight line and not a bend).

3: for available runic power any design that shows a simple figure filling up is the easier one to see with a quick glance. instead of a complicated design such as a runic sword.

#37 Xephos

Xephos

    Space Lion

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 06 November 2008 - 12:42 AM

I think that some of the ideas in this thread are absolutely beautiful.

One thing I'd agree that would be really great is having three boxes linked to the cooldowns on diseases on your current target. Maybe they could simply be above the specific runes associated with them - i.e. frost fever above the cooldown on frost runes. Or perhaps someone way cleverer than me can find some way to integrate that into the visual rune countdown.

#38 level12wizard

level12wizard

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 06 November 2008 - 05:21 AM

Although the 'stoplight' and 'six-pack' designs are basically the same, spacing them out just a bit with 'six-pack' seems more effective. Your design is more effective than RuneHero because it provides a better point of reference for when it will be up, and indicating that it will be up next GCD.



The DisqoDice/ShockAndAwe bars that Doc has seem pretty effective too, they follow the same "horse race" principle. In his original post he had the runes sorting based on how close they were to being up. I thought that was very cool. Was it too difficult to properly implement, or did you decide that it was too confusing?



And out of curiosity, about how much KiB and cpu are we looking at with these designs? I like keeping things lightweight, and I certainly wouldn't want to have to install a bunch of extra Ace libs just to run my rune addon, though thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case.

#39 Oke

Oke

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 06 November 2008 - 05:52 AM

Personally I think just a simple filling/depleting type setup for the runes would be the clearest. With a clear point at 1.5s (or 2 to be nice to people with higher lat) and an attached power bar with a clear 40, 50, 60rp marker.

Something like...
Posted Image
(please forgive the crappy MSPaint image :( )

#40 tayedaen

tayedaen

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 27 posts

Posted 06 November 2008 - 11:36 AM

So, using the above rotation, we'd want to see runes displayed as U -> F -> U -> F -> B -> B, regardless of whether its in a circle, columns, or rows.

I really like this idea. It makes it easier to follow the rotation, which is always good.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users