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#221 Hunglo

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 08:31 PM

For now it looks like for (after cap):

Unholy: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>AP>Haste>ApR

Blood: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>ApR>AP>Haste

Frost: 1WDPS>>>STR>CRIT>AP>APR>Haste

If i can get the time I'll try to post some actual numbers.


Methods, where would AGI be for each spec. I'm under the assumption that AGI is at least better than the worst stat (ApR for unholy, Haste for the others). But would it fit between the next stat up?

I.E.,
Unholy: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>AP>AGI>Haste>ApR

Blood: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>ApR>AGI>AP>Haste

Frost: 1WDPS>>>STR>CRIT>AP>AGI>APR>Haste

Or would it remain only better than the worst stat? Also, I'm looking for your latest spreadsheet and have been unable to find it. I would think such a great tool would be on the first page.

#222 methods

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 09:10 PM

Methods, where would AGI be for each spec. I'm under the assumption that AGI is at least better than the worst stat (ApR for unholy, Haste for the others). But would it fit between the next stat up?

I.E.,
Unholy: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>AP>AGI>Haste>ApR

Blood: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>ApR>AGI>AP>Haste

Frost: 1WDPS>>>STR>CRIT>AP>AGI>APR>Haste

Or would it remain only better than the worst stat? Also, I'm looking for your latest spreadsheet and have been unable to find it. I would think such a great tool would be on the first page.


I haven't added agility into my calculations totally yet so I can't give a full answer on that. You are right that it will be quite low on the priorities.

My sheets haven't been posted yet aside from a few PMs to other 'tool makers' on these boards. The reason is they (my sheets) are a shameful mess and are not very user friendly yet. When I have a less busy schedule I'll get the kinks out and have a presentable sheet posted. Meanwhile Tzenes' sheet is slightly different but could give you very similar answers by manually changing variables and recording the difference. I think we're all still working with approximates anyway.

#223 Nethris

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 09:57 PM

Methods, where would AGI be for each spec. I'm under the assumption that AGI is at least better than the worst stat (ApR for unholy, Haste for the others). But would it fit between the next stat up?

I.E.,
Unholy: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>AP>AGI>Haste>ApR

Blood: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>ApR>AGI>AP>Haste

Frost: 1WDPS>>>STR>CRIT>AP>AGI>APR>Haste

Or would it remain only better than the worst stat? Also, I'm looking for your latest spreadsheet and have been unable to find it. I would think such a great tool would be on the first page.


Agi might beat both APR and Haste for Unholy and Frost, putting it above AP for blood seems unlikely to me - or it will be better than AP for frost as well, as it should affect frost strike but not death coil, and a "standard" frost rotation for theory crafting doesn't use howling blast to my knowledge. I assume those rankings were for one point of each? AP doesn't get the same scaling as STR of course, but would 2 AP beat 1 ApR for blood for example (as that's closer to the same item budget cost so more likely to be the approximate tradeoff we see)?

#224 Septus

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 02:50 PM

1. If blood plague is down, plague strike.
2. If frost fever is down, icy touch.
3. If unholy blight is down, unholy blight.
4. Sourge strike.
5. Blood strike.
6. If unholy blight is up, death coil.
7. Delay.


I pulled this from the other DK thread. For Unholy, shouldn't this dps priority system be modified to place Death Coil right below Scourge Strike, given enough rp(or should it be more than 40, so as to leave some extra for the new UB)? I thought runic power usage trumped everything but applying diseases.

#225 Nacht

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 03:05 PM

Has anyone checked if the Glyph of death strike is still bugged? It was reported on the beta forum a while back and I haven't seen any mention of it being fixed.


I checked yesterday in Ebon Hold, and Glyph of Death Strike does appear to be working with Rage of Rivendare.

#226 crimsonsentinel

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 06:06 PM

I pulled this from the other DK thread. For Unholy, shouldn't this dps priority system be modified to place Death Coil right below Scourge Strike, given enough rp(or should it be more than 40, so as to leave some extra for the new UB)? I thought runic power usage trumped everything but applying diseases.


It depends on the situation. It's ok to cap RP if it means you're doing something that does more damage than death coil. RP is only there to serve as another resource source to increase your dps. If doing blood strike instead of deal coil means more dps, then it's a good idea to do so. Of course you also want to make sure that you have 60RP available when unholy blight goes down as well.

The main question here is the damage of blood strike vs. death coil. However, you also have to consider that the quicker you use that blood rune, the sooner you open up a death rune, allowing sooner usage of scourge strike. Therefore, even if blood strike does less damage than death coil, using up that blood rune may wind up being higher dps overall.

#227 Septus

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 06:38 PM

Well I understand that concept, but I thought the whole reason people have been recommending RP usage before runes, was because using RP abilities before you cap out, resulted in higher dps.

I certainly would have been thinking of using death coil before blood strike, but I thought that death coil was also supposed to be used before scourge strike, if you're in danger of capping RP.

#228 dalavita

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 08:14 PM

While I do think this might get sorted out at 80 when I have all the skills and talents spent.

My frost spec rotation is pretty awkward when grinding, I end up hitting 100 runic power so easily due to a bunch of talents and the icy touch glyph, and I don't have full points in blood of the north yet, 2/5.

Should I be death coiling (soon to get frost strike/be replaced by frost strike) instead of blood striking whenever I have 100 runic power in the rotation? It does do more damage per GCD than blood strike.

Also, my HB hits harder than my Obliterate, although it crits less often. Is this simply a scaling issue of lowlevel DK with gear?

I understand that the rotation is made for raiding which means butchery won't give me that constant amount of runic power, so that might be why it's always so high.

#229 Daedalix

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 09:15 PM

Are you going into the fight with RP? (Likely). Since you're grinding and stuff is dying fast, you don't have much of a rotation. You should RP-dump before you get to 100. Frost Strike is a huge % of dps, so that's how Frost works. You always build RP pretty fast and don't have a massive RP-dump like Blood and Unholy do. Runic Power Mastery is not a bad talent to have, when you have the talent points to blow. Holding back on BSs is better than wasting RP. You're also missing, which pushes back your rotation and you end up generating more RP than normal.

At 80 you'll have a rotation and will be able to dump RP accordingly. Two DCs/FSs should be enough to dump your RP.

HB hitting harder than OB is because your weapon isn't very good. Your Atk Power will scale slower than your weapon, so OB will eventually overtake HB but just barely. HB is also on a 6 second cooldown so you can't spam it twice (assuming you have Death Runes). I don't know your build but I also assume you don't have ALL the talents that OB benefits from. It gets more talent-love than HB does.

I'm Unholy and I'm also awash in RP and often open a fight with two DCs. That's the challenge of the DK. Utilizing our resources appropriately.

#230 Nicolai

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 09:37 PM

All the rotations in the original post have PS>IT.

I'm assuming that some builds (heavy Frost DPS for instance), may go IT>PS? Aside from IT hitting harder because of Glacial Rot, is there a reason to have PS first? Does the 5 expertise from Tundra Stalker outweigh this benefit?

After the first rotation it shouldn't matter all that much, but aside from Parchwerk style tank and spanks there is quite a bit of movement in raids these days. If both my diseases do fall off my target, which has priority to get back up first?

#231 dalavita

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 09:52 PM

I try to pull with death coil to dump as much RP as I can before I start the initial rotation.

I'm going for a Frost PVP spec to level with, which isn't to far away from the talent tree stated in the OPs post.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is how it's going to look like.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is what it looks like at 63 as of typing.

I went into death knights thinking I'd be runic power starved or struggling to keep it up, which might be the case at 80 raiding and PVP, which I'm making the build for, so some talents might be placed in the wrong place for PVE grinding (Chill of the Grave). Well, it's an experimental build and I'm learning as I go anyway.

As far as Obliterate vs Howling blast goes.

At first it does look like Ob gets more talent love, but HB gets some nice things of its own as well.

Exclusive talents for boosting the DPS of the skill: Every other skill, both benefit the same way.
Ob: Subversion (+9% critical), Annihilation (+3% critical), Rime (15% critical)
Hb: Black Ice (+30% damage), Glacier Rot (+10% damage)

From a DPS-standpoint, when will it be worth putting glyph of Obliterate up, are there some calculations for when the extra weapon damage overtakes the bonus disease damage?

Something I'm questioning is the 2 points I have in vicious strikes. The main use of it is to enhance my death strike healing for PVP and Grinding.

#232 Janraea

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 10:16 PM

All the rotations in the original post have PS>IT.

I'm assuming that some builds (heavy Frost DPS for instance), may go IT>PS? Aside from IT hitting harder because of Glacial Rot, is there a reason to have PS first? Does the 5 expertise from Tundra Stalker outweigh this benefit?

After the first rotation it shouldn't matter all that much, but aside from Parchwerk style tank and spanks there is quite a bit of movement in raids these days. If both my diseases do fall off my target, which has priority to get back up first?


The main reason is that, for any build with much frost in it, IT hits much harder than PS, so giving the 10% bonus to it is superior. The 5 expertise doesn't depend on diseases, it's permanent.

#233 Neddie

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 03:34 AM

Finally got around to starting my DK. Man, what a fun class, and I feel massively OP at 58, with an unholy spec, pet out, and bone armor up, I was doing 590 DPS on the training dummies. Outside of Ebon Hold I easily soloed the Tyr's Hand elites, and even too 2 at a time without too much difficulty.

Two things I've noticed though:

The rotations for unholy (and I think the other specs) have plague strike first and icy touch second. There's no real reason to use your unholy rune before your frost rune, since you need them both up later for scourge strikes, etc. Since Icy Touch is a ranged attack it makes sense to me to have it first as a pull/cycle start. Any reason why not?

The other thing that I think should be noted in the massive post that starts the thread (great job again zurm and illundai) is that the cycles listed aren't super tight. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong when I was waiting for runes to come up for me to use Scourge Strike. Half a second I can understand, but when I was waiting for a GCD or so sometimes I thought maybe I was messing something up. It took me doing a bunch of "napkin math" to convince myself it was right, that the diseases were going to last for all 3 scourge strikes in the second half of the rotation, etc.

The real rotation is something more along the lines of:

IT (0s) -> PS (1.5s) -> BS (3s) -> BS (4.5s) -> SS (6s) -> UB or DC (7.5s)-> wait for runes ->
SS (9.5s) -> wait for runes -> SS (12.5s) -> SS (14s) -> DC as many times as you can (2x at lvl 58)

It may be obvious to ppl who have been playing DKs for a while, but the pauses there threw me off because I thought DKs were very much GCD bound.

#234 Aeryn

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 03:45 AM

Small error in the OP:

At the moment, the only remotely helpful minor glyph for frost that hasn't been mentioned is Glyph of Blood Tap and that just allows you to get an extra BS, Pestilence or Blood Boil in there every minute or so.


This is from the Frost section. As Frost you'd want to use a death rune for a frost ability like Icy Touch or Unbreakable Armor, not a blood one.

Hm, come to think of it, it might be useful to macro Blood Tap into UA (or Bone Shield for that matter), to reduce the chance that there's no rune available when one is needed most.

#235 zelman

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 03:50 AM

... The rotations for unholy (and I think the other specs) have plague strike first and icy touch second. There's no real reason to use your unholy rune before your frost rune, since you need them both up later for scourge strikes, etc. Since Icy Touch is a ranged attack it makes sense to me to have it first as a pull/cycle start. Any reason why not? ...


Glacier Rot and Rage of Rivendare are the main reasons, for a blood spec without glacier rot I could see them being interchangeable. Definitely a habit I'll have to break at 80 cause I do the same thing as you (DC > IT > PS when I'm farming).

#236 dalavita

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 10:32 AM

The rotations for unholy (and I think the other specs) have plague strike first and icy touch second. There's no real reason to use your unholy rune before your frost rune, since you need them both up later for scourge strikes, etc. Since Icy Touch is a ranged attack it makes sense to me to have it first as a pull/cycle start. Any reason why not?


You're a lot more GCD-bound when you're not Unholy, since unholy is the only talent that has Epidemic, increasing the time of your diseases by 6 seconds, making it a lot easier to get in hits before they fade.

Sometimes, if I did long pulls with a 30 yard icy touch and then applied plague strike, icy touch would end up fading way before plague strike, which meant that I'd have to refresh it mid-rotation.

With 12 second diseases, you could get in an extra Obliterate right at the end of the disease times if you don't save any global cooldowns because the diseases last two seconds longer than their runes take to cool down.

PS, IT, Ob, (BS, BS, DC) until the disease runes were ready, Ob right before the diseases ran out, the prior Ob runes got ready:
PS, IT, etc.

I haven't used this rotation in a while, getting death runes might have had something to do with it. (Not to mention it's way to closed. 0 error allowed)

#237 Siawn

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 04:03 PM

The rotations for unholy (and I think the other specs) have plague strike first and icy touch second. There's no real reason to use your unholy rune before your frost rune, since you need them both up later for scourge strikes, etc. Since Icy Touch is a ranged attack it makes sense to me to have it first as a pull/cycle start. Any reason why not?


For maximizing dps, like one of the posts above points out, our talents encourage us to open with PS and then cast IT. When leveling, however, the difference is not worth worrying about. IT is amazing for getting the tag on contested mobs, which is just about everything in Northrend at this point. DC isn't bad for pulling, but since it is a bolt spell, there is the potential to lose the tag while it is mid-flight.

#238 Nethris

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 06:52 PM

The real rotation is something more along the lines of:

IT (0s) -> PS (1.5s) -> BS (3s) -> BS (4.5s) -> SS (6s) -> UB or DC (7.5s)-> wait for runes ->
SS (9.5s) -> wait for runes -> SS (12.5s) -> SS (14s) -> DC as many times as you can (2x at lvl 58)

It may be obvious to ppl who have been playing DKs for a while, but the pauses there threw me off because I thought DKs were very much GCD bound.


Blood tends to be the really GCD bound spec during the times it isn't building RP for DRW/garg. That said, it might be worth mentioning that you could fit a DC between the 9.5s SS and the 12.5s SS, or that in a sustained fight like a raid you could switch disease refreshing to using your death runes, which would let the rotation be a bit tighter.

Glacier Rot and Rage of Rivendare are the main reasons, for a blood spec without glacier rot I could see them being interchangeable. Definitely a habit I'll have to break at 80 cause I do the same thing as you (DC > IT > PS when I'm farming).


The fact that if they fall off in a raid that the 1.5s "extra" seconds on your rotation you can gain if you aren't already next to the boss when you start the rotation again may offset some of that dps gain as well - I believe the current math was done assuming you could use either at that time, but if you're in melee range to begin with, your diseases falling off should be pretty rare on a long enough fight that you're worrying about a rotation I'd assume.

You're a lot more GCD-bound when you're not Unholy, since unholy is the only talent that has Epidemic, increasing the time of your diseases by 6 seconds, making it a lot easier to get in hits before they fade.

Sometimes, if I did long pulls with a 30 yard icy touch and then applied plague strike, icy touch would end up fading way before plague strike, which meant that I'd have to refresh it mid-rotation.

With 12 second diseases, you could get in an extra Obliterate right at the end of the disease times if you don't save any global cooldowns because the diseases last two seconds longer than their runes take to cool down.

PS, IT, Ob, (BS, BS, DC) until the disease runes were ready, Ob right before the diseases ran out, the prior Ob runes got ready:
PS, IT, etc.

I haven't used this rotation in a while, getting death runes might have had something to do with it. (Not to mention it's way to closed. 0 error allowed)


As frost (30 yard icy touch), if you have rime, etc, while grinding/leveling it shouldn't be that big a loss to refresh icy touch even right after the mob gets to you I'd imagine - doubly so if you happen to start the fight with at least one death rune up so you're replacing a BS rather than sacrificing an OB - though non-elites die so fast I doubt it's worth worrying about either way, as IT + PS + 2xBS + OB should at least come close to kill the mob, and you have the RP for at least one FS.




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