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#21 Dieseltank

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 03:36 PM

Add obliterate to the abbreviation section, OB.

#22 tedv

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 03:56 PM

6.1.5. Agility

A Death Knight needs 62.5 Agility to gain 1% Crit.
Furthermore, Agility only increases melee crit chance. Crit Rating is always preferred over Agility just because Crit Rating is better budgeted than Agility and because Crit Rating also grants Spell crit.


It's kind of a silly point, but Agility also increases armor, which in turn increases attack power through Bladed Armor. Each point of agility adds 2 armor which is 1/18th of an attack power. If you end up with around 500 agility while raid buffed in DPS gear at 80, then this will account for another 27 attack power. It's still not something you'd ever stack, but it's not totally meaningless.

Also, sorry for the bit of Grammar Nazi, but "effect" is a noun that's caused by the application of the verb "affect". Example:

Correct: Agility affects your armor.
Incorrect: Agility effects your armor.

Correct: One effect of agility is that it increases your armor.
Incorrect: One affect of agility is that it increases your armor.

#23 Illundai

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 03:59 PM

I need to get around to writing the Agility section though, it was pretty late when I wrote that portion up (as you can notice).

This link was posted in the other thread, they seem pretty accurate, so unless anyone sees any mistakes on there, I'll add it.

#24 Flamingcloud

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:04 PM

I added ARP to my sheets and have come up with these rough numbers for a naxx gear DK:

1ARP to AP
[Table="head"]Stat|Unholy|Blood|Frost
1ARP|0.9727|1.8892|1.2623

Again, remember this is just a best guess and may have some errors in the sheets still. That being said, Blood looks like it has another favorite stat. It's interesting that haste is worse than ARP for unholy even.


Just to confirm, this is assuming sundered/faerie fire boss mob correct? Also I am not sure if armor pen is applied first or last, I assume last which would decrease the value if you assumed first. I am pretty surprised how high the numbers are I didn't think it would be better than expertise & crit for blood/frost.

#25 Amroo

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:11 PM

While Haste is never a particularly desirable stat for Death Knights, we must remember how it effects their GCD. Because of dense rotations additional haste rating can reduce the strain on a player and allow for a larger margin of error. However, stacking too much of it is also not recommended, due to its low value.


Has that been changed? I remember haste not affecting our GCD and I think it is still how it works, the only thing that decreses it would be Unholy Presence.

#26 joypunk

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:15 PM

Thanks for the post, Illundai.

Sections 4.1 was very confusing for me, mostly because of the way it is worded. I'm pretty sure I understand the rune cooldown mechanic, but the way the section is written make me wonder if I really do.

<<snip>> Runes have a 10 second regen time. However, if you do not use your regenerated rune as soon as it comes up, it will activate a timer (up to 2 seconds, is the current theory) which will count as the Rune being used. Think of it like this:

[table="head"]Time|Ability|Regen time|Runes
00:00:00|Icy Touch|10s|BBFUU
00:10:00||0s|BBFFUU
00:11:50|Icy Touch|10s|BBFUU
00:20:00||2s|BBFFUU

The second Frost Rune had a 8.5s reactivation time.
<<snip>>


I would word this section as follows:

Runes have a 10 second regen timer. However, if you do not use your regenerated rune as soon as it comes up, it will activate a timer (up to 2 seconds, is the current theory) which will be taken off of the normal 10 second timer.

[table="head"]Time|Ability|Regen time|Runes
00:00:00|Icy Touch|10s|BBFUU
00:10:00||0s|BBFFUU
00:11:50|Icy Touch|10s|BBFUU
00:20:00||-1.5s|BBFFUU

Because you waited 1.5s after the rune was available to use the second frost rune, it's regen time was reduced to 8.5s.


I think the Regen time in the 4th row should either be "-1.5s" or "8.5s". Since you waited 1.5s to use the rune, the regen time is reduced by 1.5s, which is more accurate than putting "2s" in there. (The "2s" in that cell doesn't make any sense to me... you didn't wait 2s to use the rune.)

Does that make sense to others, or am I the only one that doesn't care for the wording here?

#27 Illundai

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:16 PM

I was under the impression Haste would reduce the GCD on Icy Touch, Howling Blast and Death Coil.

I could be wrong, however.

Edit: To the above, yeah that does seem awfully odd and confusing. I'll get that changed.

#28 Zurm

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:17 PM

It's kind of a silly point, but Agility also increases armor, which in turn increases attack power through Bladed Armor.


I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that Bladed Armor is only affected by armor from gear/enchants/buffs (which can be modified by frost presence), hence why a talent like toughness does not affect it.
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#29 Copernicus

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:18 PM

I am uncertain but reports say that Swordguard Embroidery from tailoring has a 45 sec ICD, with a 25% procrate and a 15 second duration that would put it at around 90 AP vs 22 agi or 22 haste.

I am mentioning it because you left tailoring out of the professions.

I hope someone has more accurate details regarding it since it is likely a good perk for the DK class considering our limited use of haste or agi

That's correct. There was a brief discussion on the Professions thread where Warriors, Death Knights, and Paladins are probably better off as DPS Tailors than any other class. It's a tough call though, because Blacksmithing can customize the gems with Strength instead of raw attack power, which might make them slightly better than the Embroidery.


If Agility and Haste are just that bad for Death Knights (so 22 Agility/Haste + 64 attack power < 90 Attack Power) then Tailoring is arguably better than Inscription, Alchemy, or Enchanting for Death Knights. Leatherworking is still a special case - while balanced for DPS purposes, the Stamina enchant is so insanely overpowered that anyone who thinks they might be a tank should be a Leatherworker. Meanwhile, Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting occupy a Schrodinger's-box existence where their power is directly related to the availability of epic gems... Jewelcrafting is much more powerful without them and maybe one of the worst profession with them, while Blacksmithing goes from above average (because of customization) to the top profession with epic gems being available.

#30 Pyros

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:24 PM

I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that Bladed Armor is only affected by armor from gear/enchants/buffs (which can be modified by frost presence), hence why a talent like toughness does not affect it.


Last time I played my DK, Toughness affected Bladed Armor. It wasn't always obvious at the first sight though, because of the internal cooldown refresh on bladed armor, so you'd fill toughness, see no increase, but if you waited 20secs or so it'd then refresh. However, rating agility over the gain from bladed armor is borderline useless. Agi>armor conversion is pretty damn low to begin with, and then armor > bladed armor is also low, so the gains per point would be absolutely negligible. Napkin math says: 2armor per agi, 5AP per 180armor, so ~0.05 AP per agi point.

#31 Nacht

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:24 PM

This link was posted in the other thread, they seem pretty accurate, so unless anyone sees any mistakes on there, I'll add it.


Most of the coefficients in that post are accurate. The one that is inaccurate is Gargoyle. The 0.42 listed is the base coefficient of 0.4 combined with the Orc pet racial of 5% pet damage. Non class specific Gargoyle scale is 0.4. For Orcs it would be 0.42.

#32 tedv

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:25 PM

I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that Bladed Armor is only affected by armor from gear/enchants/buffs (which can be modified by frost presence), hence why a talent like toughness does not affect it.


The tooltip just refers to armor. It should be easy to test though: Switch from Blood to Frost presence and see if your attack power increases.

#33 Lanky

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:25 PM

Looks Good so Far, some comments on Specs listed,

Blood:
Currently, Bloodworms flat out suck. The 50/21 Spec has 2/3 points in it. I'd recommend a reassessment of that spec for Pure DPS figures, perhaps to something like this 50/21. Vampiric Blood in no way adds to directly to DPS, but it will save your life or help your healers far more than bloodworms on fights with lots of periodic damage or AoE attacks.

The 51/13/7 Spec is absolutely on the Money, and it should be noted that it will surpass the first spec in DPS output as gear scales, because it scales as a spec far better with gear.

Frost: I am really unsure about Killing Machine 5/5 in a Two Handed frost spec. it is a Critical strike, on auto-attack only talent. I'd almost say take Frost Aura, and Rune Tap +2/3 Imp Rune Tap, again for overall raid contributions and utility. Moreover, you can squeeze another point out of frost to fill out Rune Tap, and then glyph it to create an excellent instant-cast party heal. Frost Aura gives 80 resist to all schools at 80, and it stacks with Mark of the Wild. I wouldnt overlook those benefits, similar to those of Unholy Aura, for your raid.

Unholy: Is fine, It is by far the easiest to both model and spec into.

#34 Leaflock

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:47 PM

Last time I played my DK, Toughness affected Bladed Armor. It wasn't always obvious at the first sight though, because of the internal cooldown refresh on bladed armor, so you'd fill toughness, see no increase, but if you waited 20secs or so it'd then refresh. However, rating agility over the gain from bladed armor is borderline useless. Agi>armor conversion is pretty damn low to begin with, and then armor > bladed armor is also low, so the gains per point would be absolutely negligible. Napkin math says: 2armor per agi, 5AP per 180armor, so ~0.05 AP per agi point.


I can confirm this-- Toughness affects Bladed Armor AP increases after a delay which varies, as does changing to Frost Presence. And, as argued in the previous thread, the AP gain from Toughness is too low to consider it a straight dps talent, despite Bladed Armor.

Also, as Lanky said above, the blood dps specs should not have Bloodworms. As I recall, we discussed several reasons they would actually be detrimental in raids. In particular, they messed up group healing spell mechanics. I would also suggest that Rune Tap is probably more useful than Vampiric Blood as dps-- with the reduction in potions and healthstones, having your own personal HS on a cooldown is a significant increase in survivability. You can't dps when you're dead.

On Unholy: I only see one rotation listed, but didn't we discuss that PS - IT - BS - BS - SS - PS - IT - SS - SS with the IT glyph was roughly equivalent, because of the runic power generated and potentially a little more Desecration uptime?

#35 Andread

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:04 PM

Under Stats choices can AP be added - I assumed these are all compared to 1AP?

#36 Torrential

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:12 PM

1 Request: Add in the numbers required (rating and conversion etc.) for expertise as is done with hit.

1 Comment: The DW tri-spec shouldn't ever use Obliterate.

Given the spec's dependence on non-strike damage (Howling Blast) I think the spec should look like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Given Chill of the Grave, Dirge, and the IT Glyph, and Blood Presence (You could do it in Unholy, but the shorter GCD just means you'll be waiting more and it would make you actually have to watch HB's cooldown rather than just use it in the rotation where it's CD fits) you can do this:

IT -> PS -> HB -> DC -> BS -> BS -> DC -> Wait (Letting diseases tick full)

If Rime procs you change to

IT -> PS -> HB -> DC -> BS -> BS -> HB -> DC

After 2 rime procs you'll have an excess 40 RP available and you can fill a Wait with a DC on one rotation.

Doing this you'll never have to obliterate. Also, as gargoyle's CD is nearing you can forgo both DCs in a rotation (using your DoT timer on Frost Fever to tell you when to IT (and thus start the rotation) again. This will leave you with 80 RP to use for gargoyle, and if you wanted max you just start one DC earlier and store up that RP too.

Note: That one point in virulence could be put into Corpse explosion, or Outbreak to boost PS a bit, it's just a lonely filler point to get to the gargoyle tier.

#37 methods

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:16 PM

Just to confirm, this is assuming sundered/faerie fire boss mob correct? Also I am not sure if armor pen is applied first or last, I assume last which would decrease the value if you assumed first. I am pretty surprised how high the numbers are I didn't think it would be better than expertise & crit for blood/frost.


This is applied to the base value of armor for the mob. It also includes Sunders and FF. I could apply it to the the end of the formula instead if that makes more sense. Anyone have confirmation on which is accurate? You are right that this could lower the value.

This is what I used:
Damage reduction= (Armor*APR-debuffs)/(Armor*APR-debuffs)+15232.5)

Should it just be =(Armor/(Armor+15232.5))*APR?

I can change it in a few seconds if i can get a confirmation.

#38 Illundai

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:25 PM

1 Request: Add in the numbers required (rating and conversion etc.) for expertise as is done with hit.



Can do. Just for some confirmation one point of Expertise converts to 0.25% less chance to be dodged and parried, right? I can't seem to find clear information on if this is still the case at level 80.

That aside, I'll re-evaluate the Tri-Spec build/rotation a bit later on tonight. Got no experience whatsoever with the spec though, so people feel free to evaluate whether we should change that bit or not.
I changed the Blood Specs to have Rune Tap and Mark of Blood instead of Bloodworms. You can put those points in other places obviously, but I think RT & MoB are the better choices for raiding.

I also added ArP to the stats comparison table, while adding AP there as well (at least I assumed it was comparing to 1 AP), added Glyphs and Attack Power coefficients. Next up will be fleshing out the Professions section.

Also, still need some stuff to put under the Pet section, I wish I had some clue about those and I would do it myself, but alas.

#39 Aeryn

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:25 PM

It may be a good idea to mention the different auras in the paragraphs about benefits brought by a spec: they all provide very nice raid buffs, especially Unholy Aura for DPS. And somewhat surprisingly, the effects are all unique to DKs as opposed to other classes. Personally, I think they are essential in any spec (with the exception of DW tri-spec, obviously). Sure, you might lose out on 2% personal DPS with Blood or Frost Aura, but considering you increase the survivability of the entire raid, that seems like a small price to pay.

#40 Torrential

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:27 PM

That aside, I'll re-evaluate the Tri-Spec build/rotation a bit later on tonight. Got no experience whatsoever with the spec though, so people feel free to evaluate whether we should change that bit or not.


I guess I should add the qualifier that I didn't play beta at all. What I came up with is based purely on a spreadsheet. In-game experience certainly trumps that if anybody sees a problem with what I proposed.




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