Jump to content


Photo

DPS Compendium


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
237 replies to this topic

#41 Rockers

Rockers

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 13 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:29 PM

Very nice summary, Illundai.

For some of the dps questions we have to wait a bit longer i guess, till we can test it on life (like gargoyle and drw).

About professions:

Herbalism: - Seems to be completely useless for DKs in its current implementation because of Bladed Armor. Hope they change it to increases physical damage taken by 20% or something like that.

Alchemy: Reports are either +60 AP (+33%) or +90 AP (+50%) for . Big problem is, you have to be able to make it yourself to get the bonus. You can only discover 1 recipe per week (so it might take 20+ weeks to get it).

Tailoring: Depends on internal cooldown. 25% proc chance. 1 ppm would be 75 AP average.

#42 Flamingcloud

Flamingcloud

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 768 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:32 PM

Can do. Just for some confirmation one point of Expertise converts to 0.25% less chance to be dodged and parried, right? I can't seem to find clear information on if this is still the case at level 80.

That aside, I'll re-evaluate the Tri-Spec build/rotation a bit later on tonight. Got no experience whatsoever with the spec though, so people feel free to evaluate whether we should change that bit or not.
I changed the Blood Specs to have Rune Tap and Mark of Blood instead of Bloodworms. You can put those points in other places obviously, but I think RT & MoB are the better choices for raiding.

I also added ArP to the stats comparison table, while adding AP there as well (at least I assumed it was comparing to 1 AP), added Glyphs and Attack Power coefficients. Next up will be fleshing out the Professions section.

Also, still need some stuff to put under the Pet section, I wish I had some clue about those and I would do it myself, but alas.


1 Expertise Skill is 0.25%, 32.78998947 Rating is 1%, so 8.1974973675 rating is 1 skill. Fairly certain the original table is compared to a 1 dps increase and not 1 attack power(as 1 strength is not ever going to be 2.5+ ap)

#43 Clandestine

Clandestine

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 381 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:32 PM

1 Point of Expertise is still equivalent to .25% dodge and parry reduction.

Blood Aura is not a significant survivability increase under normal circumstances, although it is useful for some gimmicks.

#44 Illundai

Illundai

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 1,239 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:37 PM

1 Expertise Skill is 0.25%, 32.78998947 Rating is 1%, so 8.1974973675 rating is 1 skill. Fairly certain the original table is compared to a 1 dps increase and not 1 attack power(as 1 strength is not ever going to be 2.5+ ap)


Thanks, and good catch. Not sure how I overlooked that.

Edit: Scrap that, it seems like it's compared to 1 AP after all. Putting it back up there :P.

#45 methods

methods

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 237 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:41 PM

1 Expertise Skill is 0.25%, 32.78998947 Rating is 1%, so 8.1974973675 rating is 1 skill. Fairly certain the original table is compared to a 1 dps increase and not 1 attack power(as 1 strength is not ever going to be 2.5+ ap)


It is based on stat vs ap. Str gets a lot of bonuses and stacks up very nicely in a raid environment. You have to consider Kings, Talents in each tree, AND Fallen Crusader especially (15 seconds of 30% more STR every minute).

1 STR before everything is worth 2 AP. All you would need is around a 25% increase in STR after all buffs to reach this level.

There is a possibility of mistakes as usual so when I get some time I'll double check.

#46 Flamingcloud

Flamingcloud

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 768 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:43 PM

It is based on stat vs ap. Str gets a lot of bonuses and stacks up very nicely in a raid environment. You have to consider Kings, Talents in each tree, AND Fallen Crusader especially (15 seconds of 30% more STR every minute).

1 STR before everything is worth 2 AP. All you would need is around a 25% increase in STR after all buffs to reach this level.

There is a possibility of mistakes as usual so when I get some time I'll double check.


I forgot fallen crusader in my calculation, are we certain it is better than cinder glacier for unholy & frost and better than razorice for frost?

#47 Davia

Davia

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 116 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:48 PM

It is based on stat vs ap. Str gets a lot of bonuses and stacks up very nicely in a raid environment. You have to consider Kings, Talents in each tree, AND Fallen Crusader especially (15 seconds of 30% more STR every minute).

1 STR before everything is worth 2 AP. All you would need is around a 25% increase in STR after all buffs to reach this level.

There is a possibility of mistakes as usual so when I get some time I'll double check.


Another minor benefit is that strength scales the ghoul's damage whereas straight AP bonuses do not.

#48 methods

methods

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 237 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:50 PM

I forgot fallen crusader in my calculation, are we certain it is better than cinder glacier for unholy & frost and better than razorice for frost?


I'm having a huge problem getting an accurate average for those two. But it seems to me that if either of them ever want to stand a chance against Fallen Crusader they either need a much higher PPM or they need to take off the charges and make them duration buffs. I Haven't tried to calculate Razorice yet because I don't have accurate data on how much the vulnerability is.

#49 bionh

bionh

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 31 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 05:53 PM

There is another Frost build that you might consider adding:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

14/50/7

Allows a rotation of:

IT - PS - BS - BS - OB - FS

OB - OB - OB - FS - FS

This scales considerably better with weapon damage than the 17/54 spec you mentioned. It is also greatly improved by 4pc. Tier 7, as the set bonus affects obliterate. With that bonus, you can fit a second FS into the first rotation.

#50 Flamingcloud

Flamingcloud

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 768 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:00 PM

I'm having a huge problem getting an accurate average for those two. But it seems to me that if either of them ever want to stand a chance against Fallen Crusader they either need a much higher PPM or they need to take off the charges and make them duration buffs. I Haven't tried to calculate Razorice yet because I don't have accurate data on how much the vulnerability is.


The vulnerability is 5%, though we have no confirmation on it stacking with ebon or not(I assume yes).

While Cinder Glacier does not have a higher proc rate, it does however have the advantage that lets say you get a proc, then another proc 5 seconds later. In that scenario you get a maximum of 20 seconds(assuming no more procs in that window) of fallen crusader, where as you might still get 100% of the value of cinder glacier due to no internal cooldown. So if it procs 3ppm after skills you can't guarantee anything like 45 seconds of uptime vs 6 charges. I certainly agree modeling this could be difficult, and not even worth doing if like 20 seconds of crusader > permanent cinder glacier, but if it is close the modeling needs to be done.

#51 methods

methods

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 237 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:15 PM

The vulnerability is 5%, though we have no confirmation on it stacking with ebon or not(I assume yes).

While Cinder Glacier does not have a higher proc rate, it does however have the advantage that lets say you get a proc, then another proc 5 seconds later. In that scenario you get a maximum of 20 seconds(assuming no more procs in that window) of fallen crusader, where as you might still get 100% of the value of cinder glacier due to no internal cooldown. So if it procs 3ppm after skills you can't guarantee anything like 45 seconds of uptime vs 6 charges. I certainly agree modeling this could be difficult, and not even worth doing if like 20 seconds of crusader > permanent cinder glacier, but if it is close the modeling needs to be done.


Hm. I'll give it some thought and see what I can come up with. Thanks for the confirmation on the vulnerability bonus. I might take the easy way out and create a 'dumb' simulation on my sheets.

This brings up a good point about the compendium. We should have all the information we can grab on PPMs and Internal cooldowns in the Runeforge section.

#52 Zurm

Zurm

    The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology

  • Members
  • 1,353 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:17 PM

I guess I should add the qualifier that I didn't play beta at all. What I came up with is based purely on a spreadsheet. In-game experience certainly trumps that if anybody sees a problem with what I proposed.


The issue I have with your spec is that you don't do enough spell damage to warrant dumping Dark Conviction (which adds a ton to your white AND spell damage) for Impurity. In addition, I don't believe that spec will generate enough RP to support gargoyle.
Back, semi-casual, and proud of it.

#53 Okoi

Okoi

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:18 PM

There is another Frost build that you might consider adding:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

14/50/7

Allows a rotation of:

IT - PS - BS - BS - OB - FS

OB - OB - OB - FS - FS

This scales considerably better with weapon damage than the 17/54 spec you mentioned. It is also greatly improved by 4pc. Tier 7, as the set bonus affects obliterate. With that bonus, you can fit a second FS into the first rotation.


Great thread we have here. I also noticed the 4pc Tier7 would be a nice benefit to a build like this.

#54 methods

methods

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 237 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:26 PM

Great thread we have here. I also noticed the 4pc Tier7 would be a nice benefit to a build like this.


I find it a bit funny that the T7 bonuses are both heavily favoring Unholy and Frost. Blood is better off with Heart strikes so they will more than likely be looking elsewhere for their DPS min/maxing.

#55 Nethris

Nethris

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 163 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:28 PM

I was under the impression Haste would reduce the GCD on Icy Touch, Howling Blast and Death Coil.

I could be wrong, however.

Edit: To the above, yeah that does seem awfully odd and confusing. I'll get that changed.


Possibly Unholy Blight (and most/all of the skills on the AP coeff table perhaps?) as well - anything that's a spell should be affected by the GCD reduction of (spell) haste, outside of unholy presence where the minimum GCD has already been achieved.

On the subject of Ghoul explosion, I believe that was a ghoul ability at some point in beta that got replaced by a (hidden) use of Corpse Explosion, where you can use corpse explosion with your ghoul as it's target and do a solid amount of AoE damage at the cost of your ghoul. I wasn't in beta though, so could someone confirm that? Probably unlikely to be of use as a general purpose dps ability, but worth considering when choosing to skip Corpse Explosion or not in an Unholy spec, and the damage mechanics of that would be useful for figuring out if there are any cases worth using it in, or if having corpse explosion and using this when your ghoul is almost expired is a dps gain without MoG.

#56 Okoi

Okoi

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:30 PM

I find it a bit funny that the T7 bonuses are both heavily favoring Unholy and Frost. Blood is better off with Heart strikes so they will more than likely be looking elsewhere for their DPS min/maxing.


Yeah, even more battling over plate DPS gear. At least this time around it looks like they did really well on itemization for plate.

#57 Flamingcloud

Flamingcloud

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 768 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, even more battling over plate DPS gear. At least this time around it looks like they did really well on itemization for plate.


Warriors will still be all over leather as agility fully benefits them, and stacking crit is significantly better for them than for dks.

#58 pdpi

pdpi

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 83 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:37 PM

It should be further noted that Death Rune Mastery works somewhat different from what you'd expect. If you have all your Unholy and Frost Runes as Death Runes (so BBDDDD), and then use an Obliterate or Death Strike, the following happens:

[1] Your two Unholy Runes which are currently Death Runes will get used by the ability.
[2] Only one of your recently used Death Runes will remain a Death Rune. The other will turn back to Unholy, despite having just been used for an ability. (Or BBDDDU)
If you have only your Unholy Runes as Death Runes, and your Frost Runes are currently on cooldown, thus making it that your two converted Unholy Runes get used by Obliterate or Death Strike (BBFFDD), the following happens:

[1] Your two Unholy Runes which are currently Death Runes will get used by the ability.
[2] As before, only one of your two Unholy Runes becomes a Death Rune, however one of your Frost Runes (despite not being used by the ability) will also become a Death Rune. (BBDFDU)
That also applies if you have two Frost Runes as Death Runes and you use those for Obliterate or Death Strike. You end up with one of the Frost Runes staying a Death Rune, while one of the Unholy Runes will also turn into a Death Rune.
Thanks to Chicken


You only mention death rune mastery, which I guess is the only one that affects dual-rune skills, and I never actually played in the beta, so I don't know whether this affects the other death rune talents, but I'll assume it does. Note this is pure conjecture, but I think it pretty much explains this behavior elegantly:

Death runes fulfill the resource requirements for skills, but are not, in fact the right rune types for the mastery talents.

Or, if you prefer:

Skills check for the active runes, mastery talents check the underlying rune slot types

EDIT: This, of course, affects Death Rune Mastery only because death runes are always used Blood > Unholy > Frost, regardless of the skill used.

#59 level12wizard

level12wizard

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 105 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 07:08 PM

Herbalism: - Seems to be completely useless for DKs in its current implementation because of Bladed Armor. Hope they change it to increases physical damage taken by 20% or something like that.

Alchemy: Reports are either +60 AP (+33%) or +90 AP (+50%) for . Big problem is, you have to be able to make it yourself to get the bonus. You can only discover 1 recipe per week (so it might take 20+ weeks to get it).



As many people have said, Bladed Armor does not automatically update. Considering the buff only lasts ten seconds, I would assume that you never lose the AP from Bladed Armor. It is possible that Bladed Armor works by updating at fixed intervals, but it seems to be that it only updates 20+ seconds after your armor has changed. That needs testing I suppose.

Either way, to get the full 66.7 requires you to be popping one every minute, which depending on how rare they are could prove to be a serious hassle.

Good point on Alchemy requiring you know the flask.



Additionally, it might be worth explaining Pestilence's mechanics. Pestilence does not refresh the diseases on the target you cast it on, but the diseases spread will start at max duration (unless this has been changed).

#60 Zurm

Zurm

    The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology

  • Members
  • 1,353 posts

Posted 07 November 2008 - 07:29 PM

I find it a bit funny that the T7 bonuses are both heavily favoring Unholy and Frost. Blood is better off with Heart strikes so they will more than likely be looking elsewhere for their DPS min/maxing.


It's true those bonuses benefit frost and unholy more. However, blood still uses obliterate in the rotations, and obliterate still hits quite hard as blood from what I hear.
Back, semi-casual, and proud of it.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users