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Feral-Bear Megathread


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#1 Rannasha

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 07:51 AM

Introductory Post

Introduction
This is the WotLK-Bear edition of the "Feral Druid Megathread", a thread originally created and maintained by dukes. Large portions of this post are blatantly copied (with permission) from dukes set of posts and updated where it was needed.

Due to dehybridization of the feral tree, the Feral Druid Megathread now has a cat and a bear version, to keep tanking discussion and dps discussion separate. If you're looking for the the cat-thread, you can find it here: Feral Druid Megathread v2 - The Cat Edition.

The structure of this multi-post is as follows:
  • Introduction post - random stuff.
  • The main post - Most of the information on stats, gear, rotations, etc..
  • The News, Changelog, FAQ post - latest news and commonly asked stuff. If you're new to the thread and have a question, chances are it's answered here.

Unfortunately the forum scheme isn't always the clearest for seeing links so (at least if I remember) I'll italicise all links.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to thank both everyone who has ever done any work previously on druid theorycrafting and all those who are likely to contribute in the future. This post wouldn't be here without you.

Feel free to use this post as the main discussion thread for bear druid stuff. I'll keep up to date with it and update the main posts with anything interesting to the population at large so that (hopefully) we have less posts of "is this item worth it?" or "what benefit does this talent give me for that encounter?" and the like.

Be warned that there is likely to be some opinion in the following posts. I'll try and keep opinion out as much as possible.


Making Posts
Please please PLEASE read through this post and search this thread for information on any topic you're looking for before posting about it. If you don't and there's already information, people will probably be polite and point you to the relevant section, but it's much easier for everyone if you just search for it. At least check the main posts first. Ctrl+F is your friend and generally better than the search function on the forums in my experience.

If you are asking about how good an item is, check the spreadsheets or Rawr (DPS and tanking). If you must post about it, use the tags (without the spaces) to make it show up properly. It's much easier to have a mouseover than have to go to an external site. Most of the time people will just point you to one of the spreadsheets/simulator things anyway, so it's best off actually using them rather than expecting someone else to do it for you. Don't be scared about using them - if you screw something up it doesn't matter (although obviously if you get a result that you think is significantly wrong, question it with the author of whatever you're using). They're all designed to be user friendly so you shouldn't get stuck with any of them.

Additional to this, you need to follow the forum rules, paying attention to this post. Deciding you're above these or just ignoring them is likely to get you into an arguement with the mods/banned very quickly.


Random Info

One of the standard abbreviations/shortenings I use is: 2t7 = Two pieces of Tier 7 (Dreamwalker). Similar numbering for other sets (2t8, 4t8, etc). Raid-sets from 10man dungeons are typically denoted by T7.10 (for the Naxxramas set) and similarly T7.25 for 25mans. Set bonusses are the same for both 10 and 25 man sets however.

Talking of talent-trees, it is important to realize that there is no longer a single best Feral build. The first thing to consider is what you want to focus on. Feral builds for DPS, tanking and PvP differ on some crucial points. Hence the differentiation between the two threads. Even within a certain spec, there are variations possible depending on personal preference, your raidsetup and the encounters you're facing.

If you've read through the main posts and haven't found what you're looking for, have a quick look again and then ask in the thread. Asking repeat questions which are already answered is likely to get people annoyed, while posting new questions that need answers is likely to get people interested in finding out what's going on.


Useful Mods
A timer bar for Mangle/DOT's is very handy when DPSing. There are plenty available to choose from. Personally, i use DoTimer. Browse to your favorite addon-website (curse.com, wowinterface.com, etc...) to find out more.


Useful Links
A list of those threads that this information has been pulled from. Some of these are quite old and information in them may be out of date.
Elitist Jerks Threads
[Druid] Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion
Feral Druid Megathread
Combat Ratings at level 80
Cat DPS - Value of +hit
Cat DPS - General
Cat DPS - Feral AP Scaling
Bear Tanking - Item Comparisons
Bear Tanking - Pre-Raid Gear
General - 3 roles, 5 stages of grief
Outside Links
WoW-Blues - Blizzard Post Track (Druid section)
The Druid Wiki -->> Main Page

#2 Rannasha

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 07:52 AM

The Bear post.
Explains stuff like what the stats mean and how you should be looking to gear yourself.

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The Basics - Stats
I'll start off similar to the Cat post, by explaining the (important) stat conversions. Bear form is for tanking, therefore your tanking stats are the most important part of your gear, in general. Each is explained per point.

Diminishing Returns on Avoidance
With the introduction of patch 3.0.2, the way avoidance is calculated has changed somewhat. Before WotLK, avoidance became more powerful the more you had of it. This can be seen by considering the extreme example where if you're at 0% avoidance adding an additional 1% will increase your expected time to live by 1% while adding 1% while you're at 98% avoidance already will increase your expected time to live by 100%. These days, the more you have of a certain avoidance type, the less raw avoidance you'll get from 1 additional rating (or agility). This doesn't mean that avoidance gets weaker the more you get of it, but rather that this superlinear scaling of pre-WotLK has been dampened to something more linear.

In the following, all rating-to-avoidance ratios will be given before these diminishing returns are factored in. This means that ingame, you will get slightly less benefit for each point. How much less exactly and a more detailed treatment of the new ratings can be found in the Combat Ratings at level 80 thread.

Armor now and in the future
The way armor works for us has been changed in patch 3.0.2. Prior to this patch, we used to have alot of armor (close to or at the armor cap), but were vulnerable to crushing blows. In an attempt to make all tanks more equal, Blizzard removed crushing blows from PvE raids and lowered our armor. This was done by removing all bonus armor from leather gear. Bonus armor is the armor that is on top of the base armor that any item already has, it was generally shown in green ingame. Additionally, the bearform armor bonus was reduced from 400% to 370%. High-armor rings, trinkets, etc still exist and we still have more armor than other tanks.

In order to stop Druids from being tied to the very few high armor jewelry pieces for the entire expansion, armor benefits from all items except the 8 leather slots will be reduced in a future patch. The bearform modifier will no longer apply to rings, trinkets, necklaces and cloaks (they will just provide the armor that is shown) and we will receive no benefit from armor on weapons. To compensate for this loss of armor, the bearform modifier will be tweaked. In what way this'll be done is not known yet, but Blizzard ensured us that the goal is not to nerf Druid armor, but rather open up more itemization avenues for us.

For now, armor is still the best stat to get, but don't go overboard trying to get that last piece of +armor jewelry while you have a perfectly fine avoidance equivalent for it.

Mitigation Stats
Stats and what they give you. Brackets are raid buffed values while the normal ones are unbuffed. All values are assuming HoTW and SoTF. All values are per 1 point of stat.
Agility         = 0.0254% (0.027984%) dodge. 1% dodge needs ~39.31 (~35.73) agility. 2.12 armor per point of agility (this armor is unaffected by the bearform modifier or the Thick Hide talent).
				  
Dodge Rating    = ~0.025% dodge. 39.35 dodge rating per % dodge.

Stamina         = 15.9 health (17.49 health)

Defense         = ~4.92 rating per skill, 1 skill = 0.04% dodge, miss, anti-crit. 25 defense skill,
                  or ~122.96 defense rating, for 1% less crit/more dodge/more miss.

Armor           = 5.17 armor in bearform if the armor comes from items. 1 armor if it comes from buffs/enchants. See the note on armor above.

Armor remains the best scaling stat. Agility is next, with dodge rating very closely following in terms of pure avoidance, but it doesn't have any of the additional benefits of agility. Defense rating is no longer required, since Druids are passively crit-immune with 3/3 Survival of the Fittest. Defense rating still improves our avoidance, but you need about 50% more for the same gain that dodge rating provides.

Stamina remains more or less the same as it was. We get alot of health per point due to the various %-modifiers. But once you have enough health to comfortably survive whatever burst damage a boss can throw at you, any additional stamina is of relativley low value.

Threat Stats

In general threat-generation of all tanks is quite high compared to that of DPS classes. That doesn't mean that threat is a non-issue, it's just less important than it used to be. The stats that have value for threat are detailed below, with normal values being unbuffed and bracketed being buffed, assuming HoTW, PotP and SotF.
Strength                  = 2.2472 AP per point (2.719 AP per point)

Agility                   = 1% crit per ~78.62 agility (1% crit per ~71.47 agility)

Critical Strike Rating    = 1% per 45.91 rating at 80

Hit Rating                = 1% hit per ~32.79 hit rating  

Attack Power              = 1.06 (1.166) AP per point.

Expertise Rating          = 1% reduced parry/dodge chance per ~32.79 rating.

Agility features pretty heavily in both the tanking and mitigation stat lineups - it's a very good multipurpose stat, and will be very useful on gear that you use for both bear and cat forms.


Hit Rating and Expertise

Hit rating gives 1% hit per ~33 rating.
Expertise gives 1% less parry and 1% less dodge per ~33 rating.

There are a lot of good available items now that contain hit or expertise. Expertise is of approximately double the value of hit rating up to approximately 185 rating, then levels out to about the same value. Consideration of the other stats on the item that the expertise/hit is on also needs to be made to make a final decission.

Expertise has a secondary effect of reducing parries. Mobs have an effect where when they parry it hastens their next swing by ~40%, therefore reducing/removing their ability to parry can have a large effect on incoming burst damage.

Hit rating has the secondary effect of increasing taunt hit. This can be very important for particular fights and so it may be worth putting together a secondary set of gear with capped hit rating (9%, ~295 hit rating, and a ). Note that Growl has a base misschance of 17% (like spells) and it needs a combination of the glyph and hitrating to hitcap normal attacks to never miss. Instead of the glyph, you can use more hitrating, but since any hit over 9% only affects Growl, this extra hit is fairly useless.

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Roles, Gems, Enchants and Professions
There are two main roles that you will take as a feral while tanking: Main tanking, in which you are the number one tank tanking the boss, and offtanking, where you are either soaking damage on a fight such as Patchwerk, or tanking a mob for a short amount of time/limited periods, like Anub'rekhan. When MTing, survival stats are generally superior. Armor is our best-scaling stat for now, but this won't be so in the future. Generally, a balanced set of stats will perform better than stacking a single stat. Obviously, every encounter has different requirements; a fight with alot of burst damage calls for more stamina, while a boss that does alot of damage, but in a steady, predictable stream is more easily tackled with high avoidance. In the offtank role, agility place a major role, since it is both a very good avoidance stat and a good threat/DPS stat.

Coming on to the topic of gems, this makes it fairly easy. You either go for pure Stamina, Stamina/Agility or pure Agility. If threat is a concern, then Expertise is probably the way to go.

Again enchants are dependant on role in the raid, so these can vary. Generally stamina and agility are very safe bets. For boots, the combination enchant of stamina together with runspeed is strongly recommended. Though hard to quantify, runspeed can be a major bonus in alot of encounters.

A table of how run speed enchants stacks with other bonuses can be found here.

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Professions
The main professions in the game are Tailoring (craft), Leatherworking (craft), Blacksmithing (craft), Alchemy (craft), Jewelcrafting (craft), Engineering (craft), Inscription (craft), Enchanting (gather/craft), Herbalism (gather), Mining (gather), and Skinning (gather). The general rules are that gathering professions are good for making money, and crafting professions are good for making lumps of money if you can get rare items, or making nice stuff that you can use.

All crafting professions have some sort of crafter-only benefit, ring-enchants being one example. These benefits are generally fairly balanced. For all the details, see WotLK Profession Thread. Right now, there are no really worthwhile BoP craftable items available. Chances are that these might be added in later raid dungeons, but only time will tell.

Ignoring perks that have no effect on raiding (such as desirable trading products or cost reductions), Jewelcrafting gives you access to BoP gems that have 35% more stats than epic gems of the same type (27 instead of 20). Additionally, these Dragon's Eyes are so-called "prismatic gems", which means they count as all colors, making it easier to obtain socket bonusses and meta-gem activation. The number of prismatic gems you can have equipped is limited to 3.

Leatherworkers gain the ability to apply "fur lining" to their bracers. This doesn't stack with enchants and increases stamina by 90 (I've not found a comparable normal enchant yet, but the itembudget of the top bracer enchants points at a ~40 stamina value for such an enchant). Enchanters gain ring-enchants, +24 stamina per ring. Blacksmiths can add a socket to their gloves and their bracers. Scribes will be able to make BoP shoulder enchants (details unknown to me as of yet). Tailors can create "Embroideries", which are cloak enchants. The DPS one gives you a chance that your attacks ignore 1000 armor, no tanking embroidery seems to be available. Alchemists have a passive ability that increases the duration of flasks and elixirs by 100% and increases the effect by ~30% (exact value differs per flask/elixir). In addition, alchemist stones are available that increase the effect of potions by 40% as well as provide stats (100 AP, 50 critrating) in a trinket slot.

Engineers can create special enchants with various effects such as rocket launcher on gloves, a 340 haste for 8 seconds clicky on gloves or a sprint-clicky on boots.

As for the gathering professions, skinners gain 25 crit rating, miners 500 health. Herbalists get a 3min cooldown HoT (self-only) that heals for 1800.

Gathering skills are good if you want to make money (generally herbalism and mining are better than skinning) or to support a main skill (skinning is good if you have leatherworking, generally). The gathering perks are generally not as strong as the crafting perks and only skinning provides a direct DPS benefit.

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Glyphs
Major glyphs that are relevant for bears are:

- Makes FR into a more formidable panic button, handy, but situational.
- Only good for certain fights that depend on taunts landing.
- An 18 second debuff with a 6 (or 4.5) second cooldown is overkill, this glyph isn't for tanking.
- Very powerful when tanking more than 1 mob. It needs a bit of care around CCed mobs though.
- Not necessarily a tanking glyph, but still quite useful.

And minor glyphs:
- For the regular swimmer.
- Of situational use, but it can come in handy.
- This one is quite handy, being able to get to places more quickly can be a great boost in some encounters.
- Convenience mostly, though chances are your spec won't include imp MotW and another Druid will handle the buff.
- Nice for soloing, little use for raids as boss encounters generally don't last more than 10 minutes. Mostly a convenience glyph.
- Saves you one bagslot, nifty.

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Consumables
is the clear winner for tanking.
is the recommended battle elixir.
and are the 2 choices for guardian elixirs.
is the best flask choice.

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Threat Generation
In a general sense, threat generation for all tanks, and especially bears, is very good these days. Mangle is exceptional as a threat generator, and white hits give a lot of rage, along with the talent Primal Fury which gives 5 rage on a crit (works on every individual crit, so in situations with alot of mobs, you can generate alot of rage; with 15 mobs and 30% crit chance, most Swipes will have 4 or 5 crits, restoring 20 or 25 rage). Also see the hit and expertise section earlier in this post, as gear can play a big role in threat generation.

Maul is a tricky ability at times, it is good for threat generation, but severely reduces rage generation by removing the rage that would otherwise be gained from the white hit it replaces. A crit in good tanking gear can generate a significant chunk of rage (30+) along with the extra 5 from Primal Fury. By converting this attack into a maul, you "lose" the rage you would have gained from the white hit, but it also costs you the rage cost of Maul (10). This means that maul costs you an effective 40 rage or more, which could be used for other special attacks if you're rage-starved. Maul is very useful for getting "snap" agro on mobs though, as it will activate as soon as you are in range. With the , Maul becomes a powerful tool in tanking 2 mobs, as it generates alot more threat than a single Swipe. With more than 2 mobs, it's still useful, though you can't control which mob gets hit by the extra attack.

In no particular order, the threat moves you should be using:
- Mangle. You should always be using this if it is off cooldown.
- Swipe. You should be using this if tanking more than 1 mob, as long as it doesn't screw up crowd control (sheep/etc). Depending on your gear and precise spec, Swipe might also be better than Lacerate on single targets.
- Lacerate. Most of Lacerates threat comes from a passive bonus threat, the damage dealt by Lacerate only generates half the threat that normal damage would do. Nevertheless, a full stack of Lacerate can be a decent contributing to your threat and your DPS.
- Maul. As mentioned above, Maul generates alot of threat, but has a high effective rage cost.
- Faerie Fire (Feral). This move costs no rage, but still generates a considerably amount of threat. In single-mob situations, it's worth it to use it on every cooldown (provided it doesn't overlap with the use of Mangle or other essential abilities).

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Threat values for specific abilities
Below is a list of threat values generated by the various bear abilities as gathered by Astrylian on the WotLK Beta realms. First, it's worth noting that both threat-increasing talents and Blessing of Salvation have been removed. The effect that both of these had on threat generation has been added to the passive bearform threat modifier. This means that any bear, regardless of spec, will now be in the situation as if he/she were a Feral Instinct bear with Blessing of Salvation on all other raidmembers. This makes tanking less spec-dependent and reduces the necessity of a Paladin in raids and small groups.

In the list below, the factor 29/14 (~2.07) denotes this passive bearform modifier. For example, dealing 1000 damage with Mangle means that you generate ~2070 threat. A melee DPSer will have to generate 2277 threat (your 2070 + 10%) to pull aggro, while someone at range needs 2691 threat (your 2070 + 30%).

Attacks
Mangle - Bear: (29/14) * DAMAGE
Maul: (29/14) * (DAMAGE + (424 / #_OF_TARGETS))
Lacerate: (29/14) * (DAMAGE + 1031) / 2
Lacerate DOT: (29/14) * (DAMAGE) / 2
Swipe: (29/14) * DAMAGE
Melee: (29/14) * DAMAGE
Faerie Fire (Feral): (29/14) * (DAMAGE + 632)

Other
Thorns: (29/14) * DAMAGE
Natural Reaction: (5 * RAGE_GAINED) / #_OF_TARGETS
Primal Fury: (29/14) * (2.5 * RAGE_GAINED) / #_OF_TARGETS
Enrage: (29/14) * (5 * RAGE_GAINED) / #_OF_TARGETS
Demoralizing Roar: 127 / #_OF_TARGETS
Challenging Roar: 203 / #_OF_TARGETS
Feral Charge - Bear: 165
Clearcasting: 20 / #_OF_TARGETS
Self Healing: (29/14) * (HEALED / 2) / #_OF_TARGETS (Includes Regrowth, Rejuv, Lifebloom, Frenzied Regeneration)
Barkskin: 92 / #_OF_TARGETS
Improved Leader of the Pack: 0
Infected Wounds: 0
Furor: 0

The "#_OF_TARGETS" listed in the Maul formula refers to the . When you hit 2 targets, the bonus damage of Maul is split between the two, but since Mauls threat comes for a large part from its damage, this isn't a big problem.

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Other Things

Rawr - A theorycrafting tool for alot of classes/specs, including cats and bears

#3 Rannasha

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 07:52 AM

News
Dates are DD/MM/YYYY for clarification, and I will try and link the source wherever possible.

13/11/08 (NA/EU) - WotLK goes live.

Changelog
I'll try and keep this up to date with notes on what has been changed and when in this post.

12/11/08 - Expanded the professions section.
12/11/08 - First posted.


Frequently Asked Questions

Do proc-enchants (like Mongoose) work in forms?
As of 3.0.2, these enchants (finally) work in all feral forms.

Can i use potions in forms
Also as of 3.0.2, potions are usable in forms without having to use a shifting-macro. You can still use your old shifting macro to receive greater benefits from health potions, but this comes at the cost of being bound to the GCD.

My armor has gone down, what's up?!
In order to make all tanks more equal, all defensive statistics are being equalized more, to allow for easier balancing. As a consequence, our armor has gone down compared to TBC levels, but in return, crushing blows have been effectively removed from PvE raids, which negates a major advantage Warriors and Paladins had. We still have more armor than other tanks and we're not in a bad spot now when it comes to tanking.

Should i aim for armor trinkets/rings/cloaks?
For now, they're still the best choice. However, be aware that Blizzard is going to remove the bearform modifier on all slots except for the armor pieces. So a 500 armor ring will give you only 500 armor after that patch. We will be compensated for this loss of armor, so it won't be a nerf. Just don't go overboard trying to get these +armor items.

Can a Druid tank encounter XYZ?
Right now, all tanks can tank all WotLK bosses and Blizzard has stated that it is their intention to keep it that way. So WotLK will probably not bring any bosses with Shear, Deaden or legendary shields.

#4 Rannasha

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 07:53 AM

-reserved for possible future use-

#5 Nitz

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:02 AM

It still works, and yes, it will net you more health but you have to be off-GCD to use it.

#6 duallain

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:38 AM

It looks like much of the Wrath armor has either Armor Pen. or Haste rating built in. Is there a preference for threat generation in bear between these two stats?

#7 Grubsnik

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 11:13 AM

I'd guess it varies depending on where you are gearwise.

At a certain point swipe overtakes lacerate spam for threat. When you reach that point, threat from ArPen also does a jump.

But generally threat in 3.0 is not an issue, you will most likely be gearing for mitigation/avoidance/stam/expertise first. Which leaves haste and armor penetration low enough on the list for you never to have to make the choice.

Edit: BTW you might want to prefix both threads with [druid] to keep it in style with the rest of the forum

#8 david0925

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 11:21 AM

It looks like much of the Wrath armor has either Armor Pen. or Haste rating built in. Is there a preference for threat generation in bear between these two stats?


Haste will probably be better in a raid setting since ArP rating scales worse with raid buffs. I do not have quantified answers, however. Haste also allows us to use Maul, our best scaling attack, happens more frequently, assuming unlimited rage. With BoSan in the raid you will be rage capped most of the time.

#9 Monedula

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 11:49 AM

You suggest using the following gems:
pure Stamina, Stamina/Agility or pure Agility or expertise.
Stamina = blue.
Agility = red.
Expertise = red.

Now this leaves out yellow slots. I have no idea how many yellow slots there will be in the items useful for tanking. I neither know if there are/will be any usable meta gems that require a yellow gem.

A valid Yellow gem would be a gem with hit rating.
If a yellow gem slot is required what would you suggest on that topic?
Get a hit rating gem (or Hit/Stamina, Hit/Agility) or:
For item with yellow slot: Just forget about the item bonus? Get red/blue in a yellow socket?
For a meta gem that requires a yellow gem: Just get a different meta gem?

One more related question which is not completely clear;

Armor = 5.17 armor in bearform if the armor comes from items. 1 armor if it comes from buffs/enchants. See the note on armor above.

How do gems fit into that? They count toward armor from items or are they considered buffs/enchants?

As to prefixing the threads; If you have both threads open in tabs you will see the first words of each thread as title. Having Bear and Cat at the end means it will never show in the tab title. So the following names might be preferable:
[Druid]: Cat: Feral Druid Megathread v2 - The Cat Edition
[Druid]: Bear: Feral Druid Megathread v2 - The Bear Edition
Of course this is mere convenience.

#10 dukes

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 12:15 PM

The available variations are as below, as far as I can tell (I've just used the epic ones as they're at the top of the list on Wowhead).

Offensive:






Defensive:



Mixed:





I've included ones with defense in order to increase the defensive possibilities. The "Defensive" ones aren't so much of an option - they're just there in case you want to go all out defense, even though they're technically sub-optimal by definition. I would go with Accurate, Glinting, Vivid or Forceful personally, depending on what piece of gear you're putting it in.

, , or look like the main meta-gem choices, and only the Relentless variant requires a yellow gem, and then only one.

As regards sockets, a simple search on Wowhead shows plenty of leather gear with yellow sockets, including 2 on each of the T7 sets (one on each of legs/chest).

#11 Monedula

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 01:11 PM

My question wasn't really directed at whether the gear had much yellow sockets (I assumed there were at least some). My question originated from the fact that I have seen a lot of warriors ignore socket bonuses and getting a blue stamina gem into each available socket (regardless of color).

I've always tried to socket an item to get the socket bonus.

I see a couple of gems in that list that would not be my first choise for bearform (the last mentioned meta for instance and the ones including crit)
In regard to bearform, is it a better option to put Agility in red, Stamina in blue (or a mix) and whatever of those two you prefer more in yellow, or would it be preferable to get some hit gems? Or even haste gems (though I think haste should only be taken when your gear already has a considerable amount of hit.)

#12 Cadsuane

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 01:58 PM

My question wasn't really directed at whether the gear had much yellow sockets (I assumed there were at least some). My question originated from the fact that I have seen a lot of warriors ignore socket bonuses and getting a blue stamina gem into each available socket (regardless of color).

I've always tried to socket an item to get the socket bonus.

I see a couple of gems in that list that would not be my first choise for bearform (the last mentioned meta for instance and the ones including crit)
In regard to bearform, is it a better option to put Agility in red, Stamina in blue (or a mix) and whatever of those two you prefer more in yellow, or would it be preferable to get some hit gems? Or even haste gems (though I think haste should only be taken when your gear already has a considerable amount of hit.)


There is not a general answer to this, since this will depend on where you are gear wise, what the bonus is and what you loose/gain for it.

edit: typo

#13 Grubsnik

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 02:46 PM

Gem-wise, you will be going for Stamina and agility and ignoring pretty much everything else. If you can get a socketbonus which will allow you to get more of either, go for it, but otherwise ignore it.

Stam gives you the most until you reach the point where you no longer are in danger of getting instant-killed. From there on, stack agility.

For yellows use a green or orange depending on what you need (stam/agi) with +hit until you cap it, then work on crit.

Since socket bonusses are based on number of sockets, it pretty easy to tell that unless you want the yellow for a meta-gem, you will only want the socketbonus if you are using rare gems, and never for epics.

#14 Pharmacon

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 02:52 PM

My question wasn't really directed at whether the gear had much yellow sockets (I assumed there were at least some). My question originated from the fact that I have seen a lot of warriors ignore socket bonuses and getting a blue stamina gem into each available socket (regardless of color).

I've always tried to socket an item to get the socket bonus.

I see a couple of gems in that list that would not be my first choise for bearform (the last mentioned meta for instance and the ones including crit)
In regard to bearform, is it a better option to put Agility in red, Stamina in blue (or a mix) and whatever of those two you prefer more in yellow, or would it be preferable to get some hit gems? Or even haste gems (though I think haste should only be taken when your gear already has a considerable amount of hit.)


The short answer to this is: Use Rawr

The longer answer is: You have to gem what is going to help you. Lots of socket bonuses are utter crap when it comes to Tanking (or DPS but that's a different thread). So you have to think what's going to benefit you the most. Sure I could put in a Stam/Hit gem but am I hit capped? Am I already above and beyond the TPS demands of my guild? Am I short on dodge and Agi would help more? A lot of this can be judged the best in Rawr to see if the set bonus is beneficial enough to use say an Agi/Stam gem vs a pure Stam gem.

[e]: I think it would be helpful to list the Rawr site under useful links. Or link the thread, but the thread title change constantly.

#15 Monedula

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 03:26 PM

[e]: I think it would be helpful to list the Rawr site under useful links. Or link the thread, but the thread title change constantly.

Rawr is there, not with links in the first post, but at the bottom of the 2nd post.

For myself, I have the EJ thread with rawr open, but until it is really needed (I get to 80) or the druid info is more complete, then I'll download it.

#16 kalbear

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 03:38 PM

Can we have this post and the other feral post have the [Druid] in their title?

#17 Polynices

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 05:16 PM

[edit: crud, I'm an idiot -- I was offering an incorrect correction -- will try to salvage post with my minor point below]

It would be nice to see a list of what talents are officially tanking talents (like master shapeshifter yea or nay?) as well as which ones you should drop first if trying to add cat ability to your spec would be nice in there. I am sure many of us will be trying to be some sort of hybrid, at least for leveling, so knowing the best bear talents would be good.

#18 Rannasha

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 06:04 PM

[edit: crud, I'm an idiot -- I was offering an incorrect correction -- will try to salvage post with my minor point below]

It would be nice to see a list of what talents are officially tanking talents (like master shapeshifter yea or nay?) as well as which ones you should drop first if trying to add cat ability to your spec would be nice in there. I am sure many of us will be trying to be some sort of hybrid, at least for leveling, so knowing the best bear talents would be good.


I managed to dig an old list of talent effects on TPS from the WotLK preview thread, not sure how correct it still is, but i can't recall any significant changes being made to TPS abilities/talents at the end of beta (correct me if i'm wrong).

http://elitistjerks....9-post2248.html

#19 Astrylian

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 06:26 PM

Just wait about 6 hours til we release Rawr 2.1, and that should be able to answer your question about the TPS value of each talent.
Rawr!

#20 Astrylian

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 03:50 AM

Download - Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.1

Rawr is now designed for use with WoW 3.0, primarily for characters up to level 80. Some things to note:
•We're not done. We've included only the models that have been updated for WoW 3.0; older models are available via our source control only, since they're not of much use until they get updated.
•To help you stay updated with the latest changes, Rawr will now check for new available updates, notify you if there's a newer version, and offer to open Rawr's website for you.
•We now have support for loading item data from Wowhead. Please note that the Wowhead parsing is brand new, so there are bound to be bugs. Please report any bugs you find, and we'll try to get them fixed asap.

Recent Changes:
v2.1: Updated for level 80 content. Removed models which haven't yet been updated for WoW 3.0. Added two brand new models: Enhance and DPSDK! Welcome to Rawr, Enhancement Shamans and DPS Death Knights!


Bears, this includes threat calculations once again. Better than before, even; it will now try all the different threat rotations, and tell you what's best with your gear/spec.
Rawr!




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