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Druid: Simple Questions/Simple Answers


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#21 Nysus

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 03:07 PM

Does anyone know of any quest rewards that really shouldn't be missed? I've made the mistake before of choosing the wrong reward or DEing something worthwhile and don't want to make that mistake it again. This could apply to good rewards for any spec.

#22 keepyacoolbro

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 05:27 PM

Ratings Buster

Is there a simple ratings buster type mod that'll let me know when to swap out my TBC epics for northrend rewards and drops?

I'm lazy:
i know rawr has been updated, and its great, but the lists of gear in each slot now are utterly tiresome to alt tab and look through when i just want a yes/no answer on a quest reward. tbh, it takes long enough scrolling down the list and finding the item i have got equipped, let alone the drop i'm looking to compare it to...

I use DruidStats. You can download it from Curse.com. Displays the "bottom line" of what a piece of gear will do. And if you didn't know, click Shift when hovering over an item in your inventory and it will bring up what you're currently equipped with allowing a better analysis.

#23 Dorlath

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 06:28 PM

On eclipse rotations, I've read most of the mega thread but don't recall the following being discussed. Why not wait until the cooldown is up, and then switch back and forth between your wrath and starfire until it procs to avoid wasting a cast that won't get the benefit? I'll test it myself when I get home from work, but would the first cast after the proc not get the benefit?

If it works, it would be superior in all cases to just casting the higher dps of the two than switching to the other when it procs.

It has some benefits over trying to proc the version that will let you use your higher dps spell whenever the cooldown is up as well. You would still proc the better version more than half the time assuming your made sure your first cast after the cooldown was up would be wrath if you wanted to proc for starfire and vise versa. And without the wasted casting time, your would get more benefit from it when you procced the right version.

Even when you do get the wrong proc, you haven't wasted cast time so it's not as much of a loss of dps as it would be. And since you're alternating casts, you have fewer casts of the weaker spell, pre proc that are lowering your dps.

EDIT:

Changed for a major math error as well as not factoring in that due to the nature of eclipse, the cast after the proc, will always receive the benefit of Nature's Grace. If wrath and starfire were dead even in dps, you would see about a 2.5% increase in dps during the eclipse if a starfire procced it and you than spammed wrath, using the alternating method, over spamming one cast till it procs, then switching. You would only see a 1.5% increase going the other way.

The exact number very heavily based on crit and spell haste. I put the break even point at least a 5% difference with 3/3 eclipse, it'll be a bit lower if you only have 1/3 due to it reducing the chance you'll proc the version you want, but certainly not less than 3%.

#24 Adoriele

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 06:36 PM

On eclipse rotations, I've read most of the mega thread but don't recall the following being discussed. Why not wait until the cooldown is up, and then switch back and forth between your wrath and starfire until it procs to avoid wasting a cast that won't get the benefit? I'll test it myself when I get home from work, but would the first cast after the proc not get the benefit?

If it works, it would be superior in all cases to just casting the higher dps of the two than switching to the other when it procs.

It has some benefits over trying to proc the version that will let you use your higher dps spell whenever the cooldown is up as well. You would still proc the better version more than half the time assuming your made sure your first cast after the cooldown was up would be wrath if you wanted to proc for starfire and vise versa. And without the wasted casting time, your would get more benefit from it when you procced the right version.

Even when you do get the wrong proc, you haven't wasted cast time so it's not as much of a loss of dps as it would be. And since you're alternating casts, you have fewer casts of the weaker spell, pre proc that are lowering your dps.


With a lot of haste I'm estimating that you'd do about 19% more damage with wrath during an eclipse or about 9% more damage with starfires. So if starfire was higher dps, you would still proc correctly more than half the time and do 9% more dps during it. So if you could do 91% of the damage during a wrath proc as you could with a starfire, this would be higher dps. But since you've gained 19% without the wasted cast time, you would end up ahead as long as wrath was at least 76.5% of starfire's dps. And that's without taking into account the previous listed factors which would make this rotation even better.


It's been mentioned, but not very thoroughly tested. I popped functionality for it into my sheet, but I don't think I fully implemented it yet. If I remember right, with a full loadout of DoTs, it ended up being a decrease over a Starfire-based rotation (using Wrath during Eclipse), and an increase of the other case, but this was well before the final version of Eclipse came up, so the results are dubious at best. It's something we're looking into, though.

#25 Dorlath

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 06:44 PM

It's been mentioned, but not very thoroughly tested. I popped functionality for it into my sheet, but I don't think I fully implemented it yet. If I remember right, with a full loadout of DoTs, it ended up being a decrease over a Starfire-based rotation (using Wrath during Eclipse), and an increase of the other case, but this was well before the final version of Eclipse came up, so the results are dubious at best. It's something we're looking into, though.


Yeah, my math was completely off though, I treating it as if the cast that was wasted did 0 dps or something. I blame not recovering from a weekend of too much WoW and too little sleep. I'll try to fix my numbers and edit my post.

#26 lissanna

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 08:54 PM

On eclipse rotations, I've read most of the mega thread but don't recall the following being discussed. Why not wait until the cooldown is up, and then switch back and forth between your wrath and starfire until it procs to avoid wasting a cast that won't get the benefit? I'll test it myself when I get home from work, but would the first cast after the proc not get the benefit?

If it works, it would be superior in all cases to just casting the higher dps of the two than switching to the other when it procs.


You still have to factor in the human reaction time involved with switching between spells, and realizing that you need to switch from your "switching between spells" to focus-casting whatever spell happened to proc the buff during your switching back and forth.

I think it would work okay in theory, and you may be able to work out some theoretical estimations for it, but I think that for most players, it won't help their damage at all due to reaction time problems. People tend to have higher and more consistent damage when they can count on a rotation, rather than purely reacting to whatever is going on. The human factor is pretty hard to model, but most people who play WoW are not going to be able to handle super hard and complicated spell switching things along with handling buffs/debuffs. It's easier to hit 1 22222 *proc* 33333333 (repeat) than it is to hit 1 232323 *proc* 22222222 1 23232 *proc* 33333333 (repeat with either 2222222 or 33333 happening depending on whether you ended the previous section on a 2 or a 3). At a certian point, when something becomes just too complicated, it's possible for the majority of WoW players to screw it up, and only a small number of players with enough skill to get it right.

#27 Dorlath

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:16 PM

You still have to factor in the human reaction time involved with switching between spells, and realizing that you need to switch from your "switching between spells" to focus-casting whatever spell happened to proc the buff during your switching back and forth.

I think it would work okay in theory, and you may be able to work out some theoretical estimations for it, but I think that for most players, it won't help their damage at all due to reaction time problems. People tend to have higher and more consistent damage when they can count on a rotation, rather than purely reacting to whatever is going on. The human factor is pretty hard to model, but most people who play WoW are not going to be able to handle super hard and complicated spell switching things along with handling buffs/debuffs. It's easier to hit 1 22222 *proc* 33333333 (repeat) than it is to hit 1 232323 *proc* 22222222 1 23232 *proc* 33333333 (repeat with either 2222222 or 33333 happening depending on whether you ended the previous section on a 2 or a 3). At a certian point, when something becomes just too complicated, it's possible for the majority of WoW players to screw it up, and only a small number of players with enough skill to get it right.


Granted, I've already got plans to help with that at least. I plan to write a little mod that will keep track of the cooldown/duration of eclipse and make sounds to warn me whenever I need to change what I'm doing. I find sounds warnings to be much easier to process and less confusing than having another timer to watch.

I don't expect it would be hard to get used to:

111111 *beep* 21212 *beep* 222222 *beep* 11111

nor do i think it would particularly distract from whatever else you're doing. I've had good experience with similar mods in the past.

#28 Foxe

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:47 PM

Can someone parse the priority of stats on gear for Moonkin? I've been feral my entire career and I really want to stop the whole melee gig and just stand in back and nuke. Not sure what I should be looking for in terms of gear.

#29 rubik

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:18 PM

I am using Itemvalue (Updated version: http://static.wowace...-clone-r106.zip) paired with the Scale Factors from Simulationcraft to find out if a new item is better than my current one.

If you're just looking for a Ratingsbuster that is more simple, try Ratings from wowace. You'd probably want something like Itemvalue though, or any of its many alternatives. (Pawn etc.)


On this same subject, can anyone recommend a list of updated (i.e. for use with Pawn or ItemValue) stat weights/multipliers for Feral (Cat) gear (the simulationcraft site mentioned above only has caster/Moonkin stat values, unless I'm completely missing anything Feral).

Just trying to figure out if there's any reason whatsoever to hang on to any of the (green) quest rewards while leveling from 70-75 or so (exception being some arguably decent trinket or cloak here and there)... for someone like me who's only wearing mediocre (BoJ/casual guild, stuck in early stages of MH/BT) level gear going into WLK.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

#30 Kasch

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 01:45 AM

On this same subject, can anyone recommend a list of updated (i.e. for use with Pawn or ItemValue) stat weights/multipliers for Feral (Cat) gear (the simulationcraft site mentioned above only has caster/Moonkin stat values, unless I'm completely missing anything Feral).

Just trying to figure out if there's any reason whatsoever to hang on to any of the (green) quest rewards while leveling from 70-75 or so (exception being some arguably decent trinket or cloak here and there)... for someone like me who's only wearing mediocre (BoJ/casual guild, stuck in early stages of MH/BT) level gear going into WLK.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


I've been looking for exactly the same thing. I've been holding onto most quest rewards because it gets a bit iffier. Having something to weigh feral stats would be nice, as well as for bear form (got a ring that may be nice, but I'm not sure how to take Rawr recently)

#31 Beace

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:00 AM

Rawr can give you weights for each stat. Check "Relative stat value".

I think the expertise/hit rating is bugged though, because it's showing very low numbers for me that just isn't right.

This can be combined with Loot Rank for WOLTK for a different kind of overview than rawr gives.

#32 coldbear

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 05:27 AM

First post in Cat/Bear should have a small list of indispensable addons and macros, a one-line description of what they do and where to go get information on how to set it up.

Example:
Heatsink - Ace cooldown tracker. WoWinterface for more info.
DoTimer - tracks cooldowns, Savage Roar uptime, bleeds and other debuffs. Steep learning curve, ton of customizability.
TellMeWhen - cooldowns, debuffs, won't show durations left, simpler addon.
KnowItAll - very easy to set up debuff tracker.

In other news I'm working on figuring out a simple way to get DoTimer to rip the Savage Roar buff from your default buff bar to the middle of the screen where you really need it.

Cat Tracking needs:
Mangle debuff
Trauma debuff
Rake debuff
Rip debuff
Pounce (bleed part only) debuff - the stun part isn't hard to just get a feel for imo.
Faerie Fire (Feral) debuff - not as crucial as the other, since you usually apply it once and then don't worry about it for a good 30sec.
Savage Roar selfbuff - absolutely crucial, and having to glance up in a corner to see what the time is on it just won't cut it.
Tiger's Fury CD
Berserk CD
Cower CD
Shadowmeld CD
Feral Charge - Cat CD
Maim CD - more of a pvp issue
Barkskin CD - same
Survival Instincts CD - same
Hibernate/Roots/Cyclone debuff on focustarget - occasionally

Bear tracking needs:
Mangle debuff
Lacerate debuff stacking
Mangle - Bear CD
Growl CD
Enrage CD
Demoralizing Roar debuff
Challenging Roar CD
Berserk CD
Barkskin CD
Feral Charge - Bear CD
Faerie Fire (Feral) debuff and CD
Survival Instincts CD
Hibernate/Roots/Cyclone debuff on focustarget - occasionally

Now, the question becomes how to keep track of all that stuff. Which addons and why. How to keep those addons updated. All of which doesn't need to be answered in the Cat/Bear threads, but there should be some pointers to where to find those answers imo, and maybe even a quick walkthrough of how to set the stuff up.

EDIT 1: Ok, so maybe this wasn't a simple question, but if someone can point me in the direction of how to get something set up to easily track all of this stuff in a more user-friendly way than the stock UI, I'd be grateful. Or if someone can tell me how to get Savage Roar more easily tracked by DoTimer in the middle of my screen that'd be great. Hey, i think I just figured it out. Keep Blizzard Buffs checked in the advanced PlayerAuras tab, have the addon PlayerAuras enabled, and block everything but Savage Roar, then move the PlayerAuras anchor to wherever you need.

2: Nope, too clunky a solution. The search for a way to simply a quickly set up a UI to track essential Bear and Cat cooldowns, target debuffs and Savage Roar continues. Anyone? Anyone can tell me what 'Von Kaiser' signifies?

#33 Duilliath

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:46 AM

DoTimer for debuffs. So far it's caught everything I need. If you're using Pitbull you can use Dog tags to denote specific debuffs on your target (currently I've edited it for MS/Crippling/Mind Numbing or corresponding debuffs only, but can easily include Mangle etc).

Class Cooldown Buttons for (you guessed it) Cooldowns.

Von Kaiser is a posting rank and really not that interesting for the thread at hand :P
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#34 tr33hugger

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 11:10 AM

I have played around with lootrank a little and wonder what numbers i should fill in for crit/hit/haste/int/sd etc. Any ideas?

#35 charriu

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 11:51 AM

Example:
Heatsink - Ace cooldown tracker. WoWinterface for more info.
DoTimer - tracks cooldowns, Savage Roar uptime, bleeds and other debuffs. Steep learning curve, ton of customizability.
TellMeWhen - cooldowns, debuffs, won't show durations left, simpler addon.
KnowItAll - very easy to set up debuff tracker.

In other news I'm working on figuring out a simple way to get DoTimer to rip the Savage Roar buff from your default buff bar to the middle of the screen where you really need it.

[...]

Now, the question becomes how to keep track of all that stuff. Which addons and why. How to keep those addons updated. All of which doesn't need to be answered in the Cat/Bear threads, but there should be some pointers to where to find those answers imo, and maybe even a quick walkthrough of how to set the stuff up.

EDIT 1: Ok, so maybe this wasn't a simple question, but if someone can point me in the direction of how to get something set up to easily track all of this stuff in a more user-friendly way than the stock UI, I'd be grateful. Or if someone can tell me how to get Savage Roar more easily tracked by DoTimer in the middle of my screen that'd be great. Hey, i think I just figured it out. Keep Blizzard Buffs checked in the advanced PlayerAuras tab, have the addon PlayerAuras enabled, and block everything but Savage Roar, then move the PlayerAuras anchor to wherever you need.


I use ClassTimer for most of the stuff. Pretty neat bars out of the box for pretty much everything except cooldowns - you really want to have DoTimer set up for them.

If you don't like that solution, Ash_Prominence, which comes with DoTimer if I'm not mistaken (at work, so no access to my addons), can pull out buffs/debuffs you specify as a separate bar. That way, you can still have PlayerAuras to track different stuff, if you want.

#36 dukes

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 01:16 PM

I'm using Elks Buff Bars (->) for buff/debuff tracking. I currently have 7 different sets of buff bars set up, with a main buff bar on the right showing main buffs, a smaller buff bar in the centre of my screen showing "power buffs" (procs/etc), another small one in the centre showing other players useful debuffs, another showing my debuffs for moonfire/IS/ff, another one showing my hots on a friendly player, etc.

It takes a bit of customising, but you can have bars all over the place for all the different things you want to show, down to a single buff bar for a single ability, all the way up to a bar showing pretty much everything. The only thing it doesn't keep track of is dots/hots on entities you haven't targetted (the options are self, focus and target iirc).

For cooldowns - you can use something like CooldownButtons (->) or CooldownTimers (->) for that, or Dottimer as Charriu suggested.

You could also try setting up Power Auras (->) for stuff like cooldowns, and showing when things like bloodlust/trinkets are active.

#37 Erdluf

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 01:19 PM

Can someone parse the priority of stats on gear for Moonkin? I've been feral my entire career and I really want to stop the whole melee gig and just stand in back and nuke. Not sure what I should be looking for in terms of gear.


For minor adjustments to your existing gear, Rawr is probably the best choice. For weights from a sample gearset, Simulationcraft sample output shows these reasonable numbers (DPS/point) for a mostly-SF rotation:

Int: .3
Spirit: .2
Spellpower: 1.2
Hit: 1.7
Crit: .8
Haste: 1

#38 Carnacki

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:21 PM

A friend informed me today that the Mana regen from intensity and Dreamstate doesn't stack. Based on my stats I'm sure they DO stack. 505 int = 50mp5 and 301 spi giving another ~70mp5 with intensity + 10mp5 from gear = my total in combat 130mp5 that I see on armory. But I'd like to confirm.

And another "debunking" request, I've had people telling me that "old" (ie: TBC gear) is innately worse. That somehow a piece with 70 spellpower from TBC is worse than a piece with 70 spellpower from WotLK. Never mind the fact that the WotLK pieces probably have a ton more stam/int/spi... the argument is that level 70 gear spellpower is somehow worse than level 80. I'm not seeing anything to support the idea based on the damage I'm seeing while leveling but again confirmation would be nice :)

#39 thedopefishlives

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:21 PM

On eclipse rotations, I've read most of the mega thread but don't recall the following being discussed. Why not wait until the cooldown is up, and then switch back and forth between your wrath and starfire until it procs to avoid wasting a cast that won't get the benefit? I'll test it myself when I get home from work, but would the first cast after the proc not get the benefit?

If it works, it would be superior in all cases to just casting the higher dps of the two than switching to the other when it procs.

It has some benefits over trying to proc the version that will let you use your higher dps spell whenever the cooldown is up as well. You would still proc the better version more than half the time assuming your made sure your first cast after the cooldown was up would be wrath if you wanted to proc for starfire and vise versa. And without the wasted casting time, your would get more benefit from it when you procced the right version.

Even when you do get the wrong proc, you haven't wasted cast time so it's not as much of a loss of dps as it would be. And since you're alternating casts, you have fewer casts of the weaker spell, pre proc that are lowering your dps.


Rawr.Moonkin has some support for spell switching to force Eclipse procs. From what I've seen, the math just doesn't work out that way in practice. Due to human reaction time and latency, switching between spells is considered a very expensive operation.

[edit] To reply to the poster above: I don't know who you're talking to, but you should probably stop talking to them. ;) Intensity and Dreamstate stack just fine, and there is nothing different about spellpower from the first level 40ish green to Naxx25 epics. Not to say you shouldn't be replacing your level 70 gear with WotLK items anyway, but there's no "level" of spellpower that makes a 70 spellpower WotLK item any better than a 70 spellpower TBC item.

#40 Boevis

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:25 PM

A friend informed me today that the Mana regen from intensity and Dreamstate doesn't stack. Based on my stats I'm sure they DO stack. 505 int = 50mp5 and 301 spi giving another ~70mp5 with intensity + 10mp5 from gear = my total in combat 130mp5 that I see on armory. But I'd like to confirm.

And another "debunking" request, I've had people telling me that "old" (ie: TBC gear) is innately worse. That somehow a piece with 70 spellpower from TBC is worse than a piece with 70 spellpower from WotLK. Never mind the fact that the WotLK pieces probably have a ton more stam/int/spi... the argument is that level 70 gear spellpower is somehow worse than level 80. I'm not seeing anything to support the idea based on the damage I'm seeing while leveling but again confirmation would be nice :)


Whoever these "people" are that are telling you these things, my advice is to stop discussing WoW with them, as you'll likely offend them when you constantly correct them. Your first friend may have been referring to the fact that MP5 and mana regen from Spirit are different things, so you don't get more mp5 while casting ... or something. You have it correct though, mp5 from Dreamstate + mp5 from gear + *mp5 from spirit, and only the mp5 from spirit is affected by the 5 second rule and Intensity at all.

I don't even understand how anyone could come up with that second one. The value of a stat is tied to your level (in the case of combat ratings and crit/dodge from int/agi) not to the level of the item it's on. The only difference I could see would be that you can fit more other stats on the same piece, thus making a level 70 item with 70 spellpower worse than a level 80 item with 70 spellpower 20 int and 20 stamina, but still, it's the item that is worse, not the Spellpower on it.




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