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Mage: Simple Questions/Simple Answers


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#21 Roywyn

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 08:03 PM

Does anyone have a link to a 0/53/18 spec? I've got a basic idea of what talents I want but I want to ensure I snag all the right ones.

Also, hit rating for the same spec. I know with the removal of the 1% we could never get, Fire hit rating went from 164 higher, but exactly how high did it go? I've heard a few different numbers thrown out but I'm looking for a raw hit rating without considering any other class or race talents/racials.

Just grab everything that increases Frostfire Bolt damage and mana efficency.
Fire side lets you choose between "World in Flames" and "BW+DB+stuff", or grab both and lose range/pushback talents (not advised).
Frost is Ice Shards, Icy Veins, Elemental Precision, Piercing Ice. And Frost Channeling for mana, but you may also want 1 point in Imp. Blizzard and 3 points in Shatter if you go for more AoE power on slowable/freezable and less mana efficiency.
Or you cut Fire down to 51 to get 20 points in frost to get those AoE talents.

A sample of 0/53/18 with garbabe AoE would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Mage WotLK thread has a whole section for hit rating.

In this perspective, focus magic is a 6 % crit talent (and you will never benefit another classes!), will it make FB dps higher than FFB?

Check the mage post, Rawr, Simcraft, Magegraf or my signature.

TtW

From my tests on live, Infectious Wounds works with TtW and can be applied to bosses, at least to those in the Nexus or Utgarde low level dungeons.
This is however counterintuitive, as it would mean that the best situation for a raid would be TtW specced mages and the requirement to bring an IW specced druide along. If I understand Blizzard correctly, this is exactly not what they intended.

What did you test it on?

It definately doesn't trigger Torment on the elite harpy on Storm Peaks.
She's not slowable, Infected Wounds do apply, damage is not increased.

Which bosses did it increase damage on for you, and how exact was your testing?
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#22 Valean

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:28 PM

Just grab everything that increases Frostfire Bolt damage and mana efficency.
Fire side lets you choose between "World in Flames" and "BW+DB+stuff", or grab both and lose range/pushback talents (not advised).
Frost is Ice Shards, Icy Veins, Elemental Precision, Piercing Ice. And Frost Channeling for mana, but you may also want 1 point in Imp. Blizzard and 3 points in Shatter if you go for more AoE power on slowable/freezable and less mana efficiency.
Or you cut Fire down to 51 to get 20 points in frost to get those AoE talents.

A sample of 0/53/18 with garbabe AoE would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Mage WotLK thread has a whole section for hit rating.


Check the mage post, Rawr, Simcraft, Magegraf or my signature.


What did you test it on?

It definately doesn't trigger Torment on the elite harpy on Storm Peaks.
She's not slowable, Infected Wounds do apply, damage is not increased.

Which bosses did it increase damage on for you, and how exact was your testing?


Thanks for the help! One last question is spell rotation. Do I substitute FFB for Fireball in my Scorch x 5, Fireball x 7, Scorch x 1 rotation?

Sorry for sounding silly, I haven't raided seriously in about a year and lots of stuff has changed. I leveled to 80 as arcane but I've become frustrated with it.

#23 Pheroz

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:34 PM

For the 0/53/18 Build that Roywyn Posted the single target boss DPS rotation is a little more complex then your used to, but it is still fairly simple.

Reapply Scorch before the debuff wears off, but as close to that time as possible.
If Living Bomb is not on the boss, reapply living bomb (as Mana allows, and use max mana consumables as needed to ensure that Mana allows)
If Hot Streak Has procc'd, cast an instant Pyroblast.
If not doing one of the 3 things above, spam Frostfire bolt.

Beyond that, there's cooldown management, movement issues and whatever other major issues you may have to contend with in an ingame, sustained DPS situation.

#24 Jonny_Monroe

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:06 AM

I've been playing around with some FFb specs for instance and grinding and I've come across a point where I struggle to choose which tree's AoE I should be using.

-Blizzard's DPS is mad, but using it in solo situations requires 6 talent points I wouldn't otherwise take.
-Flamestrike, when stacking 2 ranks, is awesome DPS and most of the time I'm able to hit all mobs with it. I only really need 2 extra talent points to get it instant after a DB.
-Stacking both of the above in tanked, static AoE (like 4 mobs elite packs in violet hold) gives nice results but I'd rather cut the talents from either frost or fire and just focus on 1.
-I'm pretty sure my solo AoE won't be hurt from only using 1 of the above rather than both. Which leads me to:

Based on maths, anecdotal evidence or both; which AoE am I better off taking as Frostfire?
OMNOMNOM.

#25 Fireflash38

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 01:51 PM

I've been playing around with some FFb specs for instance and grinding and I've come across a point where I struggle to choose which tree's AoE I should be using.

-Blizzard's DPS is mad, but using it in solo situations requires 6 talent points I wouldn't otherwise take.
-Flamestrike, when stacking 2 ranks, is awesome DPS and most of the time I'm able to hit all mobs with it. I only really need 2 extra talent points to get it instant after a DB.
-Stacking both of the above in tanked, static AoE (like 4 mobs elite packs in violet hold) gives nice results but I'd rather cut the talents from either frost or fire and just focus on 1.
-I'm pretty sure my solo AoE won't be hurt from only using 1 of the above rather than both. Which leads me to:

Based on maths, anecdotal evidence or both; which AoE am I better off taking as Frostfire?



Are you planning on AoE grinding? If not, then don't go for blizzard.

To get the full benefits of Blizzard, you need Permafrost, Imp Blizzard, Shatter, Ice Shards, Frostbite, Fingers of Frost, and Chilled to the Bone. No Frostfire spec will be getting those. Still, Blizzard is really powerful. so in instances with AoE, use Flamestrike to toss up the dot, then Blizzard, and repeat.

#26 Dustwhisper

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:10 PM

Is a frostfirebuild really worth it pre-80? Right now experimenting with frostbuilds I'm having close to zero downtime with mage armor up. Nice critmodifiers and MOE I can see doing good but will it be as little downtime as frost equivalents (especially with clearcasting) ?

#27 Lgs

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:39 PM

While raiding Naxx and OS last week, I noticed that scorch is taking longer to reapply itself. eg I the spell would leave with 1 second (and possibly more than 1 second in some cases) left on the debuff, and not be reapplied in time. Also, if cast in the middle of the timer it still takes a couple seconds for the timer to reset.

Is this for all scorches or just glyphed? I am hoping it's not just me.

#28 LiquidHAL

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 04:44 PM

Is a frostfirebuild really worth it pre-80? Right now experimenting with frostbuilds I'm having close to zero downtime with mage armor up. Nice critmodifiers and MOE I can see doing good but will it be as little downtime as frost equivalents (especially with clearcasting) ?


I would definitely not recommend it for leveling. The main DPS advantage is the big crits with ignite, but more often than not ignite will be wasted as regular mobs will simply die from the initial crit damage. That DPS advantage is also only calculated for bosses that are immune to freezing effects. With frost nova and WE's freeze you can always have shatter combos going off, pushing frost way ahead of FFB.

One of my favorite tools leveling was a fully talented blizzard (w/permafrost, frostbite, chilled to the bone, etc.), many quests can be completed in 1-2 pulls by just AOE'ing them down, and there are tons of random packs along the way.

I never even bothered looking at efficiency though. I quested and there's so much traveling time and a higher than previous percentage non-kill and vehicle quests that if you go through questing, you'll almost never have to worry about mana.

#29 manly

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 04:50 PM

pretty sure thats the good ole buff/debuff delaying that has been pervading wow for quite some while.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
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#30 Salus

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 05:50 PM

pretty sure thats the good ole buff/debuff delaying that has been pervading wow for quite some while.


I have seen this, but I always assumed it had more to do with latency than an actual bug. Given how heavy the load is on most servers right now, I would suspect a 1 second delay could easily be added into the equation.

#31 Drehnix

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 07:14 PM

I would like to know if "Torment the weak" works on boss just with a FrostFireBolt. Does the FFB apply the slowing buff on bosses ?

Thank you.

#32 enthrop

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 07:16 PM

... but am at a loss for what values to assign to each stat. I am currently level 74. I'll be going frostfire (0/50/16) at 75 and plan on going 0/53/18, as I hear it's currently the dps king.

So my question is: What sort of values should I assign to each stat as a general rule of thumb based on a frostfire build?


Sorry Aidan, but I don't actually have an answer. I actually have the same exact question.

I've been reading all the stuff about how much spell hit & spell crit = 1% and such, but I'm not sure how to bring it all together in deciding what is better than what. I figure that until I get to level 80 and start replacing gear w/ raid content gear, I don't need to simulate every quest item drop out there, yet I want to be able to evaluate gear.

In 2.4, there was a thread (http://elitistjerks....8-mage_pve_dps/) that listed EP values for various stats given different levels of gear (eg pre-kara, T5, T6). I've been looking around, but can't find something similar yet.

So my question is twofold: (1) Does equivalent values exist today? (2) If not, how can I derive those values? Is there some explanation somewhere that I can mimic?

#33 Seonid

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:09 AM

Post deleted, will PM self not to post when tired.

#34 Sprintsz

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 05:36 AM

Just a quick question if someone can answer it.

Was FFB spec but am now hit capped without elemental precision, is it worth speccing FB spec 19/52/0 or the likes now that i'm hit capped, with the crappy crit we have atm 23% with molten armor will FB spec pull ahead of FFB since FB hits for alot more then FFB non crit?

#35 TheFairey

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 07:10 AM

-Flamestrike, when stacking 2 ranks, is awesome DPS and most of the time I'm able to hit all mobs with it. I only really need 2 extra talent points to get it instant after a DB.
-Stacking both of the above in tanked, static AoE (like


I thought I read they'd fixed this?

#36 Jonny_Monroe

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 07:24 AM

Are you planning on AoE grinding? If not, then don't go for blizzard.

To get the full benefits of Blizzard, you need Permafrost, Imp Blizzard, Shatter, Ice Shards, Frostbite, Fingers of Frost, and Chilled to the Bone. No Frostfire spec will be getting those. Still, Blizzard is really powerful. so in instances with AoE, use Flamestrike to toss up the dot, then Blizzard, and repeat.


You only need 1 in permafrost and Imp. Blizzard, Frostbite and Ice shards are already taken in an FFB build. In instances the chills and freezes don't really matter and for solo grinding as FFB I have DB, BW and impact. I really, really don't need any extra CC with my AoE. A BW + Blizzard combo procing impact and frostbite along with the daze is ample for taking out most groups. The problem is that I can just as easilly use instant FS after a BW for similar results. It feels like overkill to get both and that leads to my post asking which to go for. In instances, again, I'm honestly struggling to see which gives better results.

Oh, and I'm not sold on FoF helping blizzard's crit rate. It only procs on Frostbites and frostbite will hold for 3-4 waves of blizzard whilst FoF is gone in 2.

Is a frostfirebuild really worth it pre-80? Right now experimenting with frostbuilds I'm having close to zero downtime with mage armor up. Nice critmodifiers and MOE I can see doing good but will it be as little downtime as frost equivalents (especially with clearcasting) ?


I would definitely not recommend it for leveling. The main DPS advantage is the big crits with ignite, but more often than not ignite will be wasted as regular mobs will simply die from the initial crit damage. That DPS advantage is also only calculated for bosses that are immune to freezing effects. With frost nova and WE's freeze you can always have shatter combos going off, pushing frost way ahead of FFB.


I've had 0 downtime using single-target Frostfire grinding. Obviously there is downtime for AoE pulls but to my knowledge that's true of all specs. Also, Frostfire for me is critting harder even before ignite. On average it takes me 3.5 bolts to take down a mob and between Frostbite and Impact, they never reach me. I find than the survivability talents in middle and lower frost are just too much for levelling on. If you need ice barrier or CttB for single-target then something is wrong.

-------------------------------------

Since this post I've decided to drop Blizzard AoE in favour of fire (specifically flamestrike). I've simply had far better results with it in instances and solo. I've taken some videos showing comparisons of the 2 I'll link once I'm done editing them; just in case anyone is interested in seeing how they play.
OMNOMNOM.

#37 Jonny_Monroe

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:34 AM

I thought I read they'd fixed this?


As of last night: no. When the servers come back up I'll look again.
OMNOMNOM.

#38 willem11

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:04 PM

Just a quick question if someone can answer it.

Was FFB spec but am now hit capped without elemental precision, is it worth speccing FB spec 19/52/0 or the likes now that i'm hit capped, with the crappy crit we have atm 23% with molten armor will FB spec pull ahead of FFB since FB hits for alot more then FFB non crit?


Good question, since many people still have the 4 t6 bonus fire might actually be a better choice untill your full t7 geared (you can even keep wearing 4 t7/4 t6 even after you gotten your t7 set. And I doubt the 'tier 7' belt/boots/bracers in naxx or from badges are that much of an upgrade that its worth spending dkp/badges on for a while (taking the 5% bonus in consideration) untill you get all 3 of them. So you can spend it on other gear.

All of this does not work for frostfire wich is quite annoying.

From my own point of view my dps in 10 man naxx wasnt any higher after speccing from frost to firefrost.

Oh and in heroics (stratholme timed run for example) frost is way superior to any fire/frostfire spec. Fully specced blizzard is just insane in 5 mans where you aoe down everything.

#39 Roywyn

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:06 PM

Oh, and I'm not sold on FoF helping blizzard's crit rate. It only procs on Frostbites and frostbite will hold for 3-4 waves of blizzard whilst FoF is gone in 2.

FoF is actually gone after 1 wave.
Which is good, because it applies Shatter to the whole wave while Frostbite only applies Shatter to one target.

So for Blizzard AoE, FoF works like "you have a 15% per target to gain 50% crit for the next wave".
At least that's what it looked like when I tested it in beta.

In 2.4, there was a thread (http://elitistjerks....8-mage_pve_dps/) that listed EP values for various stats given different levels of gear (eg pre-kara, T5, T6). I've been looking around, but can't find something similar yet.

So my question is twofold: (1) Does equivalent values exist today? (2) If not, how can I derive those values? Is there some explanation somewhere that I can mimic?

Rawr, Simcraft, Magegraf and Zaldinar's TCOM spit out stat weightings. And probably half a dozen more tools.


[Edit]: Ghost hit on Frostfire Bolt
It seems that FFB gets 6% or even more hit from Elemental Precision from eyeballing some Patchwerk/Naxx logs on Wowwebstats.
FFB resist rates are consistently significantly below Pyro/Bomb/Mirror Image resist rates.
Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks....p2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.c...ki/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks....0-post3191.html

And doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does since 3.1.

#40 enthrop

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:39 PM

Rawr, Simcraft, Magegraf and Zaldinar's TCOM spit out stat weightings. And probably half a dozen more tools.


I've been playing w/ Rawr, and can't seem to figure out where it displays stat weightings.

Also, in my guild, I am the only mage at the moment (we're trying to recruit more). As a result, I've disabled lots of things in Rawr like having another mage keeping scorch up and such. I've put in some standard specs (eg frostfire, arcane, deep arcane, fire, frost, etc.), and I see anything that goes 'deep' into frost to get water elemental > frostfire > everything else. My suspicion is that rawr's simulator is doing something like.. popping water elemental + CDs + cold snap + elemental again... I do admit when I've dps'd as frost, I've had a nice boost to my dps as a result of an elemental... but is there a way in rawr to disable that? Or should I not? And that maybe with my crap gear, I should remain dps'ing in frost until I get better?

Essentially, I guess I'm asking.. how do people tend to model the use of a water elemental?

Also, I've played w/ Simcraft a bit and it seems to be more geared towards simulating a raid. As a consequence, if I want accurate results of individual specs, should I run Simcraft as a 1-man raid? And simply change the spec of that 1 person? Or can I plug in 5 mages in 1 Simcraft file and compare them side by side?




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