Jump to content


Photo

Priest: Simple Questions/Simple Answers


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
2077 replies to this topic

#2061 Elimbras

Elimbras

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 477 posts

Posted 02 December 2010 - 07:41 PM

Additionally, there is no more 5 second rule in Cataclysm. You have regen in fight and regen outside fight.
The only interest of not using immediatly Inner focus is if you will cast a more expensive Inner focus friendly spell soon, and reserve it for that spell. But given the short cd, it really shall be soon.

#2062 switch_foot4

switch_foot4

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 02 December 2010 - 10:02 PM

Okay. Zorat i definitely remember using inner focus back in the day to extend mana regen with the 5sr but that definitely no longer exists and hasn't for a looong time.

What I'm thinking is the best way to get the full use out of it is to be using it every single time its available since it has such a short cooldown and the best way to do that is to macro it into every spell it would use. Does anyone see a fallacy in that logic?

My second question is really multipart. its in regards to train of thought. Wouldn't talent points be better spent taking Mental Agility and Empowered Healing? here's a few questions that I'm really on the fence about in regards to that.

How often am i going to be using greater heal instead of heal? Mana-wise the 2 points for train of thought seem to me like they would be better spent in either mental agility (cheaper PWS, PoM) or empowered healing (15% stronger heals). If i'm spamming GH with train of thought, i can use inner focus roughly every 15 seconds. But how often am i going to spam GH? and wouldn't 15% stronger GH's (and heal, binding heal, flash heal) come out as a better choice then a free heal every 7 or 8 casts?

So with that in mind I was planning out my level 85 heroic disc healing build and I was thinking something like this
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Focusing on getting my instants out for cheaper (mental agility) since i will pretty much be casting PWS and PoM a whole ton. A 15% stronger heal (empowered healing) that also reduces the duration of weakened soul (strength of soul) so i can refresh PWS on the tank more quickly also seemed like a good choice. And the last 2 points going into spell haste so i can get those heals out quicker seemed better to me than putting them into improved renew since i'm not sure how often i would use renew. Thoughts on this?

#2063 Elerion

Elerion

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 861 posts

Posted 02 December 2010 - 10:33 PM

What I'm thinking is the best way to get the full use out of it is to be using it every single time its available since it has such a short cooldown and the best way to do that is to macro it into every spell it would use. Does anyone see a fallacy in that logic?

The only potential fallacy is that IF changes the nature of the spells slightly (no mana cost and increased crit), which could cause spell priorities to change. However, the mana costs of the four relevant abilities are so similar that it's not likely to shift priorities enough to worry about. The increased crit could potentially shift spell priorities if you're worried about Inspiration or Aegis on particular targets, but that would probably be a very fight specific thing.

As far as I can see, macroing will produce the best results in the vast majority of cases.

#2064 Kaubel

Kaubel

    Sledgehammer Emeritus

  • Guild Members
  • 24,561 posts

Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:17 AM

Here's an idea: test it and get back to us. These forums are about facts, not guesses and anecdotes; and, like always, we're not going to allow a bunch of stupid "I played around with the talent calculator" posts just because the expansion is almost out.

#2065 Lhyssa

Lhyssa

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:06 AM

Is it really REALLY worth taking 2 points into State of Mind at all? My logic behind this is that as it stands (well, until I start healing heavily in Cata which I know will change things) - I'm not finding it difficult or impairing my healing at all to pop Chakra every time it's up. I don't even see a mana cost/penalty for doing so. I'm almost wondering if it would be worth taking the points out of SoM and throwing them into Test of Faith because I notice that the way things have been going now with guild runs, etc. I'd rather have the stronger heal for the most injured player than have a couple second shorter CD for something that may or may not actually be useable to save them when they need it.


In my experience, it is a quality of life thing. Since you can refresh your Chakra while it is already active (so that you always have the effect after the first time you cast it), one point in State of Mind is enough to maintain 100% if you pay enough attention and refresh it as soon as the CD is up, but before the state runs out.

If you have no points in SoM, then you will have at least one cast per uptime unaffected by the buff, and that's assuming that you as a player perfectly maintain the Chakra state. I suggest at least one point, so that you can refresh and not be in a position where it's not logical to cast Heal or PoM or PoH for a few moments, and you end up without the Chakra state for an extended period of time.

Two points in many scenarios I played on beta was generally enough to keep the state up close to indefinitely (Heal Chakra while healing a tank, certainly, the AoE one gets a bit fuzzy, and has been changed since I last played at 85).

In my tests last raid, PoH wasn't giving multiple extentions to my PoH Chakra state (2-4 sec of uptime instead of 2-4 sec per person hit). Is that a bug fix or are others still getting multiple SoM refreshes from one PoH?

#2066 Lhyssa

Lhyssa

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 58 posts

Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:38 AM

I really think that 1% haste is currently the worst option. 1% haste for one talent points seems weak with the new reduced trees.
It compares unfavorably with Twin Disciplines (2% healing is in most cases better than 1% haste, unless healing is really really about frantic reactions to focused deadly incoming damage).
And as long as we are mana constrained, mana regeneration is usually better than haste.


3% haste is still 3% extra healing. Weaker than TD obviously, but with rating being 3x the cost it is currently, still valuable assuming your mana regen is sufficient for the tier, as mana remaining at the end of a fight is wasted mana. It is the only other throughput talent in the early parts of Disc and Shadow that apply to all our spells, making it still highly valuable to consider. Just because healing isn't supposed to be entirely reaction time based on Cata doesn't make haste worthless, especially when learning content where your raid may take more damage because they haven't mastered the mechanics, and healing may be a bit frantic still.

With an MP value of 85,000, a reasonable amount of buffed mana for a starting 85 caster, Shadowfiend restores 25,500 mana for an effective mp5 value of 425 mp5 assuming it used once every five minutes. Reducing the cooldown by one minute makes Shadowfiend worth 531 mp5, making VS worth 106 mp5. This is actually somewhat misleading math, since VS actually becomes valuable when it means that you can cast the fiend an extra time per fight or at a better time (you run out of mana at the four minute mark after having used fiend once in the fight or can time it better to get more effective use out of it), and because actual SF usage in a raid isn't always on CD, and certainly isn't at the pull.

I ignored HoH + SF usage, as while it is maximized, I don't consider it something you can both always do or will have up for every SF usage.

So basically, if you need throughput, take Darkness. If you need mana regen, take Veiled Shadows. If you're working on hard modes or a fight where your survivability or mobility have been an issue, take Inner Sanctum. (Obviously, MA and TD are givens). I don't think we can definitively say that any of these talents is flat best until we have a better idea of the healing environment, and even then it's going to depend more on the fight than anything.

#2067 flo-joe86

flo-joe86

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:12 AM

3% haste is still 3% extra healing.


I would not sign that.
You only will gain 3% more heals in the same time, which sometimes ends up in 3% additional healing, assuming that you do not stop casting and using every GCD!
Futher more, the increasing healoutput by casting more heals always comes along with heightend mana wastage.
Therefore you have to attune your gear and talents to the particular raid environment instead of insisting on a steady talent specc.

#2068 Elimbras

Elimbras

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 477 posts

Posted 03 December 2010 - 03:15 PM

3% haste is still 3% extra healing.


I've not played in beta, so I would not put too much weight on my words. But if Blizzard manages their "mana matters" and "healing is triage" mantras, then things are not as easy as haste = throughput and mana = regen.

It seems we'll be able easily to burn our whole mana in a fight, even gearing for regen. Just spam flash heal, and you'll get a high hps, but won't sustain it. Hence, more mana also means more throughput, because we will be able to use that additionnal mana for more expensive higher hps spells.

Similarly, haste might allow us to use cheaper more efficient spells, because they'll have an increased throughput.

I guess that one correct approach would be to view this talent as gear cost.
1% haste is equivalent to 128 haste rating, so Darkness is about 128 rating per point.
At about 4900 intellect (which seems reasonable for epic 359 gear), each point of spirit is worth 0.003345 * 5 * sqrt(4900) ~ 1.17 MP5 (man, is it so much ????). This is halved in fight. It means that Veiled shadows is about 2*53/1.17 ~ 90 rating per talent point (actually, the first one is a little worst than the second one).

The conclusion is sometimes easy. As spirit and haste can be "exchanged" freely, if you're not fully set for spirit, it is better to pick up Darkness and reforge some haste into spirit than take Veiled shadows and reforge spirit into haste.

Now, remember that we can't compare apples and oranges that easily. The previous conclusion was easy : one case was yielding more oranges AND more bananas than the other one (or the same amount of oranges and more bananas, depending on the setup). I don't have yet a good model to compare the value of one haste rating and one MP5 (or x spirit). But when lacking regen, the "best" stat has often been additional regen / mana. So, please draw no immediate conclusion from these "rating equivalent" if you've grab as much spirit as you could. It can still be the correct decision to pick up veilded shadow.

#2069 flo-joe86

flo-joe86

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 03 December 2010 - 03:48 PM

I guess that one correct approach would be to view this talent as gear cost.
1% haste is equivalent to 128 haste rating, so Darkness is about 128 rating per point.


1% Haste via buffs or talents like Darkness is not euivalent to 128 haste rating!
f.e.: you've got 1024 haste rating (8%). With 3 points invested into Darkness you gain 11,24% haste (which means 1439 haste rating), an additional 415 haste rating (instead of 384 haste rating).
The reason for that is that these talents and buffs scale multiplicative with haste rating.

But: Is there any occasion to compare VS with Darkness?
I thought Lhyssa explained the gain of VS already.

#2070 Viper45

Viper45

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 03 December 2010 - 05:33 PM

But: Is there any occasion to compare VS with Darkness?
I thought Lhyssa explained the gain of VS already.

Some builds do not allow, with good conscience, the ability to take both VA and Darkness. Combine this with the possibility that specific stats from gear may be low (RNG for drops/rolls, etc). Additionally, boss mechanics, group composition, and smaller guilds forcing healers into specific roles will effect this too. Thus, comparing which ability to take still seems important and can only be done by the individual.

#2071 Centaurée

Centaurée

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:55 PM

I used the search function but didn't find anything regarding racial advantages for healing priests.

Is there a consensus yet on the best race right now for PvE alliance priests ?

#2072 tedv

tedv

    Observation: I am awesome

  • Allied Members
  • 1,796 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:13 PM

Worgen have an activated sprint ability, which makes them the clear winner. If you are just talking about fights where you don't need to get out of the fire, Human is probably the best for healers for 3% extra spirit. Shadow priests will get the most mileage out of Draenei, for 1% hit. But the real answer is Worgen.

#2073 François

François

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 66 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:25 PM

Before tedv's answer, I would have said gnome, for extra intellect, now I have a doubt about it, must compare spirit to intellect, and check the racial thing.

#2074 Zigizi

Zigizi

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 75 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:31 PM

I used the search function but didn't find anything regarding racial advantages for healing priests.

Is there a consensus yet on the best race right now for PvE alliance priests ?


It would be nice to get this information distilled and added to the compendiums. It's my understanding that the Human racial "The Human Spirit" (3% bonus to spirit) is the best racial for an alliance healing priest. Gnomes also get a 5% increased mana pool.

[Update: I guess 3 people posted at the same time. The worgen Darkflight could be useful depending on what fights are like- personally I feel like its long cooldown makes it less flexible than some of the holy spec's already present survival abilities, such as Body and Soul].

Before tedv's answer, I would have said gnome, for extra intellect, now I have a doubt about it, must compare spirit to intellect, and check the racial thing.


Also, Francois, note that the gnome racial was changed recently to be 5% increased mana pool, and NOT 5% increased intellect.

#2075 Viper45

Viper45

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 25 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:56 PM

The free trinket on top of the spirit for humans isn't bad perk either. Do gnomes still have escape artist? I'm sure there are situations where this would be useful too.

#2076 tedv

tedv

    Observation: I am awesome

  • Allied Members
  • 1,796 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:31 PM

Gnomes only give 5% extra mana pool, not 5% extra int. Obviously it would be hard to beat a racial that's +250 spell power. Gnome isn't really an option, except for PvP.

#2077 Elimbras

Elimbras

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 477 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:12 PM

Worgens also have 1% increased crit chance. That's nothing spectacular, but that's never lost either.

It's funny to realize that Dwarfs, that were the clear best choice for Alliance priest are now the worst choice (frost resistance and stone forme (bleed, disease and poison removal, 2 min cd) are the only useful racials for Dwarf priest. Others are gun (lol) and mace (relol) specialization, and the archeology bonus). Nightelves are not really better, with quickness (2% dodge chances on physical attacks), nature resistance, spirit form for rez and the fake feign death. Nothing really useful, but nothing absolutely definitely useless like guns or mace specialization. Draenei are a little bit better, because their free heal on 3 min CD off-GCD at least brings something. Except this and their shadow resistance, nothing useful either.

#2078 Snowy

Snowy

    Mitt Romney?

  • Moderators
  • 10,255 posts

Posted 06 December 2010 - 09:01 PM

New thread for Cataclysm is up.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users