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Warlock: Simple Questions/Simple Answers


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#1 Boethius

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 06:26 AM

Welcome to the Warlock Simple Questions thread. This thread is for all your simple questions which you expect to have simple answers and thus do not require their own thread.

Note that all forum rules still apply: we said simple questions, not stupid questions (which have no place on these forums). You're still expected to make a reasonable effort to find the answer yourself by searching and reading the threads and making use of spreadsheets and any other tools that may be available. If, however, you're fairly confident that your question is not easily answered with available information, but don't think it will generate sufficient discussion to require it's own thread, this is the place to ask.

#2 SageoftheTimes

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 04:04 AM

Can multiple instances of Shadow's Embrace be active on one target yet?
Clams. Now. Stack. 9.11.2008 m/d/y

#3 PsyBomb

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 04:32 AM

Can multiple instances of Shadow's Embrace be active on one target yet?


Assuming the bug that prevented it hasn't been re-introduced, the answer here is yes. Note that each only affects its caster's effects.
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#4 cham0w

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 10:29 PM

Hi all,

What's the cap of the spell touch for trash mobs and boss?

#5 Splot

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 01:53 AM

I'm grinding to 80 as Felguard spec with 2 points in mana feed. The spreadsheet is not giving me a different result for pet DPS with 0, 1 or 2 points in mana feed. Is there anybody that has undertaken a comparison between having and not having mana feed and its impact on pet oom time?

#6 Talimar

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 03:27 AM

I dont know if this counts as a simple question or not but I was wondering if one wants to play destruction at 80 how much value should one put into crit rating now that we dont need to worry about imp SB uptime?

#7 Bahkauv

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 04:11 AM

@ mana feed:

True. The spreadsheet doesn't calculate pet dps in regards to pet oom time. (Un)Check the buffs, especially JoW and BoW. If your "pet oom time" is shorter than the "oom time" you entered, more points in Mana Feed will result in more pet dps. As the ss doesn't use Torment, the oom time of your pet while solo will be even shorter. A lot shorter.

From personal experience, I would put 2 points in Mana Feed for use with a Felguard.

I don´t think that the ss should calculate values for solo play, as this would be a much more complex environment with a lot of variables to consider, that are not important for raid-dps. The dps of an affliction/FG build depend more on the number of available mobs, than on any factor you can enter in the ss, so the calculations would be flawed anyway ,-)

@ Talimar:

Try the spreadsheet, the value of crit rating depends a lot on your equipment, your raid/group composition and available buffs.

#8 Wyrmwing

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:38 AM

Hi all,

What's the cap of the spell touch for trash mobs and boss?


I'm assuming you mean spell hit? At level 80, every 1% of spell hit requires ~26.23 hit rating. To reach the cap for raid bosses, you'll need to gather 446 hit rating in total.

This thread has additional data: http://elitistjerks....ngs_level_80_a/

#9 dragon12

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:14 AM

The wording on the Shadow Embrace talent confuses me (emphasis mine):
"Your Shadow Bold and Haunt spells apply the Shadow Embrace effect, increasing all periodic damage dealt to the target by you by 5% and reduces all periodic healing done to the target by 15%. Lasts for 12 sec. Stacks up to 2 times.

Does this mean that it actually increases periodic damage by 10% in a normal fully-stacked situation?

#10 krilz

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 01:13 PM

The wording on the Shadow Embrace talent confuses me (emphasis mine):
"Your Shadow Bold and Haunt spells apply the Shadow Embrace effect, increasing all periodic damage dealt to the target by you by 5% and reduces all periodic healing done to the target by 15%. Lasts for 12 sec. Stacks up to 2 times.

Does this mean that it actually increases periodic damage by 10% in a normal fully-stacked situation?

Yes. Evaluating: In the exact wording, every dot that is up with this buff up will do 10% extra damage for every tick. Therefor, on boss fights, it is highly advisable to start out with Haunt and 1 Shadow Bolt and then put up all the DoTs.

#11 krilz

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 03:18 PM

Seeing as I'm yet unable to create my own threads (and that you've closed the PvE raiding compendium), I'll post my two questions here. They might not be simple, but life isn't either so here goes:

Is Incinerate better than Shadow Bolt when playing Affliction as a filler?
I involve Immolate in my rotation (as should any warlock) and seeing as you have a lot of extra points when you're 80 and playing Affliction, shouldn't putting 3 points in Molten Core and spamming Incinerates over Shadow Bolt be a DPS increase? It probably will, but seeing as you don't even use Shadow Bolt that often, is it worth it?

Is Soul Fire any good at level 80 and should it be involved in your rotation together with Backdraft?
Soul Fire doesn't have any cooldown any longer so what I'm basically wondering (assuming you have the shards to spare) if it is a DPS increase to after every Conflagrate to cast 3xSoul Fire (Chaos Bolt first ofc if it isn't on cooldown) or if you're better off with Incinerates.

#12 Robdopmwop

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 05:25 PM

Does Anyone who has reached level 80 has experienced that affliction seems to do very low dps ?
At this time I am running heroics but I feel really "underperforming" on bossfights.
My Current stats are as following :
1450 shadowdamage
247 hit rating (exl. suppresion roughly 13% with)
10% critical rating
110 haste rating

Spellcycle is somthing like, UA,cor,sl,haunt,immo sb spam, refresh ua,haunt sb spam etc.
On some bossfights I get around 1k dps only, and sometimes I get 2200. Seems very spikey..

Anyone else has something to share on this? maybe done naxx a bit with affli ?

Current build is something like : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

#13 krilz

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 07:54 PM

long time reader, first time poster :)

anyone @ lvl 80 has experienced that affliction seems to do very low dps ?
Atm running heroics but i feel really "underperforming" on bossfights.
Current stats :
1450 shadowdmg
247 hit (exl. suppresion roughly 13% with)
10% crit
110 haste

spellcycle is like, UA,cor,sl,haunt,immo sb spam, refresh ua,haunt sb spam etc.
on some bossfights i get around 1k dps only, and some i get 2200. Seems very spikey..

Anyone else has something to share on this? maybe done naxx a bit with affli ?

current build is something like : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

First of all, I feel like Imp. Shadow Bolt isn't worth it since it only buffs Shadow Bolt and Haunt (The exact tooltip is "Shadow damage dealt increased by 10% from non-periodic spells.") so you might skip out on it but someone else might shed some light on this with real math.
Second, it's been discussed in the PvE raiding compendium that CoA is much heavier DPS than putting up CotE if it's improved.
Third, your rotation seems a bit odd. The rotation I play with currently (I'm only lvl 75 at the moment) on bosses is Haunt, SB (this max ut Shadow Embace quickly), CoA, UA, Corruption, Immolate, SL, Haunt, SB, SB etc.

Also some other pointers on your talent build: Grim Reach is pretty useless since you don't have anything that increases the range of your SB.

#14 Ossifrage

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 09:25 PM

So... hit at 80 completely un-buffed and un-talented comes in at ~557.43? (32.78998947*17)

As of 3.02 we can expect 7% increased chance to hit in a raid environment.
3% from either suppression of cataclysm
3% Misery
1% Inspiring Presence

That means that the raid hit cap would be.... (17-3-3-1)*32.78998947= ~328

Did I miss anything? Is 328 the new effective raid +hit cap?

*** Based on These Numbers. Many thanks to Whitetooth.

Edit: After browsing some armory profiles I think its safe to assume 327/328 as cap. (Jinxarn - TwentyFifthNovember)

#15 Fulgurite

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 10:32 PM

So... hit at 80 completely un-buffed and un-talented comes in at ~557.43? (32.78998947*17)

As of 3.02 we can expect 7% increased chance to hit in a raid environment.
3% from either suppression of cataclysm
3% Misery
1% Inspiring Presence

That means that the raid hit cap would be.... (17-3-3-1)*32.78998947= ~328

Did I miss anything? Is 328 the new effective raid +hit cap?

*** Based on These Numbers. Many thanks to Whitetooth.

Edit: After browsing some armory profiles I think its safe to assume 327/328 as cap. (Jinxarn - TwentyFifthNovember)


You're looking at the physical hit rating conversion. Looks like the spell rating converts differently than physical hit still to me. The spell hit conversion is 26.2 rating per 1%.

Which means a cap of 288-289 +Hit for us horde and 262-263 +Hit for alliance.

If you want to cap your Pet/Soulshatter or cap without a Moonkin/Shadow Priest alive you'd need 367-368 hit for horde or 341 as alliance.

Unbuffed cap is 445-446 +Hit rating.

#16 Wyrmwing

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:16 AM

Seeing as I'm yet unable to create my own threads (and that you've closed the PvE raiding compendium), I'll post my two questions here. They might not be simple, but life isn't either so here goes:

Is Incinerate better than Shadow Bolt when playing Affliction as a filler?
I involve Immolate in my rotation (as should any warlock) and seeing as you have a lot of extra points when you're 80 and playing Affliction, shouldn't putting 3 points in Molten Core and spamming Incinerates over Shadow Bolt be a DPS increase? It probably will, but seeing as you don't even use Shadow Bolt that often, is it worth it?

Is Soul Fire any good at level 80 and should it be involved in your rotation together with Backdraft?
Soul Fire doesn't have any cooldown any longer so what I'm basically wondering (assuming you have the shards to spare) if it is a DPS increase to after every Conflagrate to cast 3xSoul Fire (Chaos Bolt first ofc if it isn't on cooldown) or if you're better off with Incinerates.


You'd have to use a spreadsheet or test it ingame to be sure, but either way Affliction rotations are already using a fair number of skills. Adding more may end up making them needlessly complicated.

Soul Fire still costs a soul shard to cast, so any rotation using it is bound to run out of steam really fast.

#17 Maelstro

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:41 AM

i'm not going to quote anyone on this, as it is more of an answer to generally being affliction. there are some problems with the starting rotation you guys are using, as it does not make the best use of GCD's and some seem a little unnecessary.

yes, you're going to want 2 points in CoA, as it does more damage than CoD.

affliction is iffy right now because there's no actual rotation. i tend to throw off corruption first, and depending on how long it takes to position i will go ahead and throw off CoA and siphon life as well. you want to open with shadow bolt to get your first stack of shadow embrace up, followed immediately by UA and Haunt. you want to do it in this order because UA won't tick before Haunt is applied, even with the cast and travel times. starting with corruption also means you will get maximum up time/use out of your glyph, nightfall, and eradication for the fight. then it's a matter of juggling globals and reapplying DoTs (yes, including immolate if it is convenient) as fast as you can - but always have priority in mind.

i find myself starting to recast Haunt when it has 4 seconds left. not only because it has a high priority, but also because you should get it up as soon as you can recast it to prevent it from falling off at all costs. this allows for you to get a shadow bolt or two off before you need to reapply UA, since you need to wait for it to fall completely off anyway.

my reapplication priority from highest to lowest is: Haunt, UA, immolate, and siphon life. Haunt reapplication is the only thing you should interrupt a shadow bolt cast for.

here is the spec i will most likely be using at 80

as you get more spirit, using your global for life taps instead of dark pacts becomes better - especially since there is so much mana regen going on in 25 man raiding environments from a variety of different sources. fights aren't long enough for mana to be a problem at 80, while managing globals is always prevalent. if i move anything around in finding myself having issues with life tap over dark pact, i will take a point out of eradication and move it over.

about imp ISB: this is a huge nerf. it feels like affliction and shadow priests were indirectly punished for destruction being so powerful. it boils down to just how useful molten core is. one of the fundamental set backs of affliction is that many power gains will not have an effect on 60+% of your damage until your DoTs have been reapplied. there is also the fact that you will most certainly be casting a lot of shadow bolts, while immolate is situational and very low on the priority list. getting that 10% on two spells you will be casting without a doubt throughout the fight - haunt and SB - is far better than the 10% on a spell that may not only be unused, but the proc may occur at a bad time for you to reapply immolate. not to mention it scales so much better with shadow bolt when you take Ruin into account.

if you look at my spec, you'll notice that i pick up the glyph of immolate regardless. this is because nothing else is a DPS increase that i haven't already picked up, and the glyph of fel hunter just isn't good enough.

as i run more tests, i will certainly post in game numbers for people to look at. affliction is just one of those things that i don't feel a spreadsheet will do justice, as it is easily the most complex and situational tree to play in the game right now.

Seeing as I'm yet unable to create my own threads (and that you've closed the PvE raiding compendium), I'll post my two questions here. They might not be simple, but life isn't either so here goes:

Is Incinerate better than Shadow Bolt when playing Affliction as a filler?
I involve Immolate in my rotation (as should any warlock) and seeing as you have a lot of extra points when you're 80 and playing Affliction, shouldn't putting 3 points in Molten Core and spamming Incinerates over Shadow Bolt be a DPS increase? It probably will, but seeing as you don't even use Shadow Bolt that often, is it worth it?

Is Soul Fire any good at level 80 and should it be involved in your rotation together with Backdraft?
Soul Fire doesn't have any cooldown any longer so what I'm basically wondering (assuming you have the shards to spare) if it is a DPS increase to after every Conflagrate to cast 3xSoul Fire (Chaos Bolt first ofc if it isn't on cooldown) or if you're better off with Incinerates.


haven't tested this, but you'll want to be using shadow bolt to keep shadow embrace completely stacked. imp SB still seems to be worth getting, and having 5/5 points in shadow mastery should make shadow bolt scale better than incinerate regardless.

#18 krilz

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:25 AM

Yes, I have been re-evaluating the worth of Imp. SB, especially since it buffs Haunt as well (which I originally though didn't). It's probably better than a lot of other talents you can use so I'll most likely use it on 80 when raiding.

However, one thing I noticed in your talent spec was that you didn't have Soul Siphon. SS can very much be an increase in DPS, especially on bosses since Drain Soul (Rank 6) does 4x the damage when the target is below 25%. Considering if you're the only Affliction warlock in a raid with all your DoTs up; SS will increase your Drain Soul damage with (Haunt, Shadow Embrace, UA, CoA, Corr, SL) 24% together with the 12% from Death's Embrace (target under 35%) making it better as a filler than SB. This can however depend on how much crit you have (for Imp. SB uptime).

I still stand by though that I think there are better talents than Ruin since it only buffs one spell in your arsenal as Affliction, a spell that is only used as a filler nevertheless.

EDIT: In case you were wondering, this is the spec I intend to play @ 80. It has a lot to offer in raids, dungeons, grinding and maybe even PvP though you're probably better off with Soul Link and Imp. Howl of Terror than Imp. SB for instance.

#19 Woggle

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 11:44 AM

I will go ahead and write up a more general post as well, as both the WOTLK talents thread and the PVE Raiding Compendium have been closed.

I have been raiding for 3 days know using a heavy affliction build and I must say, it performs exceptionally well. I have been topping the charts on every single encounter I was involved in (that is Naxx, Sartharion and Malygos all on non-heroic mode and several 5 man heroics), pushing well over 3000 dps in level 70 gear with lots of hit gems. I would like to clear out some misunderstandings here.

For the concern of Incinerate vs. Shadowbolt: As you do not get Emberstorm using a heavy affliction build, Shadowbolt should easily outperform Incinerate. Furthermore, I think it has been proven that Improved Shadowbolt DOES increase DoT damage (check the WOTLK thread for more of the discussion, I think it is valid for reapplication). Feel free to correct me here, if I am mistaken.

i find myself starting to recast Haunt when it has 4 seconds left. not only because it has a high priority, but also because you should get it up as soon as you can recast it to prevent it from falling off at all costs. this allows for you to get a shadow bolt or two off before you need to reapply UA, since you need to wait for it to fall completely off anyway.


As I have already discussed in the WOTLK thread, reapplying Haunt whenever the cooldown is up is NOT the way to go. Haunt has lower DPCT than all DoT-spells (and Shadowbolt, on a sidenote) as long as it is not falling off. The trick is to reapply it just exactly when it runs out or a split second later or earlier. A lot of practice may be needed for that, but it will certainly increase your DPS, as you have to realize that Haunt itself has bad DPCT without factoring the increased DoT damage.

And no, even then you should NEVER interrupt a Shadowbolt cast. Losing one or two un-haunted DoT-ticks is definitely not the end of the world.

About the thing using Shadowbolts before applying the DoTs, I have not done excessive testing. Even then, I doubt that it will push Shadowbolt's DPCT above that of all the DoT spells. This means that applying your DoTs before pushing for the second stack of Shadow Embrace might actually provide more DPS. Losing 5% on a few DoT ticks is better than losing at least 1 Tick of each DoT. Feel free to correct me here too.


if you look at my spec, you'll notice that i pick up the glyph of immolate regardless. this is because nothing else is a DPS increase that i haven't already picked up, and the glyph of fel hunter just isn't good enough.


I am using the glyphs of Siphon Life, Curse of Agony and Corruption. All of those seem to be a better choice than glyph of Immolate. I am considerung using the glyph of Shadowbolt, but I have not done excessive testing here either. Maybe someone can help me out here. Glyph of Shadowbolt should reduce the overall mana consumption by 5%, plus minus 1% depending on how many targets you have. That does reduce life tap time, but I think by a small margin only. This is similar to Cataclysm not being a major DPS increase pre-WOTLK (I like this term in analogy to pre-BC).

I am using a 56/0/15 spec too, but without Suppression (having the 3% hit without having Cataclysm is worthless) and having the Aggro reduce. The aggro reduce actually provided handy on fights like Malygos (remember to set up your demonic circle before P1 and then just port back down during the Vortex phase - very amusing) and others where tanks are not at the mob full time or where there is multi-target dotting going on. Freeing up 6 points is very hard, but I guess one could go stepwise into speccing Hit (1 point in Suppression and Cataclysm at a time). Not having hit on Soulshatter seems to be less of an issue right now. I will link that spec later on.

#20 krilz

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:05 PM

Thanks for the info. However, after checking out your spec, I'm wondering if not 3/3 Eradication would be a better choice than Imp. Life Tap at 80 considering how much +spirit there is out there on gear. I know that you are still using a lot of heavy 70 stuff but once that is upgraded (I like looking forward), shouldn't Life Tap be fine on it's own? Especially if you have Dark Pact as I've heard it's bolstered by spirit as well.

How good is really 3/3 Eradication compared with the lower ranks?




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