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Warlock: Simple Questions/Simple Answers


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#21 Anthraxx

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:00 PM

Simple question: what is Buzzkill's spec about now? (Armory Lite - The WoW Armory Alternative: Buzzkill of Magtheridon)

No improved imp talent and empowered imp at the same time is confusing.

CoA CB/incinerate spam with weakened imp in favor of stamina? Strange...

#22 duhwhat

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 02:33 PM

For 70-80 leveling with Dark Pact, does the talented (1/2 or 2/2) Felhunter with only Shadow Bite enabled have better mp5 than the untalented Imp?

#23 Melbuframa

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 03:48 PM

For 70-80 leveling with Dark Pact, does the talented (1/2 or 2/2) Felhunter with only Shadow Bite enabled have better mp5 than the untalented Imp?


I do not know the hard numbers but with 2/2 and the felhunter on defensive I never have mana issues. I’m speced Hanut/SL at 77 currently and chain pulling has never been more fun.

#24 Oriax

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 04:01 PM

Ive done a lot of math around our dots and how they are scaling. With decent gear our corruption is straight sex sauce! I am predicting corruption ticks at 1500+, and UA ticks at 1200+. and each tick can crit! Having 15%-20% crit rate on those two dots actually comes out to 15-20% increase in dmg on those dots. With that crit % you basically proc pandemic once a cast (sometimes more). I have found that as affliction with haunt I still manage to get off as many SB's as demo and destro locks. And because of shadow mastery our SB's hit just as hard if not harder than Demo and just a tincy bit lower than full destro(incinerate). Is it safe to assume that crit is just as important to affliction locks as demo and destro? Also does pandemic scale better than the crit system we are used to, does 5-6 small chances per spell scale better than 1 big chance per spell?

#25 Blacksen

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 05:26 PM

Question: Does anyone have a suggestion on how to watch for drain soul ticks under 25%? I'm having trouble with it and sometimes feel like I'm clipping it right before it does another tick.




Is it safe to assume that crit is just as important to affliction locks as demo and destro? Also does pandemic scale better than the crit system we are used to, does 5-6 small chances per spell scale better than 1 big chance per spell?


3 things here:

First, crit for affliction warlocks still falters when being compared to pure spell haste and spell dmg. While I don't have the actual math available, I'm just going off the assumption that because our crit is so low, getting DoT's up quicker and more shadowbolts in a fight is very valuable. The other big problem is that Ruin does not scale Pandemic. It's not actually registered as a "crit," so anything that scales your crits won't actually affect them. Lastly, you can't get Devestation with Haunt. This is a big one, as that 5% crit that destruction gets for free is a huge part in their build.

I really don't see crit scaling that well when compared to spell dmg and spell haste. I'm absolutely loving how easy spell haste is to get, and I think it'll probably be one of the "definers" in the affliction build.

In Naxx 10-man last night, I easily topped the charts on every fight while clipping DoT's and forgetting Drain Soul sub 25% on one of the bosses. The thing that really did it was insane spell haste (450 and still going up).






I do not know the hard numbers but with 2/2 and the felhunter on defensive I never have mana issues. I’m speced Hanut/SL at 77 currently and chain pulling has never been more fun.


I agree with this. Haunt will keep you healed, 2/2 for the Felhunter will keep you very high in mana. The only thing you have to remember is to occasionally stop running so that your felhunter can catch up.

For leveling, I would open with Haunt, then UA, start running, Corruption, Siphon, CoA, lifetap or dark pact, then move onto the next mob.

#26 UnderbogWarlock

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:27 PM

I looked through all the forums I could find, and on all of the blizzard forums as well and couldn't find it. I just recently switched from Priest to Warlock and can't find any type of equations or ratio's for MP5. Are there any In-Combat Mp5 capabilities a warlockhas that I am missing or are there really none?

#27 Ossifrage

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:38 PM

I looked through all the forums I could find, and on all of the blizzard forums as well and couldn't find it. I just recently switched from Priest to Warlock and can't find any type of equations or ratio's for MP5. Are there any In-Combat Mp5 capabilities a warlockhas that I am missing or are there really none?


Lifetap > Mp5

We have no talents for Mp5 and we don't really need any. My priorities after hit cap:

DMG>HASTE/CRIT>SPIRIT>INT>STAM>Mp5

#28 Byram

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 06:42 PM

Hey all.

I was wondering if anybody knew exactly how all of our talented coefficients (Contagion, Empowered Corruption, EA, Shadow Embrace, SM, Haunt, all that kind of thing with percentage boosts) factored in- additive or multiplicative? I'd always thought multiplicative, similar to threat redux, but recently while leveling my pally I noticed on this character pane that Sanctified Retribution, Crusade, and Vengeance all stacked additively on the damage line (base damage * 114% multiplier with fully stacked Vengeance). This got me thinking about other talents, so does anybody know about warlocks in this regard?

EDIT: Thought I'd post an example.

Let's say we throw a Corruption up that does 1000 base damage, and we have 0 spellpower (not gonna think about empowered Corr yet). Only talents we care about for this are SM, Contagion, and Imp Corruption. That's a 10% increase, a 15% increase, and a 5% increase. Is this 1.1*1.15*1.05= 132.825% boost to damage, or a 10+15+5= 130% boost? Thanks ahead of time.

EDIT 2: NVM Empowered Corruption, that likely works just like S&F, so it's 36% additive to 120% for 156% +dmg coefficient. If this is wrong though, please let me know.

#29 Kazuha

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:13 PM

Hey all.

I was wondering if anybody knew exactly how all of our talented coefficients (Contagion, Empowered Corruption, EA, Shadow Embrace, SM, Haunt, all that kind of thing with percentage boosts) factored in- additive or multiplicative? I'd always thought multiplicative, similar to threat redux, but recently while leveling my pally I noticed on this character pane that Sanctified Retribution, Crusade, and Vengeance all stacked additively on the damage line (base damage * 114% multiplier with fully stacked Vengeance). This got me thinking about other talents, so does anybody know about warlocks in this regard?

EDIT: Thought I'd post an example.

Let's say we throw a Corruption up that does 1000 base damage, and we have 0 spellpower (not gonna think about empowered Corr yet). Only talents we care about for this are SM, Contagion, and Imp Corruption. That's a 10% increase, a 15% increase, and a 5% increase. Is this 1.1*1.15*1.05= 132.825% boost to damage, or a 10+15+5= 130% boost? Thanks ahead of time.

EDIT 2: NVM Empowered Corruption, that likely works just like S&F, so it's 36% additive to 120% for 156% +dmg coefficient. If this is wrong though, please let me know.


As a warning, all my testing only involved corruption, but it should be consistant across all dots:
The first class of talents consists of Shadow Mastery, Improved Corruption, Contagion. These are all additive.
All other talents provide multiplicative effects. So the overall multiplier on a fully debuffed mob is 1.3*1.03*1.1*1.2.

Also, note that empowered corruption adds a straight 6% of your spellpower per tick, and everlasting affliction adds a straight 5% of your spellpower per tick.

#30 Byram

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:21 PM

As a warning, all my testing only involved corruption, but it should be consistant across all dots:
The first class of talents consists of Shadow Mastery, Improved Corruption, Contagion. These are all additive.
All other talents provide multiplicative effects. So the overall multiplier on a fully debuffed mob is 1.3*1.03*1.1*1.2.

Also, note that empowered corruption adds a straight 6% of your spellpower per tick, and everlasting affliction adds a straight 5% of your spellpower per tick.


So basically passives are additive, while active debuffs (Haunt, CoE, SE, old Misery and Shadow Vuln) are multiplicative with your spell. TY for the quick response =)

#31 Maelstro

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:28 PM

For the concern of Incinerate vs. Shadowbolt: As you do not get Emberstorm using a heavy affliction build, Shadowbolt should easily outperform Incinerate. Furthermore, I think it has been proven that Improved Shadowbolt DOES increase DoT damage (check the WOTLK thread for more of the discussion, I think it is valid for reapplication). Feel free to correct me here, if I am mistaken.


the actual buff can be seen here.

imp ISB applies the shadow mastery buff to the mob, which states:
"Shadow damage dealt increased by 10% from non-periodic spells."

if this is wrong, it wouldn't be surprising as that spell's actual debuff and tooltip have been conflicting for a long time now.

As I have already discussed in the WOTLK thread, reapplying Haunt whenever the cooldown is up is NOT the way to go. Haunt has lower DPCT than all DoT-spells (and Shadowbolt, on a sidenote) as long as it is not falling off. The trick is to reapply it just exactly when it runs out or a split second later or earlier. A lot of practice may be needed for that, but it will certainly increase your DPS, as you have to realize that Haunt itself has bad DPCT without factoring the increased DoT damage.

And no, even then you should NEVER interrupt a Shadowbolt cast. Losing one or two un-haunted DoT-ticks is definitely not the end of the world.


shouldn't the 20% on your five different DoTs be factored in anyway? not only because in a lot of cases that 20% represents 200+ damage, but also because that 20% factors into how much your UA and Corruption are going to "crit" for. while yes i'm not going to break a shadow bolt cast to reapply it when it has 4 seconds left, but if for some mental lapse i am casting shadow bolt when Haunt has 2 seconds left, i will break the SB cast and reapply Haunt. of course, best case scenario means you will be reapplying Haunt as closely to it's falling off as possible without sacrificing a single shadow bolt (or DoT tick) - but this, you're right, just comes with playing the spec in a raiding environment for a while.


I am using the glyphs of Siphon Life, Curse of Agony and Corruption. All of those seem to be a better choice than glyph of Immolate.


i reasoned this out after spending some time with Dr. Boom and with the slightly broken test dummies. even in deep affliction, my immolate DoT ticks for more than my siphon life does - about a 100 damage more - and the glyph of immolate increases that immolate DoT by 20%. i just don't see how the siphon life glyph can compare unless it's simply for health regen, or the fact that SL is much easier to get off on the fly.

I am using a 56/0/15 spec too, but without Suppression (having the 3% hit without having Cataclysm is worthless) and having the Aggro reduce.


i wouldn't say Suppression without Cataclysm is worthless in 70 gear, just because getting a resist/miss on a DoT application would be bad for my rotation - and while getting a resist/miss on a shadow bolt would be much more tragic, i'm really feeling like imp ISB and 5/5 ruin are worth it. when i'm hit capped at 80 though, i will most likely move points from suppression and fel conc to soul siphon and imp drain soul.

#32 Trickykid

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 09:55 PM

shouldn't the 20% on your five different DoTs be factored in anyway? not only because in a lot of cases that 20% represents 200+ damage, but also because that 20% factors into how much your UA and Corruption are going to "crit" for. while yes i'm not going to break a shadow bolt cast to reapply it when it has 4 seconds left, but if for some mental lapse i am casting shadow bolt when Haunt has 2 seconds left, i will break the SB cast and reapply Haunt. of course, best case scenario means you will be reapplying Haunt as closely to it's falling off as possible without sacrificing a single shadow bolt (or DoT tick) - but this, you're right, just comes with playing the spec in a raiding environment for a while.


Without even getting into specific numbers, even if 5 DoTs all tick for +200 (if you want to include crits, call it 240), sacrificing half of a shadow bolt's cast time when shadow bolt does 4-5k (taken from SWP geared level 80 WWS) is a bad move. To make up for that you'd have to do an extra 2,000 damage with your DoTs in that two second window which is pretty unlikely.

#33 Woggle

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 10:57 PM

the actual buff can be seen here.

imp ISB applies the shadow mastery buff to the mob, which states:
"Shadow damage dealt increased by 10% from non-periodic spells."

if this is wrong, it wouldn't be surprising as that spell's actual debuff and tooltip have been conflicting for a long time now.


I was jsut recalling what I had heared. I know the wording of the buff, but people had done testing on the beta servers. I have not gotten to doing those on live, too much stuff to take care of. Either way, none of the two possibilities would really surprise me.



shouldn't the 20% on your five different DoTs be factored in anyway? not only because in a lot of cases that 20% represents 200+ damage, but also because that 20% factors into how much your UA and Corruption are going to "crit" for. while yes i'm not going to break a shadow bolt cast to reapply it when it has 4 seconds left, but if for some mental lapse i am casting shadow bolt when Haunt has 2 seconds left, i will break the SB cast and reapply Haunt. of course, best case scenario means you will be reapplying Haunt as closely to it's falling off as possible without sacrificing a single shadow bolt (or DoT tick) - but this, you're right, just comes with playing the spec in a raiding environment for a while.


I think that has been answered above. You NEVER EVER want to interrupt a cast. If you made a mistake and started casting Shadowbolt instead of Haunt, finish it. If you do not make mistakes, you will not have to interrupt casts. Either way, it must be a major mistake if all 5 DoTs would have a tick in that gap. Just do not let it happen.


i reasoned this out after spending some time with Dr. Boom and with the slightly broken test dummies. even in deep affliction, my immolate DoT ticks for more than my siphon life does - about a 100 damage more - and the glyph of immolate increases that immolate DoT by 20%. i just don't see how the siphon life glyph can compare unless it's simply for health regen, or the fact that SL is much easier to get off on the fly.


this might actually make sense, though Immolate is the spell you want to cut off first if you have trouble with debuff slots / rotations. I don't know the exact coefficients after the buff, someone might have to do the math. The Glyph of Corruption does not look that well either.



i wouldn't say Suppression without Cataclysm is worthless in 70 gear, just because getting a resist/miss on a DoT application would be bad for my rotation - and while getting a resist/miss on a shadow bolt would be much more tragic, i'm really feeling like imp ISB and 5/5 ruin are worth it. when i'm hit capped at 80 though, i will most likely move points from suppression and fel conc to soul siphon and imp drain soul.


Well, it's not worthless, just worth much less, as you are accepting a potential 3% miss on all Destruction spells (which counts for Immolate too). Either put points in both or none, going deep into one does not make too much sense to me (don't forget about 40-50% of your DPS will be coming from Destruction). Furthermore, getting hit rating is not that hard. There are lots of questrewards and drops with tons of hit on them (i.e. an on-use trinket with 55 hit rating passive). My current spec is the following: http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=030417000000
Using food with hit rating is actually not bad either in terms of reaching the hit cap.

I am considering using this spec http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=030417000000
with the hit talents in both. On bosses without spell pushbacks, fel concentration is not needed and I mentioned aggro reduce above. Dark Pact is not needed necessarily, with a Discipline Priest Dark Pact und Life Tap draw even for me.

#34 Splot

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:35 AM

Well, it's not worthless, just worth much less, as you are accepting a potential 3% miss on all Destruction spells (which counts for Immolate too). Either put points in both or none, going deep into one does not make too much sense to me (don't forget about 40-50% of your DPS will be coming from Destruction). Furthermore, getting hit rating is not that hard. There are lots of questrewards and drops with tons of hit on them (i.e. an on-use trinket with 55 hit rating passive).

Using food with hit rating is actually not bad either in terms of reaching the hit cap.


Cataclysm gives a mana cost reduction to destruction spells which may be the only reason to take it at end game for any class. Supression doesn't offer the same benefit and once hit capped (for soulshatter) locks will drop it from their builds. For demo locks I'm not sure the hit rating benefit from the talent would flow through to pets and only the cost reduction should be considered worth while.

I think you'll still see a lot of locks gear swapping and food buff swapping for bosses for quite a while to come in level 80 raiding.

Edit:
Checked my facts after reading a following post and suppression does dp 2% mana reduction per point and would be worth while for that purpose. I sill think that soulshatter will force hard hit capping.

#35 Trickykid

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:47 AM

Cataclysm gives a mana cost reduction to destruction spells which may be the only reason to take it at end game for any class. Supression doesn't offer the same benefit and once hit capped (for soulshatter) locks will drop it from their builds. For demo locks I'm not sure the hit rating benefit from the talent would flow through to pets and only the cost reduction should be considered worth while.

I think you'll still see a lot of locks gear swapping and food buff swapping for bosses for quite a while to come in level 80 raiding.


Suppression lowers mana cost of affliction spells by 2% per point. Also swapping out 3% hit for non-hit items is probably still a good investment of talents compared to picking up stray points in Eradication or other non-DPS talents.

#36 dragon12

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:58 PM

Well, it's not worthless, just worth much less, as you are accepting a potential 3% miss on all Destruction spells (which counts for Immolate too). Either put points in both or none, going deep into one does not make too much sense to me (don't forget about 40-50% of your DPS will be coming from Destruction).


It's not "worth much less". Right now Destruction accounts for approximately ~30% of my damage if I ignore that I'll be using DS below 25% (so in reality it's slightly less than that). Getting 3/3 Suppression is one of the best dps increases you can get for those points if you're not at the hit cap yet, regardless of whether or not you get 3/3 Cataclysm as well. Suppression's worth is not linked to Cataclysm. Going deep into either one increases your dps if you're below the hit cap, how does that not make sense?
All this is also ignoring that if you miss a Haunt, that's a significant dps loss for the downtime.

I sill think that soulshatter will force hard hit capping.

This really depends on whether or not threat is a big issue in WotLK raiding. At some point there'll be so much hit going around that it won't be a problem anyway though.

#37 Skellum

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 05:24 PM

From what I've been reading and from gearing myself up, its looking like I want to hit 14+% hit, then to gear myself with items that have spirit+Crit/Haste/Dmg etc. As a stat spirit actualy gives us quite a bit of utility. Decreased downtime from casts, increases our +dmg. All in all its really not a bad stat.

So here is my question. 10% less mana cost on Sbolt or 20% increased Damage from my siphon life glyph. Which has a greater impact on increasing my DPS? I would assume with high spirit from gear and the bonus from the T7 that mana should become nearly a null issue.
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#38 oresteez

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 06:15 PM

Hi all,
I've seen a few mentions of this, but never really read anything that was definitive.
Should I hold onto all of my level 70 raiding gear, to fill any hit% gaps at 80? Right now they
aren't needed for leveling, so most of my +hit is now sitting in my bank, as I stockpile +dmg...

Thanks..

#39 Quietvicks

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 06:49 PM

To anyone who's done Gothik the Harvester as affliction: is there any way to not feel useless? Every time I get going on something, it's mostly dead anyway.

#40 Skellum

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 06:58 PM

To anyone who's done Gothik the Harvester as affliction: is there any way to not feel useless? Every time I get going on something, it's mostly dead anyway.


Put a summon portal on the opposite side of your gate, DD/Corr dot things and then at the end if they have any left go warp over and kill them.

You get a couple Ooooh and Ahhhh moments for the first few times. Other good demonic circle uses, Thaddius, putting it just outside a door and using it to escape repair bills.
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