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[WotLK] Warrior: Simple Questions/Simple Answers


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#41 swelt

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 10:35 AM

Question on Improved Demo Shout. With CoR now either not required (using FF instead) or without the AP increase (Frailty talent), and assuming that you'd choose to have a warrior applying DS rather than one of the alternatives (e.g. in a 10 man), is 2/5 Imp DS still "enough"?

#42 Chumble

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 11:21 AM

Does anyone know what sort of DPS improvement Mace spec gives with a deep Arms build? I found figures for Axe and Sword, but not Mace. I'm wondering if the dwarf racial (+5 expertise) is enough to make mace spec viable (I assume it isn't otherwise, as it's rarely mentioned).

Thanks.

#43 Axira

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:50 PM

I've read on several places that the agility gems would overall be better than the dodge gems for prot warriors, due to diminishing returns on dodge rating now. Could someone confirm this? Also according to those sources the following would be a list of the best tanking gems per color:

Blue: Full stamina
Purple: Stamina/agility
Red: Full agility
Orange: Def/dodge (because there is no agility/def gem)
Yellow: Defense rating
Green: def/stamina


So I'd like to know if this is correct. I've been wading through multiple combat rating threads now, but haven't really found a clear answer on which stat would be better for a prot warrior (in terms of mitigation and survival). Thanks.

#44 Rishkkin

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:12 PM

How does deep wounds work currently? I know it went through a few revisions on the beta servers, and I'm not sure exactly how it works now.

In particular:

How high does it stack?
How does it interact with Dual-wielding? (ie. how do mainhand and offhand deep wounds stack, and how does that effect their stacking?)
How do yellow attacks (eg. Whirlwind, Bloodthirst) affect deep wounds - do they just count as a MH crit?


1- As long as you can keep critting within 6 seconds it will stack, there's no actual limit to it.
2a- Currently OH crit will apply a stack with 16 % of OH weapon DMG
2b- Attacks done at the same time (instant + swing or Whirlwind) will deal only OH DWs DMG even if it's the MH that did crit
2c - Bloodthirst and Execute are treated as if you were unarmed (1-2 dmg ticks FTW !)
2d- GC said it's fixed, but didn't specified WHAT was fixed and as usual has dodged us since then


Check out that thread over there :

Warrior Deep Wounds Simulator - TankSpot

Its a simulator I made up with the help of the people at tankspot

Hope this answers your questions.

#45 Mendo

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 06:07 PM

I haven't seen any sort of spreadsheet yet for Arms DPS at level 80, so I was wondering - with the new synergy between Rend and Overpower, as well as a one second cooldown on Overpower when talented, making Battle Stance a viable DPS stance for Arms, is expertise a stat that Arms warriors should worry about? I'm thinking that it would still be better DPS even as Arms to be expertise capped since a Slam or Mortal Strike is more damage than an Overpower, but I'm not really sure how much of a difference it would make. I guess what I'd like to know is whether or not expertise is something worth gemming/gearing for, or if I should gem for Strength/Crit mostly and just take whatever expertise happens to come on the gear I get.

#46 Rishkkin

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 06:26 PM

I wouldn't go all out for expertise as a dodged attack means a free OP, but being expertise capped will still be nice anyways :D

edit : soft capped that is

#47 Dayone

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 06:44 AM

I haven't seen any sort of spreadsheet yet for Arms DPS at level 80, so I was wondering - with the new synergy between Rend and Overpower, as well as a one second cooldown on Overpower when talented, making Battle Stance a viable DPS stance for Arms, is expertise a stat that Arms warriors should worry about? I'm thinking that it would still be better DPS even as Arms to be expertise capped since a Slam or Mortal Strike is more damage than an Overpower, but I'm not really sure how much of a difference it would make. I guess what I'd like to know is whether or not expertise is something worth gemming/gearing for, or if I should gem for Strength/Crit mostly and just take whatever expertise happens to come on the gear I get.


I'm also very interested in PvE 2H arms again. How good is it in 10 mans and 25 mans compared to TG? There's been so much buzz about sudden death, deep wounds, and then titan's grip but is anyone still giving 2H arms a serious thought?

#48 Prinsesa

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 07:26 AM

Axira: The dodge you gain from both AGI and Dodge Rating are factored into the same diminishing returns formula. Since you need 73.52 AGI to gain 1% dodge, while you only need 39.34 Dodge Rating to gain 1% Dodge, Dodge Rating is still superior in terms of avoidance gained per item point spent.

Parry and Dodge are on separate diminishing returns formulae, but given that Parry Rating gives less avoidance per point than Dodge Rating even BEFORE diminishing returns, Dodge will still give you better results unless your stats are extremely skewed.

With regards to red-shaded gemmings, I would recommend either Dodge Rating (for the above-mentioned reasons) or STR, whose block value is mitigation, as opposed to Dodge's avoidance.
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#49 Jamor

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 04:28 PM

Has anyone seen a Glyph of Blocking, or Glyph of Last Stand? I have yet to see one, or hear about one on my server (herbs are stupid pricey though). Just making sure it actually exists in game.

#50 Shha

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 04:33 PM

The resilience/defense and Blood Craze is actually an interesting topic

So facts:

1) Resilience absorbed crits still proc Blood Craze

2) Defense absorbed crits . do not proc Blood Craze

However most people dont know the important result of those 2.

Mobs do not have 5% crit chance vs you like most people think. Sure in the end it seems so because:

a) Mob chance to crit = 5% base + 0.04xWeapon Skill = 5%+0.04*5*mlevel. For a 80 level mob that means its 5%+0.04*5*80% =21%

B) Your base "crit reduction" from defense = your TOTAL defense *0.04 = your lvl*5*0.04 - assuming you capped your defense. So its 16% reduction without any +defense gear.

21-16=5% - so yea its same as the common knowledge. However it has some implications.

Resilience reduction to crits comes on table BEFORE defense reduction to crits. Therefore when a lvl 80 toon RESILIENCE CAPPED toon is attacked by a lvl 80 mob the "combat table" is populated like this.

Mob base chance to crit = 21%. Resilience crit % reduction = 15%. Combat table gets "injected" with 15% "resilience reduced crits" . Then and only then defense comes to play - assuming no defense gear is used you have 16% further crit reduction - since the mob has only 6% chance to crit left that goes to 0, and rest of table is filled with hits and eventual dodge/miss/parry etc.

In the end it means the mob of your level has FIFTEEN % chance to proc Blood Craze on every hit. even though without resilience its chance to crit is only 5%.


In short
a) If crit immune - chance to proc Blood Frenzy = current resilience gear % crit reduction chance.
B) If not crit immune chance to proc Blood Frenzy = current resilience gear % crit reduction chance+final chance to crit.

So in the end putting resilience gear not only doesnt lower your chance of proccing Blood Craze, but in fact in many cases it INCREASES it drastically.

#51 Scaredofbees

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 04:38 PM

Has anyone seen a Glyph of Blocking, or Glyph of Last Stand? I have yet to see one, or hear about one on my server (herbs are stupid pricey though). Just making sure it actually exists in game.


The Glyph of Blocking is a discovery major. Since the mats are ridiculous and the discovery is on a 20hr cooldown, it really comes to luck on which servers are getting it first. I haven't seen it either on our server.

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#52 Toots Hepcat

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 05:08 PM

How big a deal is weapon speed?

Wanted: Ragemane's Flipper offers three tank-specific weapons as rewards. Looks to me like the axe has the best threat gen / farming stats, especially considering the orc racial...but it's really slow. I'm having trouble dumping rage with HS even with my current 1.6s weapon...not that I really need to, since I generally only lose threat when melee does something stupid.

Also: is Devastate normalized?

#53 JamesVZ

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 06:31 PM

Weapon speed is a huge deal, the faster you can press Heroic Strike, the more damage you do, the more threat you do. Given two weapons of equal DPS for a Protection Warrior, the faster speed will do more damage in the same period of time due to Heroic Strike. Out of those weapons, the mace is by far the best.

Devastate is normalized.
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#54 Rupe

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 08:52 PM

One questions I am not sure of yet is are the enchants like mongoose/executioner diminished like crusader was in BC? How are other new enchants compared to these two? Accuracy seems nice.


I believe they do diminish like most other rating and enchants do. I think the best enchants at the moment for DPS anyways is Berserking. I'm not 80 so have not tested proc rate to see if using 2x Berserking is better or worse than Berserking on MH and Massacre on OH.

#55 Phanuel

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 01:05 AM

Weapon speed is a huge deal, the faster you can press Heroic Strike, the more damage you do, the more threat you do. Given two weapons of equal DPS for a Protection Warrior, the faster speed will do more damage in the same period of time due to Heroic Strike. Out of those weapons, the mace is by far the best.

Devastate is normalized.


Precisely. I have two different swords, 1.6 speed 111 dps and a 2.6 speed 130 dps. I prefer using the 1.6 far more than the 2.6 for more consistent rage generation and when I get into less rage starved situations the heroic strike spam is significantly more threat.

#56 Travor

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:50 AM

I believe they do diminish like most other rating and enchants do. I think the best enchants at the moment for DPS anyways is Berserking. I'm not 80 so have not tested proc rate to see if using 2x Berserking is better or worse than Berserking on MH and Massacre on OH.


I think Massacre on OH is pretty much unbeatable, but i'm not quiet sure about the MH enchant.
It really depends on the PPM of Berserking, since it would average out at:

1 PPM and assuming 14k armor (mentioning the downscaling of berserking with the -25% armor debuff while gaining the benefit of AttT and adding imp. Berserker Stance (+10% AP) = ~94 AP

or more like 1,5 PPM = ~140 AP

Massacre is a flat 110 AP (+11 AP imp. Berserker Stance) = 121 AP

so it really depends on the PPM imho

#57 PSGarak

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:35 AM

The resilience/defense and Blood Craze is actually an interesting topic

So facts:

1) Resilience absorbed crits still proc Blood Craze

2) Defense absorbed crits . do not proc Blood Craze

However most people dont know the important result of those 2.

Mobs do not have 5% crit chance vs you like most people think. Sure in the end it seems so because:

a) Mob chance to crit = 5% base + 0.04xWeapon Skill = 5%+0.04*5*mlevel. For a 80 level mob that means its 5%+0.04*5*80% =21%

B) Your base "crit reduction" from defense = your TOTAL defense *0.04 = your lvl*5*0.04 - assuming you capped your defense. So its 16% reduction without any +defense gear.

21-16=5% - so yea its same as the common knowledge. However it has some implications.

Resilience reduction to crits comes on table BEFORE defense reduction to crits. Therefore when a lvl 80 toon RESILIENCE CAPPED toon is attacked by a lvl 80 mob the "combat table" is populated like this.

Mob base chance to crit = 21%. Resilience crit % reduction = 15%. Combat table gets "injected" with 15% "resilience reduced crits" . Then and only then defense comes to play - assuming no defense gear is used you have 16% further crit reduction - since the mob has only 6% chance to crit left that goes to 0, and rest of table is filled with hits and eventual dodge/miss/parry etc.

In the end it means the mob of your level has FIFTEEN % chance to proc Blood Craze on every hit. even though without resilience its chance to crit is only 5%.


In short
a) If crit immune - chance to proc Blood Frenzy = current resilience gear % crit reduction chance.
B) If not crit immune chance to proc Blood Frenzy = current resilience gear % crit reduction chance+final chance to crit.

So in the end putting resilience gear not only doesnt lower your chance of proccing Blood Craze, but in fact in many cases it INCREASES it drastically.

I don't think this is how it works. I was under the impression that your resiliance-proced effects was not actually related to the crit that was pushed off the combat table, but simply a direct function of your resiliance.

In more detail: Resiliance does not actually convert a crit into a pseudo-crit on the combat table. It converts a crit into a non-crit, and separately gives a chance to proc on-crit effects. If you have 16% crit reduction from resiliance, this gives you a 16% chance on incoming non-crit to proc crit-related effects for all effects. This is a flat percent and not affected by the incoming effect. Effects that are hard-coded not to crit (for example, Deathcoil) are capable of procing this. Other effects that had a less-than-16% base crit chance (for example, SL-SL warlock nukes have around 10% in PvP gear) have all of their crit removed, which is only a 10% reduction, and yet still give 16% chance to proc crit-related effects.

This was discovered as a result of having odd effects due to hit and crit not being the only results on the combat table. For example imagine you have 75% avoidance, 15% resiliance, and are hit with an effect with 25% crit chance. If resiliance was a pseudocrit effect, then every actual hit would proc your on-crit effect, since all 25% of the hits would have been crits pre-resiliance. This was found not to be the case, every non-crit still only has a 15% chance to proc. This also provides a means of testing to make sure that what I'm saying is still the case. I haven't heard of this being changed, but it's also not the sort of thing that's easy to notice.
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#58 Guest_2Face_*

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:12 AM

I've been tanking a lot of heroics and 10-mans lately, and a lot of pulls require AOE tanking.
I was never a tank pre-LK so I don't know if I'm doing things right.

In a general pull I would:
Pull -> T-Clap -> Demo/Auto-attack -> SS/Rev/Dev/Dev rotation -- (Shockwave somewhere in there, situation depending)

Because I usually have so much rage, I'd cleave in between each special if there are 2 or more mobs (rage permitting), HS when it's single target. I re-apply T-Clap and Demo Shout whenever they're about to expire, but that's it.

Should I be T-Clapping more often? Or is Cleave a better use of rage?

#59 footloop

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:58 AM

I've been tanking a lot of heroics and 10-mans lately, and a lot of pulls require AOE tanking.
I was never a tank pre-LK so I don't know if I'm doing things right.

In a general pull I would:
Pull -> T-Clap -> Demo/Auto-attack -> SS/Rev/Dev/Dev rotation -- (Shockwave somewhere in there, situation depending)

Because I usually have so much rage, I'd cleave in between each special if there are 2 or more mobs (rage permitting), HS when it's single target. I re-apply T-Clap and Demo Shout whenever they're about to expire, but that's it.

Should I be T-Clapping more often? Or is Cleave a better use of rage?


If there are more than two then Thunderclap is definitely a better choice, if there are exactly two then it's close. Personally I use thunderclap so that I have more rage available to do other things. On aoe pulls I pretty much Tclap every time it's off cooldown.

#60 Rupe

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:13 PM

I think Massacre on OH is pretty much unbeatable, but i'm not quiet sure about the MH enchant.
It really depends on the PPM of Berserking, since it would average out at:

1 PPM and assuming 14k armor (mentioning the downscaling of berserking with the -25% armor debuff while gaining the benefit of AttT and adding imp. Berserker Stance (+10% AP) = ~94 AP

or more like 1,5 PPM = ~140 AP

Massacre is a flat 110 AP (+11 AP imp. Berserker Stance) = 121 AP

so it really depends on the PPM imho


Assuming 14000 armour unbuffed and discounting any AP modifiers such as Imp. Berserker Stance, you will gain 233.3 AP from AttT. Now assume you have one Berserking proc up your armour will be reduced by 25%, or 3500. This translates to an AP loss from AttT of 58.3, so you have a net gain of 341.7 AP from the proc. In other words, you gain 85.4% of the normal effect..

If you have two procs up at the same time, you will lose 7000 armour and hence 116.7 AP resulting in a net gain of 683.3 AP, which is again 85.4% of the normal effect. However these calculation all assume that the armour reduction affects AP from AttT at all.




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