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Feral questions?


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#841 Chip

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 09:07 PM

I'm not at my home computer, so I can't check my settings there, but here I downloaded a fresh copy of Rawr and scanned my armory profile. And now I am indeed getting the results that T10 single pieces are indeed upgrades over T8 even if breaking the 4T8 bonus. I'll have to wait til I get home to see what the problem is with my Rawr settings there, but I'm glad to know that I can go ahead and upgrade instead of waiting for enough Emblems of Frost to equip 2 pieces at once. Now the (fun) question of which piece will benefit me the most, and the (not quite as fun) task of getting used to higher CP SR's again.

Thanks for the help!

#842 kalbear

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 09:52 PM

Well first, the ring you linked is a heroic ICC ring and as I stated I intentionally did not include any heroic ICC pieces of gear in this gear set. The set I linked is sort of a "starter" gear set for ferals to aim for and then upgrade to heroic ICC gear if they are in a guild that allows them access to those items.

I am also confused by which ring you consider to be subpar to get hit capped. The only ring I use with hit on it is the Ashen Verdict 277 ring, which I certainly don't consider to be subpar. The other ring is an armor pen ring with no hit on it. Also this profile does allow you to reach the armor pen hard cap so I didn't sacrifice anything to become hit capped.

Lastly, that profile when run with simulationcraft rates hit and expertise higher than agility and strength so I think the goal for T10 ferals will be to get as close to the hit and expertise cap as possible once the armor pen hard cap is achieved.


Sorry, psuman - the code here automatically links to the heroic version. There's a nonheroic version of that ring that is quite good, and comes from Marrowgar25 - so it should be fairly quickly obtained given how many times he's going to die.

I'd consider the Saurfang ring to be subpar, personally. And while I realize that the simulation craft indicates hit and expertise are better than strength and agi on a per point basis, that doesn't mean that it makes up for 13 ilvls of itemization by itself. In general it's always going to be better to get higher ilvls of gear unless there's a huge itemization snafu. Capping by itself isn't important or required; it's just that hit becomes pretty valuable. That isn't the same thing as 'sacrifice everything to get it'.

#843 Cluey

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 10:48 PM

You don't need to use the subpar ring to get hit capped (or close to it); you can instead use and get closer. That allows you to use a better head if you choose, and instead go for the glove slot as your non-tier item.

I do agree that are a good choice before getting anything else; the difference between them and the other options is not huge, and that hit is hard to come by. Still, it's not a requirement that you are hit capped at all. It might simply be better to go for the arp cap and deal with not being hit capped instead of taking subpar itemized gear and/or gems.

I've seen the gloves being mentioned as the best off-set piece a few times now and they are but not by much. Let's look at the stats:
[table=head]Stat|264 Set|264 OS|277 Set|277 OS277 OS[/url]
Stamina|120|120|136|136
AP|145|145|165|165
ArP|80|80|90|90
Agility|120|112|136|128
Haste|72|64|82|74
Sockets|1R|1R,1Y|1R|1R,1Y
So the difference between the set and off-set gloves of the same item level is eight agility and haste for a yellow socket. If you put a in the socket this makes the off-set gloves only two agility and haste better than the set ones.

I think the reason people keep coming up with the gloves is due to the options we have in the other slots.
The 4pT10 bonus is SO good that we will use it. Given the known loot from the Armory the ilvl 277 off-set pieces are:
[table=head]Slot|Set|Off-set
Head||
Shoulder||
Chest||
Hands||
Legs||

We are caught out by Expertise coming in such large chunks, if you try to use as the non-set piece to get the 4pT10 bonus you end up with two pieces of gear with 106 expertise rating, while this is only four rating short of being capped without Primal Precision the freed talent points can't be put anywhere to gain a significant amounts of damage.
If you go for the you get some handy hit but lose expertise, to pick it up elsewhere you start looking and find and as the only desirable ilvl 277 pieces with expertise on them, the ring isn't enough and the chest put's us in two off-set pieces land again.
As I pointed out at the start of this post the gloves are almost identical, using the shoulders drops ArP and gains you crit rating which is more likely to take you past the crit cap. The hat gains you hit rating but has crit too and no ArP.

The above is only looking at currently known ilvl 277 gear, if other non-set loot turns up it could be more interesting for us but as it currently stands most of us will be aiming for 4pT10 without the gloves and I wouldn't be surprised to see 5pT10 given how close the gloves are. I am expecting the socket bonus to be the same on the off-set gloves, the only other likely bonus would be 8 AP but the rogue set bonuses have been agility.

If you don't expect to get ilvl 277 gear the choices are a lot more varied in the ilvl 264 bracket with many of the ten man heroic pieces being nicely itemised for DPS although they are lower in stamina.
[table=head]Slot|ilvl 264 set for comparison||
Chest||
Hands||
Head||
Legs|||
Shoulder||

#844 kalbear

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 11:12 PM

The gloves aren't a huge increase over the T10, but they are an increase - which is more than I can say for the rest of the sets, all being equal.

Now, what we might end up seeing (and psuman99 illustrated this nicely) are people hitting the arpen cap easily with simply 264 gear - which would mean that having arpen in most of the slots (like the gloves) would be a bad choice if you can trade it for hit or expertise or haste instead. The would then be better simply because all that other arpen would be wasted. I kind of doubt that'll be the case though, as I don't see people being able to get enough arpen on gear without gems, and gems could easily be swapped around to accomplish that change.

The big advantage of having the head as your offtier piece is that it costs 35 emblems less to get your 4pT10, which might be worth it. This is the sort of thing I'd imagine that people would have to choose rather quickly though, as a wasted buy means a possible wasted token drop from 264 and 277, and that's a big cost.

I also doubt very seriously that Arthas will drop any armor - or if he does, it'll be something like a head. There are plenty of leg pieces, chest pieces, gloves and offtier shoulders. I would bet that as the last boss he'll drop pieces of gear that are more universally desired, such as weapons, jewelry and cloaks.

#845 psuman99

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 05:26 AM

Sorry, psuman - the code here automatically links to the heroic version. There's a nonheroic version of that ring that is quite good, and comes from Marrowgar25 - so it should be fairly quickly obtained given how many times he's going to die.

I'd consider the Saurfang ring to be subpar, personally. And while I realize that the simulation craft indicates hit and expertise are better than strength and agi on a per point basis, that doesn't mean that it makes up for 13 ilvls of itemization by itself. In general it's always going to be better to get higher ilvls of gear unless there's a huge itemization snafu. Capping by itself isn't important or required; it's just that hit becomes pretty valuable. That isn't the same thing as 'sacrifice everything to get it'.


Kalbear, now I understand what you meant. I took your advice and revised my profile slightly based on your suggestion of the ring and tier head. This is the link to the new profile Profiler - Wowhead

The same rules apply as the profile I mentioned in post #836: This is a basic "starter" gear setup for ferals assuming no heroic ICC gear and therefore should be easy to obtain for the most part. As you can see, this new profile is hard armor pen capped, hit capped, and expertise capped (assuming BSing as one of the professions). I ran this profile and the profile from post #836 through simulationcraft and this updated profile generates an additional 100 dps. So it appears based on this that ferals should use the gloves as the offset tier piece and use the Ashen Verdict ring and 264 ring from Marrowgar 25.

#846 moz

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:02 PM

Is there a particular reason you are using Twin's Pact in your profile over other 264 (non-heroic) options such as Distant Land? I know you mentioned the 258 gear in your OP, but it appears even though this would knock you off the cap it would be a non-trivial DPS increase simply due to how feral AP scales. Saying you are at the hard cap is nice, however if it's less DPS then it probably isn't worth it. Accessibility can't be the reason since if you can amass enough badges to buy that stuff (and kill Sindragosa) I am sure you'll kill Festergut a few times along the way.

On a more general note, gearing options are particularly interesting since they are based on what you have available from the previous tier along with what you can obtain first in ICC/badges. For example, picking up the T10 gloves even though they are non-optimal (very slightly) may make a lot of sense if you can get your 4-pc quicker as mentioned. One nice thing about that is that you can still utilize it in a tanking set later on (since you'll most likely want to use Ikfiru's as the off-set here), which is not as big a waste if you do end up doing some tanking.

#847 DrFurious

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 01:29 AM

Has anyone done any math on when specifically to fit swipe into cat rotations for optimal dps? Obviously with one target the single target rotation priority will be best and swipe rotation will be best with many mobs, but what about the grey area where there is perhaps two or three targets, specifically fights like twin valkyrs but also kologarn or aoe situations where some have died already? Are there situations where swiping on OOC procs is better than the appropriate single target spell? Are there times where swiping is a better use of excess energy than fitting in a ferocious bite?

#848 chetal

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 04:33 AM

3 or more targets u can swipe, keeping SR up with a mangle(for the agility proc on your idol) or a rake.

#849 DrFurious

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 04:30 AM

I'm glad it's that simple

#850 monstroussin

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 06:59 PM

As to the offset pieces so far the best numbers I've been able to get through rawr are with the gloves as the offset. This is what I believe should be our bis till we actually see some loot from Arthas (I'm guessing a polearm and probably cloak). This set is gonna put us at just 9 under the hard cap for armor pen, and just 1 expertise and 4 hit rating off those caps. No blacksmithing was use just leatherworking and jewelcrafting. Anyway here's what I came up with Profiler - Wowhead

#851 Robosaurus

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 06:22 AM

@monstroussin. Your profile appears to have a parry gem in the shoulder socket. Furthermore you have utilised 4 JC gems instead of 3.

I fixed it up and renamed the profile.

Profiler - Wowhead

#852 monstroussin

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 09:57 AM

Yeah I noticed it the next day and changed the profile, but thanks. Time to go back over things again though since we can actually see the socket bonus's to see if any of them are worth grabbing over losing the arp. However I think being just 9 off the hard cap will be sufficient.

#853 Khickenwing

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 05:16 PM

Ok, so basically the Class Leader in my guild is giving me trouble because he wants a mangle bot and I was thinking, ok I can drop imp. Leader of the Pack and 1 out of infected wounds pick up Imp. Mangle and keep Master Shapeshifter and not lose anything, but now he wants me to keep Imp. Leader of the pack so he can drop it for more DPS talents, I'm just looking for a little break down on the stats and threat gen comparison between imp. mangle's 1.5 seconds off Mangle and 4% extra damage to everything provided by Master Shapeshifter.. Thanks any help is greatly appreciated.

#854 Dreydon

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 04:28 AM

Actually fits pretty nicely. The hit and ArP allow you to drop the ToC boots for and maybe even allows you to use a non ArP cloak, like the one off Gunship for guilds that don't do ToGC anymore. The strength might even be better than agi if we're passively bumping up against the crit cap.

Something like this: Profiler - Wowhead

#855 Mjoedgaard

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 10:23 AM

Ok, so basically the Class Leader in my guild is giving me trouble because he wants a mangle bot and I was thinking, ok I can drop imp. Leader of the Pack and 1 out of infected wounds pick up Imp. Mangle and keep Master Shapeshifter and not lose anything, but now he wants me to keep Imp. Leader of the pack so he can drop it for more DPS talents, I'm just looking for a little break down on the stats and threat gen comparison between imp. mangle's 1.5 seconds off Mangle and 4% extra damage to everything provided by Master Shapeshifter.. Thanks any help is greatly appreciated.


You can drop 3/3 infected wounds for 3/3 imp. mangle if you have a warrior with you.
The only reason you would need 3/3 imp. mangle is for more treat as you should have mangle 100% at the time on a single target anyway.

#856 Inaiwae

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 11:35 AM

Not sure i understand it correctly. He wants you to take imp. mangle so there's lower chance that mangle drops?

If that's the case i'd drop master shapeshifter, not infected wounds. There are cases where you wont have the option of someone else doing the debuff.

I guess typical bear is hit capped (at least with current gear) and has around 30-40 expertise. So the chance you miss a mangle is 5-7%, and you have to miss two times for mangle to drop. I dont think the chance is big enough to warrant spec with improved mangle.

#857 Daboran

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 01:30 PM

There's no need to take Imp Mangle.

As long as you have the correct skill rotation and have a reasonable level of +hit and +exp Mangle is extremely unlikely to fall off with a Bear tanking. I think I've noticed it happen less than 6-7 times and I've been Feral tanking since SSC. On top of this, I think 4 of these were on Brutallus due to the gearing requirement forcing me to drop +hit items.

Tell your CL:
(1) Get an addon that watches debuffs. If by some extreme remote chance it falls off he can hit Mangle on his Cat which is likely hit-capped and wont wipe the raid rather than compromise his tank's abilities which "may" wipe the raid.

(2) Take his 3 points out of FI or Imp. Mangle himself if he wants to use them to move from 2/5 to 5/5 Feral Aggression. But seriously is he bitching about the negligible increase from 3 points in FA?

#858 Carebare

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 05:31 PM

I'm going to lock this thread. I'm working on cleaning up our forums to cut down on repetitive threads. This really does fall into that category. If you have a simple question, put it in the SQA thread. If your question is more in-depth post it in the cat or tank threads depending where it fits best. Thanks.

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