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Feral Druid Numbers (updated for 3.2.2)


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#241 Tiffara

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 04:05 PM

Armor from extra armor (armor above the base armor value of a slot) is not multiplied by anything, nor is armor from agility (to find base armor, just look at the armor on caster gear in the same slot with the same ilevel). The various armor bonuses (bear form, thick hide, metagem) are multiplicative. You might try getting the armor right for caster form first, just to remove one factor (the bear form multiplier,) and you can not use the metagem to remove another.

The character sheet dodge is post-dr.

If you want accurate base stats (that is, without talents), you might need to retrain to get a good snapshot. The affects of talents are added right in.

#242 bung

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 04:09 PM

The character sheet dodge is post-dr.


Would you kindly share a source that confirms this?

#243 Tiffara

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 05:31 PM

Simple math and the character sheet. Try different agi, check the dodge, and see if it scales linearly or not. Pre-dr, it's linear, post-dr, it's not (that's what dr was put in to do). Three data points is all you need (following in caster form with no def or dodge rating):

92 agi - 7.54% dodge
1049 agi - 25% dodge
1843 agi - 35.96% dodge

Taking the first two, we get 54.81 agi per 1% dodge. The second two, 72.44 agi per 1% dodge. It's not linear, so it's post-dr. (And as an added check, it's increasing in amount of per % dodge the more agi you get.)

#244 Umah

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 06:11 PM

About testing Scroll of Enchant 2H Weapon - Scourgebane - I would like to suggest following method:

  • Install Recount and/or World of Logs, any further suggestions for measurement?
  • Unequip any item that offers you a proc. Being Hit-capped helps as well, stacking as much Expertise as possible helps against RNG well? Equipping less of Agi or Crit helps against RNG as well. Furthermore the less AP you stack, the bigger visible impact both enchants have on your total DPS. So it might be best to play nude + a weapon. A more expensive variation would be to socket moonkin/restoration equipment with +hit and +expertise gems.
  • Find an undead mob that has mass HP but does not hit for too much - I STILL TAKE SUGGESTIONS ON THIS ONE - bring one or two good healers.
  • Enchant a Feral weapon with Scroll of Enchant 2H Weapon - Massacre. Adding Predatory Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft to Massacre results into 132 AP. Socketing one 8 AP in a non weapon socket will even out the difference completely. Both enchant-setups will offer 140 AP IF Scourgebane does not scale with Predatory Strikes. If it does there should be a difference of (140 * 1.2) - 140 = 28 AP that results into different DPS.
  • Hit that given mob for a few thousand white hits. Maybe do that at midnights where there are no enemies interrupting and there is less chance of server lag.
  • Enchant the same a Feral weapon with Scroll of Enchant 2H Weapon - Scourgebane. Replace the 8 AP gem with a stamina variant.
  • Extract gathered data.
  • Hit that given mob for the same amount of white hits again.
  • Extract gathered data - and compare.

I have not done empirical testing yet. Anything missing, anything wrong? I think Massacre and Scourgebane are both not too expensive to try and find out on some random weapon I have on my bank. How many autohits do you think are required to get a most likely true data representation? One hour of testing would result into around 3600+ autohits.

Edit: Thinking more about this: crit, hit and exp make no difference as we can treat those differently, e.g. ignore those completely. That means without any equipment or healing equipment with more HP (to be healed easier) will give best results, as the little AP of those enchants has a bigger relative impact on a nude character, than on one equipped. Probably easier to do with a healer and a tank though.

#245 Tiffara

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 05:23 PM

If you're going to do this, I suggest you test with rake - it does a fixed amount of damage for a given amount of ap. And, given that, you probably shouldn't need to mess with equipment much - remove any on-proc gear, and test it with and without the weapon equipped.

#246 Umah

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:46 PM

If you're going to do this, I suggest you test with rake - it does a fixed amount of damage for a given amount of ap. And, given that, you probably shouldn't need to mess with equipment much - remove any on-proc gear, and test it with and without the weapon equipped.


Rake - Spell - World of Warcraft - thanks for the awesome tip. If its fixed a few hits will give clarification.

#247 Rannasha

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:05 AM

Why would you empirically test the effect of attack power on DPS? Attack power scaling for all attacks is well known from previous theorycrafting and unlike stats like crit and haste, there are no rotation-altering effects or non-linearities to model.

#248 Nathanyel

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:12 AM

The only thing left to test is, since it's technically a static bonus, whether Pred. Strikes applies to it or not.
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#249 Rannasha

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 11:30 AM

The only thing left to test is, since it's technically a static bonus, whether Pred. Strikes applies to it or not.


Yes. And this is a relevant question as it would give Scourgebane a significant edge over Massacre, which it wouldn't have if Pred. Strikes doesn't affect Scourgebane.

If Pred. Strikes affects Scourgebane, the AP bonus from the enchant will be 168 (184.8) instead of 140 (154). (Values in brackets include Heart of the Wild). With a Rake-coefficient of 0.06 per tick, we have Scourgebane giving 11 (12) more damage if Pred. Strikes affects it and 9 (10) more damage per Rake tick if Pred. Strikes does not affect it. (All values include HotW, numbers in brackets also include Naturalist, Master Shapeshifter not included)

One can enchant a weapon (any weapon) with Scourgebane, Rake an undead mob, note the damage done by the DoT tick, then Rake any non-undead mob and again check Rake-DoT damage. If the difference is 12 (or 13, with MSS), then Predatory Strikes affects Scourgebane.

#250 Umah

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 02:12 PM

Rannasha thanks for your insights, this will save me lots of Gold ;)

Though my calucations result into different numbers, did I miss something?:

Scaling part of Rake - Spell - World of Warcraft AP * 0.18

Enchant 2H Weapon - Scourgebane - Spell - World of Warcraft scaling with Predatory Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft: 140 AP * 1.1 * 1.2 = 184.8 AP
Enchant 2H Weapon - Scourgebane - Spell - World of Warcraft not scaling with Predatory Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft: 140 * 1.1 = 154 AP
Difference: 30.8 AP

Resulting Rake DMG per tick difference Undead vs non-Undead mob: 30.8 * 0.18 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 5.54400 DMG.

Edit: Master Shapeshifter - Spell - World of Warcraft does affect Rake ticks? What about Naturalist - Spell - World of Warcraft then?

If both affect Rake ticks, then the resulting Rake DMG per tick difference Undead vs non-Undead mob: 30.8 * 0.18 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 6.342336 DMG.

p.s. Wowhead says the DoT scaling of Rake is AP * 0.18. The AP scaling works against the whole spell not each tick? (3 ticks each 0.06 AP)? If that is the case, with my numbers the difference is rather 30.8 * 0.06 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 2.114112 DMG

Edit 2: NVM now it fits with your calcuations. (if Naturalist doesn't scale Rake ticks, its 30.8 * 0.06 * 1.04 = 1.92192)

#251 Cluey

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 04:16 PM

Rannasha thanks for your insights, this will save me lots of Gold ;)

Though my calucations result into different numbers, did I miss something?:

Scaling part of Rake - Spell - World of Warcraft AP * 0.18

Enchant 2H Weapon - Scourgebane - Spell - World of Warcraft scaling with Predatory Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft: 140 AP * 1.1 * 1.2 = 184.8 AP
Enchant 2H Weapon - Scourgebane - Spell - World of Warcraft not scaling with Predatory Strikes - Spell - World of Warcraft: 140 * 1.1 = 154 AP
Difference: 30.8 AP

Resulting Rake DMG per tick difference Undead vs non-Undead mob: 30.8 * 0.18 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 5.54400 DMG.

Edit: Master Shapeshifter - Spell - World of Warcraft does affect Rake ticks? What about Naturalist - Spell - World of Warcraft then?

If both affect Rake ticks, then the resulting Rake DMG per tick difference Undead vs non-Undead mob: 30.8 * 0.18 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 6.342336 DMG.

p.s. Wowhead says the DoT scaling of Rake is AP * 0.18. The AP scaling works against the whole spell not each tick? (3 ticks each 0.06 AP)? If that is the case, with my numbers the difference is rather 30.8 * 0.06 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 2.114112 DMG

Edit 2: NVM now it fits with your calcuations. (if Naturalist doesn't scale Rake ticks, its 30.8 * 0.06 * 1.04 = 1.92192)

You need to re-read Master Shapeshifter - Spell - World of Warcraft as you can't cast rake in Bear form. Naturalist should effect it and I'm sure if it didn't it would have been brought up by someone in the last year.

#252 Rannasha

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Posted 12 February 2010 - 05:43 PM

Resulting Rake DMG per tick difference Undead vs non-Undead mob: 30.8 * 0.18 * 1.1 * 1.04 = 5.54400 DMG.

This is the part where you go wrong. The difference of 38 AP is between Pred. Str. affecting Scourgebane and Pred. Str. not affecting Scourgebane. Only one of these is true, but you can't determine with just one Rake-test which it is. Therefore you need to check how much AP Scourgebane actually adds, by comparing an undead mob (where Scourgebane works in fullest) to a non-undead mob (where Scourgebane doesn't add anything).

And Cluey is correct, MSS does not add a percentage bonus to damage in cat form, so ignore my comments on that.

#253 Umah

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Posted 13 February 2010 - 12:14 AM

If I got it right, SB has to add (140 * Predatory Strikes) * HotW * Naturalist - if it scales.
So the Rake tick damage on an undead mob must be (140 * 1.2) * 0.06 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 12.1968 higher. Correct now?
If it just adds (SB-AP) * HotW * Naturalist, then it does not scale.

Edit:

Results

1111 Dmg per Rake tick on an Undead
1099 Dmg per Rake tick on an non-Undead

Undead #1: Imageshack - rakeundead1screenshot02.jpg
Undead: #2: Imageshack - rakeundead2screenshot02.jpg
Non-undead #1: Imageshack - rakenonundead1screensho.jpg
Non-undead#2: Imageshack - rakenonundead2screensho.jpg
Scourgebane: http://img17.imagesh...21310020822.jpg
No 4xT10, no proc trinkets, rings, idols, amulets.

Difference: 12 DMG => Scourgebane works?!

Manually adding Scourgebane to Rawr giving static 140 AP adds 21 DPS more than Mongoose (shortly followed by Berserking)

Edit: Before many jump on the bandwagon - testing in Simulationcraft shows Mongoose > Scourgebane > Berserking at some BiS levels, same for my current item setup (early/mid ICC-mix).
So: before you enchant this, test it by modifying simulationcrafts configuration in before simulation like " enchant=140ap,weapon... " where your main hand appears.

#254 Mjoedgaard

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 11:18 PM

A good thing to add under hit rating is that Growl - Spell - World of Warcraft uses spell hit and therefor need 17% spell hit or with glyph+spriest/boomking 6% spell hit.

nothing:
17% = 17*26.232=445,944 hit rating
with spriest/boomkin
17%-3%=14%
14*26.232=367,248
with glyph
17%-8%=9%
9*26,232=236,088
with glyph and spriest/boomkin
17%-8%-3%=6%
6*26,232=157,392

/edit: this is ofcourse against a level 83 mob.




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