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Feral Druid Numbers (updated for 3.2.2)


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#21 Pharmacon

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 07:12 PM

What's the chance we get those two thread stickied so people are more likely to read them instead of going straight to asking questions that are 95% likely to be in there?

#22 Mithuata

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 06:36 AM

Do we know the crit % of a naked cat at level 80 before talents?

#23 RareBeast

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 07:14 AM

Updated the original post to include SotF in all relevant calculations and added figures with BoK in (brackets). Also added a section for Armor and DR% as suggested.

#24 Erdluf

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 01:33 PM

81.975 Resilience = -1% chance to be crit, -2.2% crit damage, -2% DoT damage & -2% mana drain reduction

Looking at my armory, that should be -1% DoT damage and -2.2% mana drain.

#25 Humbaba

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:23 PM

Do we know the crit % of a naked cat at level 80 before talents?


I'm currently resto specced and in my healing gear with 0 extra agility and 0 crit rating I have 12.4% to crit. That is with master shapeshifter, so it should be 8.4% base.

#26 RareBeast

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:42 PM

Looking at my armory, that should be -1% DoT damage and -2.2% mana drain.


Yeah DoT damage was my mistake but the mana drain bit I can't find any other info to support the extra 0.2% .


edit: Just found the info on the mana-drain effect increase:-

Resilience: Now reduces the magnitude of mana draining effects by the same amount that it reduces critical strike damage.


So I assume the increase to the Crit damage reduction has been carried across to the mana drain even though it wasn't specifically mentioned in the 3.0.3 Patch Notes. Thanks for spotting that Erdluf.

#27 Karnage

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 04:47 PM

I've been looking into gear choice while levelling to 80. I can't get a good handle on Haste or Armour Penetration, and how they relate to other stats on gear.

I'm sure I didn't miss it, as I searched the forum for euivalence ratings or anything I could use to generate them, but can't find anything. If I've missed it, apologies.

I'm not after four decimal places of accuracy or anything, but could really use an indicator of relative worth, mainly for DPS for levelling. I use ratingsbuster, so when I compare gear, I often have a choice like:
+15 AP
+0.3% Hit
+0.39% Crit
-1.3% Haste

Hit: I tend to use uncapped hit as a base. +1% hit, when uncapped is equal to around +1% more damage. I know it isn't exact, for abilities like rip and rake and some energy is refunded in certain circumstances, but it's probably good enough.

Crit: is similar, because you do double damage on a crit, but it doesn not affect rake, rip etc.

Attack Power. Does +x% AP increase your damage by a factor of x?

Haste. Again, does +x% Haste increase damage done by a factor of x? Or do you start running out of energy, and therefore it only really applies to white damage?

Armour Penetration. Similarly, is there any way to value this against other stats?

I have some numbers in my head and tend to value (in round 1% terms, and uncapped where applicable), Hit -> AP -> Crit -> Haste -> Armour Penetration. Am I way off?

#28 kalbear

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 06:09 PM

Attack Power. Does +x% AP increase your damage by a factor of x?

Haste. Again, does +x% Haste increase damage done by a factor of x? Or do you start running out of energy, and therefore it only really applies to white damage?

Armour Penetration. Similarly, is there any way to value this against other stats?

AP basically increases your damage by a factor of x, as all your abilities scale with AP.
Haste only affects white attacks and omen of clarity procs. Even with higher OoC procs, haste is still not that great of a DPS stat; white damage is simply not that high relative to yellow damage. I rate it at about the same value as AP point per point, which means it's about half as good since you get double the AP normally.

ArPen is not bad, but right now it doesn't do a whole lot since it works on percentages instead of base values and mobs tend to have not a lot of armor. That + the bleed damage means that armor pen is slightly less valuable than haste, at least for me.

In general, it goes like this:
hit = expertise > strength > agility > AP > crit >>> haste > arpen.

#29 kbranch

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 09:31 AM

Yes, the 15% parry is certainly not confirmed from what I can find. There is even less information on non-boss mobs parry rates. The 6.5% dodge rate for bosses is one that I have seen fairly consistantly in several places so I think it is likely to be accurate.

If someone wants to respec out of Primal Precision, take off all their Expertise gear and test it on one of the target dummies, I would love to see the results. I can't do it yet as I am only 77 still and the tests should really be done at 80.

I didn't spec out of PP, but I did something like a 9 hour test last night against the heroic dummy with all my gear off. If you add the 2.5% for PP, I got 13.9% parry, 6.5% dodge, and 8.2% miss. The dodge number is spot on, and the parry numbers seems reasonable, but the miss is a little troubling since I thought that was a well researched mechanic. Seems to me like either there's some +hit I'm getting that I'm not aware of (and doesn't show up on the character sheet), I just got a ridiculously improbable lack of misses, or the training dummy uses different mechanics than a real raid boss (which pretty much invalidates everything else in the test). I suppose the 9% number we're all used to could be wrong, but I find that pretty unlikely.

I'll do another test tonight against the level 80 dummy. I can also redo the heroic test without PP if adding 2.5% to the dodge and parry numbers isn't valid for some reason.


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#30 Multane

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 10:24 AM

Agility

1 Agi = 1.166 AP (1.2826 AP) (Cat only)
1 Agi = 0.01272% (0.13992%) Crit
1 Agi = 0.02544 (0.027984) % Dodge
1 Agi = 2.12 (2.332) Armor


You seem to have missed a 0 after the dot on the crit part with kings. Going from 0.012% to 0.139% is quite an increase.

Also, at the defense breakdown you listed 1 defrating as giving 1% crit reduction if we dont have SotF. I'm assuming you ment to place that at the defense skill part, only its listed there aswell. Maybe remove the line at defense rating?

#31 Maksimus

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:20 PM

Now def cap for war and pala is 540 (was 490), for druid was 415 (survival of the fittest). Sombody told me that now for drod is only nead 3xsurvival of the fittest to be uncrttable (I dont belive in that).
My question what is now def cup for druid tank.
Thx for answer!

#32 terminalman

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:30 PM

You only need 3/3 SOTF to be uncrittable. That is true. Level 83 bosses have a 5.6% chance to crit, SOTF reduces you by 6% chance to be critted.

#33 bean81782

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 08:45 PM

This was a while ago, but I thought I read they removed glancing blows? Weapon skill used to reduce your chance of getting a glancing blow, but I thought when they removed weapon skill they also got rid of glancing blows.

#34 kalbear

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 09:08 PM

Glancing blows are still in. I did a few a week ago against a 6+ higher mob.

#35 bean81782

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 09:21 PM

Glancing blows are still in. I did a few a week ago against a 6+ higher mob.


I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I thought they removed them from mobs +3 levels over you, kind of like they did with crushing blows.

#36 RareBeast

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 11:49 PM

You seem to have missed a 0 after the dot on the crit part with kings. Going from 0.012% to 0.139% is quite an increase.

Also, at the defense breakdown you listed 1 defrating as giving 1% crit reduction if we dont have SotF. I'm assuming you ment to place that at the defense skill part, only its listed there aswell. Maybe remove the line at defense rating?


Thanks Multane. /sigh I can't believe more mistakes still are being found.



I didn't spec out of PP, but I did something like a 9 hour test last night against the heroic dummy with all my gear off. If you add the 2.5% for PP, I got 13.9% parry, 6.5% dodge, and 8.2% miss. The dodge number is spot on, and the parry numbers seems reasonable, but the miss is a little troubling since I thought that was a well researched mechanic.


Thanks for that test. The miss result certainly is interesting. I'm pretty sure we'd know if the accepted miss figure was wrong. Misses have been reported with people being only just under the cap. I wonder if it is the training dummy. I might be speccing resto tonight for some heroics, so I might leave my toon hitting the dummy tonight when I go to bed and see what sort of result I get.

I was going to ask if someone might have put a debuff on the dummy, but having had a look now, there doesn't seem to be any buff or debuff that affects your chance to hit the mob (only the mobs chance to hit you).

#37 Tulathros

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 04:10 AM

Defense Rating
1 DefenseRating = 0.008% dodge and 0.008% chance to be missed (and 0.008% reduced chance to be crit if you don't have SotF)


This is a bit misleading, even with SotF defense does reduce your chance to be crit, whilst you are unable to be crit by a normal mob/boss with SotF talent you can still be crit by a mob or player with crit chance higher then 6%.

#38 RareBeast

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 07:01 AM

This is a bit misleading, even with SotF defense does reduce your chance to be crit, whilst you are unable to be crit by a normal mob/boss with SotF talent you can still be crit by a mob or player with crit chance higher then 6%.


Fair call. I have changed the line to read :-

1 DefenseRating = 0.008% dodge and 0.008% chance to be missed and 0.008% reduced chance to be crit (Crit reduction not needed for PvE if you have SotF )



Does that wording seem clear? I know there are some unusual mobs with higher than normal crit chances or debuffs that increase their crit chance, but we could make the list unreadable by trying to include every little exception. If people feel otherwise, let me know what you suggest I change it to.

#39 Paternoster

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 07:02 AM

I may be totally off but I still have to ask this:
Assuming that any Feral would want to have nearly 100% Uptime of Savage Roar and that it has a significant influence of attack power shouldn't that be taken into account at the first posting? I thought the reason of the thread was to help people to understand the mechanics an to help them pick the appropriate gear. So taking SR into account would mean a rather large decrease of value for any of the combat ratings or - from the other perspective - a large increase of the value of strength, agi and of course pure attack power. So I'd at least mention it...

#40 RareBeast

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 10:48 PM

This thread isn't trying to weight one stat vs. another. The value of crit vs AP for example is going to be different for every different combination of gear. There are plenty of tools that will give you those stat weightings for your gear eg. Rawr, Toskks

This thread is more a reference for doing your own theorycrafting (eg. working out how much more expertise you need to be capped) as well as a guide for those newer to druid theorycrafting explaining exactly what each stat gives you - things like defense rating for example are not exactly self-explanatory.




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