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Balance Glyphs


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#21 skeldi

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 08:09 PM

Perhaps if mana isn't an issue, I should stack more haste then grab the innervate glyph?

#22 Covale

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:32 PM

Is there any opinion on the use of ? Personally, I am a LB whore, and this glyph gave me a wood! However, I'd like to know if anyone has run some numbers using this.

I also don't see a downside from using whether soloing or while grouping. Glyphs in general seem to mostly benefit the player. This one has the versatility of being both self and group friendly. Being that glyphs are destroyed when removed, its not likely that we will be swapping them out between PVP, soloing, and raiding.

#23 Ashaera

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:47 PM

Is there any opinion on the use of ?


You are gonna spend 99% of your time in moonkin form, a huge part of your raid viability comes from your buffs & debuffs - In most fights switching out to heal is a matter of poor strategy & / or bad execution by your healers.
Should you feel the need to shift out, then it's going to be for badly needed emergency healing - Not really a situation lifebloom is fantastic for.

If for some strange reason you dont want or then theres 3 other semi-decent options :
- Lets you take 2/2 imp. Gift of the Wild.
- Very low impact on single target dps.
- Very situational.

#24 tarrek

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 01:13 PM

Does anyone know if glyph of insect swarm stacks additively or multiplicatively (sp?) with the two-piece T7 bonus?

#25 Spink

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 06:05 AM

Sorta busy atm but some quick numbers, 2pc (wearing no gloves) 612 per tick, 1 pc (wearing no pants/gloves) 547 per tick. Pants are T7.10 with equivalent of 126.42 spellpower via 65 int(=6.42 spellpower), 85 spellpower and 35 spellpower enchant (casts done in caster form so spirit irrelevant)

Comparitively, taking off wrists which have equivalent of 129.2 spellpower takes per tick to 589.

547*1.1 = 601.7

you do the rest.

edit: oh and I'm using glyph.

edit2:
2pc + glyph tooltip = 2107 nature damage over 14 seconds.
glyph and no 2pc tooltip = 1953-1960 nature damage over 14 seconds.

#26 Erdluf

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 01:34 PM

edit2:
2pc + glyph tooltip = 2107 nature damage over 14 seconds.
glyph and no 2pc tooltip = 1953-1960 nature damage over 14 seconds.

That says the 2pc is additive.

mmo says untalented IS is 1290.

Splendor adds a tick: 1290*7/6 = 1505
Glyph adds 30%: 1505*1.3 = 1956.5
Additive 2pc gives: 1505*(1+.3+.1) = 2107

#27 Creepy_inc

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 07:11 PM

I am using the Starfire, Moonfire, and Innervate glyphs, and I think that these are the best choices for a 25man raid considering the limited debuff slots that we have. IS is not worth a debuff slot imo unless it is applying the -3% hit debuff.


There is no debuff limit anymore, even if the UI can't show it they are still there.

#28 khel

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 03:07 PM

There is no debuff limit anymore, even if the UI can't show it they are still there.


I posted that before Blizzard announced the debuff changes, but yes you are correct. With the most challenging encounter in game currently being Sartharion with 3 drakes up, and for the most part dps on the drakes being more important than a -3% physical hit debuff on them or Sartharion, I am changing my 3rd glyph from Innervate to Insect Swarm.

For all other encounters currently, keeping the tank alive through physical damage is trivial, so I feel that I can justify using it for now and also have a bit more fun with the peen-meters as an added bonus.

#29 Guest_AlinaSedai_*

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 06:44 PM

I've heard several Moonkin question whether Glyph of Moonfire is worth it. They see 75% increase and 90% decrease and think, "Doesn't that mean I'm losing more damage than I'm gaining?" The thing with Moonfire is, the DoT is _more damage_ than the initial blast. Overall, it is a net increase in Moonfire damage, even when not boosted by the Starfire glyph.

To be honets, it really depends on your cycle, and how you use moonfire. If you are one that uses MF in your cycle, and if you have the starfire glyph and your cycle is dependent on SF then its an amazing glyph. If you are like me, and you rarely use moonfire besides an initial blow, or a finishing blow, then its pretty useless.
Also the fact that you cannot switch glyphs with ease, having this glyph and pvping causes a lot of difficulties. How often do you actually use Moonfire as a DoT in pvp? rarly, but its used to finish off a running healer pretty often!

So yes its an amazing glyph for a starfire based cycle, but for a wrath based cycle its not so amazing. :)

#30 Erdluf

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 08:05 PM

The value of the MF glyph depends on how many ticks you get. On a Boss you should be getting at least five, but on trash (and in PvP), you might average considerably less.

At 50% MF crit (with CSD), fully talented, this shows the extra damage/cast you get from the Glyph, as a function of the number of DoT ticks. Third column assumes target has 10% resil (22% less crit damage, 10% less DoT damage).

Extra damage/cast from MF Glyph

Ticks	Glyph	10% Resil
0	-1247	-1149
1	-830	-749
2	-412	-350
3	6	50
4	423	449
5	841	848
6	1258	1248
7	1676	1647
8	2094	2047
At lower gear levels (say 1500 +spell), you need to average slightly more than three ticks for the Glyph to come out ahead.

#31 calderstrake

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 07:17 AM

Extra damage/cast from MF Glyph

Ticks	Glyph	10% Resil
0	-1247	-1149
1	-830	-749
2	-412	-350
3	6	50
4	423	449
5	841	848
6	1258	1248
7	1676	1647
8	2094	2047
At lower gear levels (say 1500 +spell), you need to average slightly more than three ticks for the Glyph to come out ahead.


Your math above shows that you need at least 6 ticks for the Glyph to come out ahead.

Anyway, I don't see why any raiding Moonkin wouldn't be taking Starfire and Moonfire with the only debatable glyph being the third. IS if your raid composition can use it and Innervate if it doesn't need it.

I hope we will get some more glyphs with 3.1 because it's getting to be pretty much a cookie cutter scenario here.

#32 Eilt

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 01:16 PM

Your math above shows that you need at least 6 ticks for the Glyph to come out ahead.


What am I missing here? It looks like the 3rd MF tick is the first with a gain....

#33 Erdluf

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 01:31 PM

Your math above shows that you need at least 6 ticks for the Glyph to come out ahead.

The chart shows cumulative damage. In round numbers, with the glyph, you do 1200 less direct damage, but make it up with ticks that do 400 extra damage, each. You break even after three ticks, and are ahead after four or more.

Anyway, I don't see why any raiding Moonkin wouldn't be taking Starfire and Moonfire with the only debatable glyph being the third.

Certainly true. I think the MF glyph is questionable, at best for PvP, since dispells, the need for instant casts, and short fights all tend to reduce the value of the DoT.

#34 zoneout

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 08:40 PM

Has anyone looked at the glyph of focus yet?

Glyph of Focus -- Increases the damage done by Starfall by 20%, but decreases its radius by 50%.

For a minor glyph, if you're trying to increase your dps, it seems like you can't really go wrong with it?

I'll probably drop dash for focus to help max. my dps.

P.S. I know it's not out quite yet.. 3.0.8??
P.P.S Seems like the reduced radius would be beneficial too in not aggroing something unintended...

#35 skeldi

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 08:46 PM

Has anyone looked at the glyph of focus yet?

Glyph of Focus -- Increases the damage done by Starfall by 20%, but decreases its radius by 50%.

For a minor glyph, if you're trying to increase your dps, it seems like you can't really go wrong with it?

I'll probably drop dash for focus to help max. my dps.


Starfall is an amazing spell even in single target scenarios. If you were to get this glyph, you'd have to dps from 18 yards away vs 36.

I personally find that a burden.

For raid aoeing, it's also less likely to hit the mobs you want to hit (I'm not always standing smack dab in the middle of them).

For aoe grinding, this is an amazing glyph.

#36 Cycloni

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:27 AM

Has anyone confirmed that it is actually a Minor Glyph? I've been trying to find out whether it is or not with little success.

Also the Glyph of Typhoon, is that minor as well? - Off course it would be silly if either of these were major glyphs given that balance druids are very short on useful minor glyphs not to mention, the moonfire/sf combination with either IS or Inn in the third would make those 2 almost unused as Major glyphs.

#37 dukes

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:34 AM

The icons for the the Typhoon and Focus glyphs show blue ink; blue ink is indicative of it being a minor glyph. Add to this the distinct lack of minor glyphs, the fact there's already a starfall major glyph (increases duration by 2 seconds) and it's very likely that both of the new glyphs are minor glyphs.

#38 zoneout

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:56 PM

My bad for not linking my sources... I basically brought up this talent calc from MMO champion, and on the right, it has slots for your major and minor glyphs, and has Focus as minor.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid

#39 Eilt

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 06:34 PM

I seem to be in the minority here, but I am a huge advocate of the knockback on Typhoon and will not be picking up the glyph. There are a few reasons for this, but the biggest two are below:

1. The knockback IS useful in raids in the first place. Let me back up though, first I must admit I have never been yelled at or informed to not use my knockback on AoE pulls. The mobs usually just run right back to the tank and most of the time no one probably realizes it happens. On this same note, there are even a couple of fights where I have come to rely on the knockback. As others have mentioned using it on skeles for gluth is nice if one slips by. In fact, I position myself close to gluth so I can protect from this happening. Also, on Gothik there are times when healers aggro mobs right off the back, so again I am proactive and stand just in front of them, so that as mobs run to them I can knock them back so a tank has time to pick them up. There may even be more uses for Typhoon, but these 2 fights jump out at me when I think about how I use Typhoon in a raid.

2. My second gripe with this glyph is cery simply that it offers no REAL PvE benefit. As we all have talked about in other threads and here, mana is NOT an issue. Would I consider giving up the knockback for extra damage? Yes. But to save mana? It just is not worth it.

Now that being said I can see this glyph being very nice for any moonkin who is getting in trouble for using typhoon on AoE packs, but to be honest I can not see an issue with doing it. If it made a tank lose aggro it would be an issue, otherwise there is no hard by the little knockback.

#40 Balancemoon

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 08:40 AM

I would be taking it for raids, personally, it will help me with less mana, but I have noticed that certain tanks really hate the knockback effect, alot. Especially warriors who have a harder time with aoe tanking.

It also seems to confuses quite a few tanks and annoy other AoEers that use targeters. The worse off course is Thunderstorm. So with Glyph of Focus available, I would like them to double if not treble the knockback distance of Typhoon, because outside raids, I can always reglyph. [if you're not a scribe, just gather mats for 10 Glyphs and ask a friend to make.

I use to time my Typhoons with stuns or Frost Novas, but that very often meant interrupting a Hurricane and wasting mana recasting onek with this Glyph to avoid annoying tanks and other AoEers, I can avoid that.




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