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Restoration Glyphs


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#41 Anaram

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 06:57 AM

Unless I'm mistaken glyphs are generally supposed to be worth about 1-2 talent points while talent points are worth 1-2% more damage/healing. This is a bit more difficult to measure for glyphs with both negative and positive effects while some provide benefits difficult to measure. 1% healing from rejuvenation glyph is not totally out of line. It's definitely on the lower end of the spectrum but that 1% it actually does give usually comes at a very opportune time.

For comparison: in the WWS above the maximum theoretical benefit regrowth glyph could have given was about 2% (if you exclude all the rounding then it's actually only 50% more than what regrowth glyph actually gave). Of course if you only refresh existing regrowth 50% of the time then this is already significantly less than the rejuvenation glyph and without the benefits of healing "when it's most needed".

#42 Gurth

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 09:30 AM

I think that regrowth glyph is overpowered at the moment, i expect it to be toned down in a future patch.

Swiftmend is extremely nice, at least for my playstyle.

I'm not decided yet if going lifebloom, innervate or rejuvenation.

Innervate is the most versatile but is it worth a major considering what other classes get? I think not. I will raid 10 man mostly and chanches are that i will usually use innervate on me rather than the other healer and with the amount of spirit we'll have an extra 20% seems irrilevant. I guess it becomes more appealing in 25 mans.

Lifebloom is nice and versatile. It helps getting more LB stacks out and give more time to do other things. It's hard to quantify exact benefit from this, as it greatly vary from situation to situation, but longer hots are always welcome in my opinion.

Rejuvenation pro and cons are already vastly discussed in this thread. I personally think it's not worth, 3 sec hot ticks are just too slow to be handy, especially when the tank need the healing (<50%). I see us using rejuvenation less and less often in the future. LB stacks + glyphed regrowth and swiftmend seems the most efficient way to heal, with occasional nourish (t7 bonus).

#43 Scurn

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 03:42 PM

I'm usually feral but due to a lot of new people wanting to tank I've decided to practice with the new healing spells. I don't think I have great gear, mainly some Sunwell and wotlk blues, but I haven't had mana problems on pretty much any fight except 4 Horseman. We've done all 10man Naxx and all but the Abom wing in 25man Naxx. This isn't some veiled I'm amazing post, I'm really curious where the mana problems are coming from for other druids. In 10man Naxx I usually give away my Innervate to the local shadow priest as well.

Is the fact that I always have replenishment masking the mana problem? I'm usually on the tank rolling full hots and nourish/swiftmend with some minor aoe help for the 2nd healer. Are most druids aoe healing? I've found that with full hots up I can sit on a clearcasting proc and regen a significant amount of mana and then twist it into an expensive spell like regrowth or wild growth. For my casting style I've found that the single point in omen of clarity amounts to a huge amount of mana return if you count the out of 5 second rule regen that it allows. The other druids have complained about running out of mana but I have consistently out healed them. As a raid leader I feel I need to understand where this problem stems from so I can try to fix or mitigate it as best as possible.

#44 Lightflower

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 11:28 PM

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Scurn. I'm finding myself cranking the volume up so that I don't miss that all important Clearcasting proc sound and I've been holding off on chaincasting to ensure that I don't waste a proc on a 'cheap' Lifebloom when I could be using it for Regrowth or even Tranquility. At the very least, sitting on the proc and waiting until the last second to refresh a LB stack still gets you many seconds of out of FSR time.

The other thing that seems to be working against some of the Druids I've seen is the easy availability of "Balance" leather with int/stam/crit/SP (and maybe haste). Quite a few of them seem to be using a much higher proportion of direct heals than HoTs which means that clearcasting can't be leveraged into any out of FSR time.

The value of clearcasting will increase with Glyph of Lifebloom (which isn't yet available on my server) allowing more time in the healing cycle.

#45 Woodwynd

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 10:50 PM

The problem I've had while deciding on my glyphs has been the variety of roles i've had to play. I've healed all the 10-content and all the 25-content save Saph, Kel and Malygos, and my role really is different everytime.

All of the glyphs come with benefits that are dependent on the fight, the group size and the raid comp. For example 10-Naxx with 2 healers you and a Paladin, well you going to have to raid heal. Raid healing is mana intensive especially considering wildgrowth is sometimes hard to spread reliably. Other times i find myself doing more focused tank healing, like patchwork no matter what raid-comp or size, or if i'm running 10-Malygos with a priest.

All things considered, until more content or some mechanics changes i'll be going with Regrowth, Rejuv and Swiftmend. I'll most likely replace Rejuv with Innervate once i've recieved enough gear that Innervate on myself is a rarity. That may be next week at this rate though.




On a side note, I agree with you Scurn the problem with mana is mostly a result of "AoE" Healing. As a guild and class leader myself I've noticed other druids spam the raid too much. The result is usually a high start on the "overall healing" meters but then they run out of mana and stable-controlled heals see the fight through (This is one reason i no longer have an active meter, just wws). In 25-content i've usually found a solid hot rotation on the tank, with swiftmend and norish for spike management does the trick with a WG on the tank as well to hit the melee and then one on ranged groups.

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 04:01 PM

Is the fact that I always have replenishment masking the mana problem? I'm usually on the tank rolling full hots and nourish/swiftmend with some minor aoe help for the 2nd healer. Are most druids aoe healing? The other druids have complained about running out of mana but I have consistently out healed them. As a raid leader I feel I need to understand where this problem stems from so I can try to fix or mitigate it as best as possible.



Are the other druids you're talking about in your raid, or just in general? I've noted (as I'm sure plenty of others have as well) that there's a direct interplay between DPS and healing - If DPS is slow/unsure of positioning, then obviously mana is going to be strained for healers. My guild did nothing more than Kara/ZA in TBC (no T6 rolling into WotLK), and the only fight I've had trouble with mana so far is Patchwerk.

I really believe the mana issues will start to sort themselves out as DPS learn fights to finish them faster and gear progression allows everyone more efficient numbers. I wonder if we'll look back at our mana concerns in 1-2 months and laugh?

As such, I will be rolling Regrowth/Lifebloom/Swiftmend, because as noted above, the interplay of Regrowth and Swiftmend is pretty awesome and Lifebloom is our bread-and-butter.

#47 Nitz

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 11:50 AM

Of course, when fight is on farm there isn't a lot of mana concerns. But since farm fights doesn't matter, he is obviously talking about progression fights where mana does matter.

#48 Rhaegal

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 01:30 PM

I really believe the mana issues will start to sort themselves out as DPS learn fights to finish them faster and gear progression allows everyone more efficient numbers. I wonder if we'll look back at our mana concerns in 1-2 months and laugh?


Agreed. I didn't have much gear from T6 content going into WotLK, but I've noticed huge steps forward in longevity just from primarily heroic and emblem gear while I wait on my friends to finish leveling. With 10 second lifeblooms ticking for over 1000 now, and around 1000 mp5 while not casting without even having any Naxx drops yet, the mana situation is already starting to sort itself out even without Replenishment. I feel like I'm back to pre-WotLK regen, and am seriously considering shifting to a more aggressive almost full red gem style, particularly once I do start picking up raid gear. I really have no desire to switch one of my glyphs out for Innervate.
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#49 Inara

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:27 PM

I'm using swiftmend, lifebloom, and innervate. These work great for my style of play.

#50 Lord BEEF

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 04:38 PM

I've found the innervate glyph to be a bit underwhelming. When used on myself it's overkill especially since I picked up . I was getting something silly like 28,000 mana back when I combined innervate with that. Enough to spam regrowth the entire duration of innervate and still come out with full mana.

When used on others I feel it doesn't give you enough mana, and comes out pretty close to just using a runic mana potion. While it's nice to have a second potion in a fight, it's hardly comparable to a full refill that I'm used to.

#51 Ruby Moon

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 05:05 PM

I use the Innervate Glyph because most of the times I end up using my Innervate on the holy priest, so getting a small effect of it helps a lot. When I get more regen gear and get more confident about my mana I'll probably get Regrowth, but what I'm seeing lately is that at least to me this glyphs look way more useful in 5 and 10 mans; there's so much damage and heal flying around in 25 mans that I hardly ever use anything out of HoTs.

#52 Naithin

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:10 PM

My glyphs currently consist of:

- Regrowth
- Swiftmend (finally discovered on our server)
- Innervate

Regrowth is an easy choice for me. It was mentioned earlier by Anaram that this only works if you can handle unreliable heals. But I find that Regrowth - while cast with a previous regrowth still up - even on a non crit heals for at least as much as- perhaps slightly more than- a non crit Nourish. I'm aware that when comparing Nourish to Regrowth, even if they heal for the same value that Nourish puts out a better HPM (especially if talented) and also has the benefit of not resetting the HoT portion of Regrowth, both things which work in it's favour.. But.. I find that the 62ish % chance I have of a crit on RG (with current gear, bound to go up over time) more than out weighs the potential (38% chance, currently) loss of HPM.

If RG does crit, it heals for an incredible amount and plants a Living Seed, further increasing the HPM values.

All that said, I don't consider RG a spammable spell. Unbeknownest to me until I actually got the RG glyph for myself, the glyph actually applies to the HoT as well, not just the initial heal. Meaning that you definitely want that thing to be ticking as much as you can. Glyphed RG HoT ticks for just over 1k for me now which is nothing to sneeze at. It is very much worth using RG twice in a row (although not if it's going to be close to 100% overheal, then can wait a bit on it) in order to get the increased HoT value.

Swiftmend glyph is an absolute joy. Yes, it has the obvious benefit of saving you a little mana in not having to reapply Rejuv every time you use it, and a GCD for the same reason, but probably more important to me than these is the fact that using a SM no longer has any chance of resetting the tick timer. You can SM and then have a 1.6k rejuv tick immediately after (followed by a 1k regrowth as per above)!

Finally Innervate. This is one that eventually I likely will swap out - whether it will be for LB or Rejuv is still a matter of debate, I haven't been convinced either way yet. Primarily because due to my latency (I play from New Zealand) refreshing LB in the very last second is a risky and potentially costly move. So given that I have to query the utility of one extra second of LB for myself. Rejuv +50% tick is fantastic, but it's requirement to go off (target under 50% hp) means that really it won't be doing very much most of the time. Of course as others have said, when it does go off you can be sure it was very much needed.. But then the question is, is it really enough?

But I wander there.. Innervate! It is a fantastic glyph. The priest I roll with in my guild has a much, much higher mana pool than me (22k to my 18k or so when we're raid buffed) but doesn't regen naturally quite as well. Being able to toss an innervate on him while still getting some value out of it myself is invaluable right now. That said, we're not full epic'd out yet, and even when we will be, it'll be from 10m raids/heroism badges/heroic epics, not 25m content. So it is possible by the time we get here, and then wish to progress into Ulduar when released etc, that Innervate glyph will maintain it's value. It's too hard to call at this point.

#53 Finhosh

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:37 PM

Of all the joy and discussion on the major glyphs, we haven't discussed what and why we should pick from the minor glyphs. I know that they aren't the best in the world, but how should we gage the "usefulness" of them? The benefits I see from the glyphs I chose did two things that are needed in every online role-playing game, increase inventory space, move my character faster. So for these reasons I chose

Unburdened Rebirth (less reagents to carry)
Dash (dash more often)
Aquatic Form (move faster underwater)

I see a lot of people picking up Glyph of the Wild, which may occasionally save you some time, but in my experience after casting a full-cost gift, I still have my mana up to full before the Palidan.

With the "Dash more often" glyph I am able to get away in sticky situations (ie, prevent my own death in a wipe scenario)

I see no usefulness for a tree to take the 1 hour thorns glyph because I use my 10 minute buff as a timer for the thorns I throw on the tank (if he is not a feral druid).

#54 Lord BEEF

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:51 PM

The only minor glyph I see getting much actual use out of in a raid situation is glyph of the wild. And even then, only for giving someone mark of the wild after I battle res them.

I guess theoretically lower cooldown dash and faster aquatic form could help in raids, but I don't see much use for them in current content.

#55 Naithin

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:55 PM

Minor glyphs I have pretty much the same as you, Fin, except I did opt for the Glyph of the Wild as opposed to Dash. Dash glyph reduces the CD on Dash by 20% right? Basically meaning you can do it every 2.5m instead of every 3m? 30 sec reduction on dash timer didn't seem all that big a deal to me. If I'm having to Dash more often than that, I want to know why! Of course, in PvP that would be quite a different story.

Of course, this is not to say that GotW is a huge benefit either, but, eh. I do like it. 1k mana raid buff ftw. :P Although I guess one more serious argument for it would be that if someone has to take a bres during a fight, it is far more paletable to drop a 400ish mana mark than an 800ish one.

Edit: Was beaten to the punch on the bres thing! But good to see someone shares my thoughts on that. :)

#56 Rhaegal

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 09:17 PM

Of all the joy and discussion on the major glyphs, we haven't discussed what and why we should pick from the minor glyphs.


Most likely because none of our minor glyphs have any real raid benefit, at least for resto. Thorns has some minor benefit for tank druids, otherwise all of ours are either space saving or only really useful soloing. The posters above me do have a good point with Glyph of the Wild saving a little mana for people who were just battle rezzed. Being able to dash more and swim faster just don't have much raid application.

This is in contrast to some classes actually have some significant raid value in their minor glyphs; being a good example, especially for resto shaman, for whom this has the indirect effect of raising the HPS/HPM of Lesser Healing Wave. None of ours really have any constant beneficial effects to our healing. (Which is fine, I don't really feel like minor glyphs should have that much of an impact, Water Shield just ended up being a nice exception.)
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#57 Fenrirberserker

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 07:56 PM

Alo, I've got a question and wanted to see if my math was correct on this.

So if you have 3/3 Moonglow (9% off Healing Touch cost), 5/5 Tranquil Spirit (10% off Healing Touch cost), and Glyph of Healing Touch (25% off Healing Touch cost), does that equate to the below equation?

33% Base Mana * 0.91 (Moonglow) * 0.90 (Tranquil Spirit) * 0.75 (Glyph) = 20.27% base mana?

If that statement is true, then would glyphing Healing Touch and those talents make it approximately as much as Nourish, but much more efficient because Talented with Empowered Touch (40% more bonus healing on Healing Touch) would give it a coefficient of 226% of spell power vs. Nourish's 80% or so?

All that would make Healing Touch a 1 Second cast spell with Naturalist. If you use Regrowth to proc Nature's Grace in Balance, wouldn't that make a huge heal drop with approximately 0.5 second cast timer?

Basically then you are just racing the GCD for big fast heals. Please someone tell me if I'm reading into this right.

#58 Rijndael

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 10:58 PM

If that statement is true, then would glyphing Healing Touch and those talents make it approximately as much as Nourish, but much more efficient because Talented with Empowered Touch (40% more bonus healing on Healing Touch) would give it a coefficient of 226% of spell power vs. Nourish's 80% or so?


The glyph of healing touch, to the best of my knowledge, halves the final heal value. This means it halves both the base heal and the coefficient.

Here's the essential tradeoff with the glyph of healing touch. Your first two glyphs will generally be swiftmend and regrowth (or so is the consensus as I see it). Your third glyph will either be something like innervate or lifebloom (in which case you use nourish for emergency heals, but can also use nature's swiftness + healing touch), OR you use healing touch glyph (in which case your glyphed healing touch acts like a nourish but slightly more expensive and without the HOT bonus, AND you can no longer use NS+HT). The advantage of glyphed healing touch is that it lands 0.5 seconds faster than nourish. If you cast it after a crit, and you have a bit of haste, it can even land instantly (though you still have the GCD to deal with).

Since the primary point of nourish/glyphed HT is 'flash heal', that is saving people who are low RIGHT NOW, the faster landing may be worth a major glyph (and spending extra 10-12 talents point on healing touch vs things like improved tree of life and living seed which are also fairly minor boosts). Or it may not if you want to let other classes handle that. It helps that the third major glyph for resto druids doesn't have a strong contender.

Edit: If you gear for a lot of haste, glyph of healing touch becomes very strong, I think. This is because druids primarily cast a lot of instant cast spells + Regrowth. Regrowth has a 60%+ to crit with typical gear, which means Nature's Grace will typically be up a lot. Nature's Grace is not consumed by instant spells. That means that if you have enough haste to reduce glyphed healing touch casting time by 0.5 seconds, then with Nature's Grace up your glyphed healing touches will be instant. This is like having Swiftmend, but you can use it a lot more frequently (using Regrowths to regenerate Nature's Grace of course). Of course this is a questionable benefit for using so much itemvalue on haste, which is otherwise not a great stat for druids.

#59 Vazu

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 11:47 PM

I have to say that Nature's Splendor in combination with the Lifebloom glyph have really fit in perfectly with my healing style. I'm a big fan of "set it and forget it" HOTs. I love being able to stack 3x Lifebloom on a tank and then help top the raid off. Those 8ish seconds (with GCDs considered) of freedom to focus on other things have made me so much more aware. I would highly recommend anyone to give it a shot. If you are someone who is good with a HOT timer and refreshing at that 1s mark, it scales with gear nicely.

I've heard mixed things about the Regrowth glyph in terms of bugs. Is it working as intended for sure?

Glyph of Rejuvination is a waste in my personal opinion. Anything that requires your target to be below 50% health seems very lame to me for PVE. I could see it being useful in PVP where a Druid may need a few extra seconds to drink and someone may need that extra healing, but it's just not reliable from a mana efficiency standpoint to rely on "ifs".

Glyph of Innervate is very nice. I really need to ask my raid how people feel about their mana. I think as the content gets more difficult, I may swap out Lifebloom and start using it. However right now I just don't hear anyone in our raid complaining about being OOM. Replenishment and people stacking +INT combined with the instant farm status content we're clearing just doesn't really push anyone at the moment. So, we'll see..

#60 Playered

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 01:00 AM

Glyph of Innervate is highly overrated in my opinion.

Unless you take gear without Spirit rather too often (or are horribly undergeared with level 70 items) then you will get enough mana from the base spell itself.

Any fight you are willing to give your Innervate away for doesn't matter and causes no stress on your mana that a potion wont cover.
If people are begging for your Innervate then I would guess they are also heavily lacking gear too and could use some time in Heroics (or you have really horrible DPS in your raid - but then you will need IV yourself so...).

Any fight you need your Innervate you will end up getting something stupid like 10,000 mana excess and at this level of gear I doubt you have enough haste to consume anywhere near that much.
This could be wrong if you are in full Int/Sta/SP/Haste gear or something but.. well if you are doing that then I doubt you read this website or are even aware of glyphs.




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