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Moonkin Raiding


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#1 Rosoo

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 03:50 PM

This thread is for discussions focusing on all raiding aspects of moonkin, 10 and 25 man. There are many choices of focus within our talent tree, and it'd be good to see some parses posted once more of us start raiding.

Currently, I'm specced without IIS in favor of Dreamstate and Intensity, and focus on using starfire to proc Eclipse. This has netted me less than stellar DPS in 25mans. While it's been competitive, I believe dropping trees and intensity for IIS while using wrath to proc eclipse will net much more overall damage.

All of my parses, past and present, can be found here : Player Report: Rosoo

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#2 thedopefishlives

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 04:18 PM

Trees are a not-insignificant source of DPS at level 80, if you can keep them alive for their entire duration and cast them on cooldown. The main trouble with them seems to be in the former, however, so I suppose if you think you can squeeze ~5% dps by putting that talent point elsewhere, do so.

#3 tr33hugger

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 04:29 PM

I didn't play beta so i couldn't gain any experience what moonkin raiding is like in wrath, but the last few days i realized that i often run out of mana especially in 10mans when you have to switch between single target nukes and AEing (hello Gluth/Anub). So i sacrificed Celestial Focus (which will further increase your mana usage) and trained out of Nature's Reach. Seriously, i have not yet come to the point where i really needed to cast from 36 yards range.. maybe it spares you a second when running from one horseman to another or doing one second worth of damage more at Anub, but it's far more destructive if you run out of mana. And the threat part ? Tanks TPS' like hell, even if i have 5 crits in a row at the start of an encounter i don't reach 130%. Also i took out typhoon to get the last point for 3/3 eclipse.

This may ofc be subject to change when i get more crit% (mine's at 21% in Moonkin atm, was almost 30 pre-wrath) or take a lot of crit/sd/spirit gear from naxx, but at this state i like to not have to rely on replenish in heroics or 10mans.

This is my current built. Still thinking about going imp FF instead of IS, gonna have to work that out.

#4 erragal

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 05:23 PM

Trees are a not-insignificant source of DPS at level 80, if you can keep them alive for their entire duration and cast them on cooldown. The main trouble with them seems to be in the former, however, so I suppose if you think you can squeeze ~5% dps by putting that talent point elsewhere, do so.



On Force of Nature:

I don't have too much trouble keeping the trees alive so far in Naxx-10. Razuvious is the worst offender, but their increased health allows them to take the first shout without dying. Judgement of Light can actually allow for self-healing enough to survive multiple aoes too. Best results I've had are using them very early before many of the aoe mechanics start; this also increases the chance for a second activation. There's no way you'll do more total damage without FoN as long as they stay alive for about 6 or 7 seconds, though your personal 'DPS' may be higher.

Placement is key, you want to place them so they'll run straight at the back of the boss for their pathing instead of running through for potential cleaves/breaths. On dragons you cast them about three yards from his flank and they'll stay there safely.

Once you hit 25 mans with all raid buffs you'll see how fast and hard they hit. Brambles is also about equal to improved moonfire if they're pushing 9-11% of your total damage (Most fights they were 7-9% of mine in the 10-man) and that's ignoring the benefit to thorns damage. Part of maximizing trees is having them out for bloodlust; our Enh. Shaman raid leader calls out 5 seconds before so Trees/Elementals/Wolves can get full benefit. Having spell power trinkets/procs/consumables up during that time isn't a bad decision either, so that those benefits are applying to as much of your DPS as possible. Practice, timing, and knowledge are necessary to use this talent. There's also the very real potential of a future set bonus, idol, or trinket that significantly buffs their damage output.

One nice thing: if your tank moves soon enough Treants will do the Safety Dance, likely better than half your raid the first few times!

On Tr33hugger:

Range is extremely valuable as those extra seconds are lost total damage that most people don't notice because it won't change your "DPS" number. Threat is very important on aggro wipe encounters and to give aoe tanks more breathing room for pickup on boss fights. I don't know why you would drop Typhoon for the marginal 3rd point in Eclipse, when it's a significant snap aoe on some boss fights as well as usable on the move for ST bosses (Which don't get knockedback). That third point in eclipse is one of the least valuable pure DPS points we can spend. You'd also benefit more from a SF-W-SF (Starfire, wrath on eclipse, Starfire till proc) rotation if you're mana strapped. If your mana is really that poor just drop wrath/eclipse altogether.

How are you having so much mana trouble as to need 3/3 DS and Intensity? Are you running with replenishment and at least one Paladin? Remind them that Blessing of wisdom is better than Kings for you if there's only one paladin. Ten-mans were designed for at least one replenishment giver in the raid, if not then you want to regear heavily for spirit and drop the IS glyph for the innervate one. You are self-innervating correct? Do you have spirit on any of your gear as well?

Crit is still our least valuable rating point for point, especially in a Starfire heavy rotation. Once hit capped you want Spell Power and Haste. Spirit is only best when you're running out of mana, so finding the right value for you is important. Having gear switches for different bosses is a future min-max technique we'll want to employ in addition to spec changes.

EDIT: Removed as this is the raid thread, so lets keep away from discussing five-man viability.

#5 dukes

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 06:03 PM

Treants are also another instant ability to use. Between Treants, Typhoon, Starfall, IS, FF and Moonfire, there's a serious number of different things you can use when it's called for you to move in an encounter.

#6 spartakos

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 09:17 AM

I have a question. In a raid where you have both SP and feral druid and you are forced to get IFF in case the SP dies is the 3% crit worth the GCD?

#7 Moonkin Kai

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 10:57 AM

What will be our staple gems for gear this time around? I'm assuming Red=Spellpower/Spellpower + Hit/Spellpower + Haste, Yellow=Spellpower + Hit/Spellpower + Haste and Blue=Spellpower + Spirit, however, how about Meta gems? Does the 3% Crit damage still make the Chaotic Skyfire/Skyflare the best or is there a better Meta gem for Druids now?

Also this is the spec I'm using atm for 10 Man Naxx

http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=000000000000

I have no mana problems and give out an okay DPS at around 2.6-2.7k, however, I'm unsure whether 3 Brambles is worth the investment or not. Are there currently any calc numbers about rotations at all btw because currently my rotation is a bit all over the place.

#8 Kuruk

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 11:20 AM

I don't think that Improved Faerie Fire is worth a GCD until very high damage levels.

As for what gems are staple, Hit is extremely tough to get in WLK especially at the beginning. Hence I will probably end up putting the yellow +Hit gem everywhere. If you really want to get that bonus, pick Spellpower and Hit (Red), Hit (Yellow), Spellpower and Stamina/Spirit (Blue).

#9 spartakos

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:16 PM

A tip about hit gear is this quest Mystery of the Infinite, Redux - Quest - World of Warcraft

#10 dukes

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 12:44 PM

The hit cap should not be hard to hit. Reverred with Kirin Tor will get you the , 25 heroic badges will get you to go with it. 25 more badges will get , or you can do a quest chain in Icecrown for . Getting the trinket Spartakos just mentioned will also help, and there is also the from Violet Hold heroic. There are a couple of good rings to get, including from Krystallus in Halls of Stone, and (Jewelcrafting). At Ebon Blade Honoured you can get the .

Between these items, you can get 72 + 25 + 55 + 73 + 51 + 31 + 29 hit rating, or 336 hit rating total. Add on a 20 hit rating enchant to gloves, along with any +hit on normal armour and you should easily be able to hit the cap in a pre-raid set of gear.

#11 erragal

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 02:23 PM

I have a question. In a raid where you have both SP and feral druid and you are forced to get IFF in case the SP dies is the 3% crit worth the GCD?


You shouldn't be doing this. If the shadow priest dies often enough for this to be an issue you probably need to stop bringing him to your raids. I wouldn't make a hunter spec survival for a second/third replenishment just in case the shadowpriest dies either; people should be expected to live barring actual one shot mechanics similar to Azgalor/Teron.

#12 lissanna

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 03:31 PM

There should be very few situations where having a moonkin put up Improved Faerie Fire is a good idea. Maybe if you are running 10-mans instead of 25-mans, and you have casters that aren't hit capped, and you don't have anyone to put up the hit or armor debuffs, then it might be worthwhile.

However, if you are running with a shadow priest, or everyone is hit capped, or you have a feral druid/hunter putting up the armor debuff... then those three points are better spent somewhere else.

#13 Fillos

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 05:16 PM

On Force of Nature:
Crit is still our least valuable rating point for point, especially in a Starfire heavy rotation. Once hit capped you want Spell Power and Haste. Spirit is only best when you're running out of mana, so finding the right value for you is important. Having gear switches for different bosses is a future min-max technique we'll want to employ in addition to spec changes.


well i agree with most of you points but somehow i can't see why crit is so bad? in dne end crit = haste through NG, mana through moonkin and well... damage. correct me if i'm wrong, before a gather too much crit items.
we are about to clear 25 naxx today and so far i'm quite happy with my dam output, though the unreliability of wrath triggering eclipse.

#14 Kuruk

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 05:19 PM

well i agree with most of you points but somehow i can't see why crit is so bad?


Because of its very high itemisation cost.

#15 Rosoo

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 06:31 PM

well i agree with most of you points but somehow i can't see why crit is so bad? in dne end crit = haste through NG, mana through moonkin and well... damage. correct me if i'm wrong, before a gather too much crit items.
we are about to clear 25 naxx today and so far i'm quite happy with my dam output, though the unreliability of wrath triggering eclipse.


Waiting for wrath to trigger Eclipse can be quite a pain at sometimes. The worst offender is trash, but it means for less then. I've found it to be pretty reliable on bosses, and streaks where I have to spend 10+ seconds of wrathing are few and far between.

#16 sapota

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 07:16 PM

Waiting for wrath to trigger Eclipse can be quite a pain at sometimes.


Apologies if this was answered previously: was/is there consensus on stop-casting an extra wrath when eclipse procs to immediately start the eclipsed starfire, or better to just let the extra wrath fly? Sitting on about 150-180 latency lately, so I'm relying on the pre-cast pretty heavilly. Thanks!

#17 thedopefishlives

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 07:17 PM

Apologies if this was answered previously: was/is there consensus on stop-casting an extra wrath when eclipse procs to immediately start the eclipsed starfire, or better to just let the extra wrath fly? Sitting on about 150-180 latency lately, so I'm relying on the pre-cast pretty heavilly. Thanks!


You should never, ever cancel a cast for any reason short of impending death. The extra time in Eclipse that you get from canceling your Wrath is not worth the time you lose casting a partial Wrath and canceling.

#18 Adoriele

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 07:17 PM

Apologies if this was answered previously: was/is there consensus on stop-casting an extra wrath when eclipse procs to immediately start the eclipsed starfire, or better to just let the extra wrath fly? Sitting on about 150-180 latency lately, so I'm relying on the pre-cast pretty heavilly. Thanks!


Stopping a cast in progress is never the right choice when it comes to Eclipse. You will always lose too much casting time to make it worthwhile.

e:Dammit, Dope!

#19 Fillos

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 07:44 PM

thaddius is a pretty tough encounter when it come to keep an eye on the proc, bec you should in any case stop casting and get the hell out of your side if there is a switch, even if your happy that the damn thing finally proced ;)

to the typhoon topic: beside the damage and the occasional whining of meeles bec of the knock back (well, its aktually is annoying) it's very usefull eg at Gluth to kick the adds back into the room before they can reach him! or simply ridding a healer if the offtanks is too slow.

btw: Kel down an hour ago ;)

#20 klüger

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:47 AM

Because of its very high itemisation cost.


Then if crit costs "more" on itemization compared to hit, it could be worth to trade BoP for ff or Iis? (though it would have to be twice as costly, so maybe not...)

I've been operating under BoP being a very good talent due to freeing up many item budget points for a "low" talent point cost. Is this still true?




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