Jump to content


Photo

Moonkin Raiding


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3383 replies to this topic

#21 dukes

dukes

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2034 posts

Posted 21 November 2008 - 12:12 PM

Then if crit costs "more" on itemization compared to hit, it could be worth to trade BoP for ff or Iis? (though it would have to be twice as costly, so maybe not...)

I've been operating under BoP being a very good talent due to freeing up many item budget points for a "low" talent point cost. Is this still true?


Hit is ~26 per %, crit is ~45 per %. BoP is still more rating points / talent point than any of the +crit talents (with the exception of Moonkin form/Natures Majesty, of course). There may be situations where, because of the gear you have, it could be worth dropping a point in BoP compared to picking up the crit talents.

Your argument works for haste compared to crit though, as Haste is ~32 per %. Erdluf has shown in the other thread (->) that the haste from talents is worth more than actual haste rating though, so it'll depend on your gear level as to which is more beneficial I think.

#22 Ashaera

Ashaera

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 141 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 02:17 AM

Had our first Naxx 25tonight.
- Moonkin dps feels very strong, fx 4.7k dps (Wow Web Stats)
- With Intensity, Omen of Clarity, 1/3 Moonglow mana felt like a non-issue - Even though I do my best to avoid spirit & mp5 on gear. Only Kel'thuzad was a problem, but our kill was very messy & I tried going maxdps rotation to see the result.
- With the amount of crit % buffs a 25man offers then running 2/3 eclipse felt just fine. Was using Starfire to proc it mostly though.

I'm still torn on how to handle rotations during heroism &/or Potion of Speed - With both up it feels wrong using anything apart from Starfire as dotting/casting wrath & getting 0.3-0.4 seconds of waiting time gives me a bad feeling. My performance seems to drop compared to mages & hunters while under the same hastebuffs.

#23 Wangmu

Wangmu

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 05:24 AM

It seems to me that a number of the things suggested give you better numbers maybe over the raid, however in my eyes the things that count are in boss fights where it is more typically 1 target rather than multiple.

In terms of progression it is the boss fights that pose problems not AoE trash pulls
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
would stand to reason to be the best spec for those conditions with a possibility at changing Nature's Reach for Imp MF. depending on your Glyphs.

If someone has a Reason why they think AoE moves imps or treants would be a better Single target dps boost, then please illustrate it. I don't have math at my back to straighten my point this spec just seemed the most logical for those ends.

#24 dukes

dukes

    Bald Bull

  • Members
  • 2034 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 09:25 AM

Treants: Look at Ashaera's Patchwerk parse, and you'll see Treants did nearly 70k damage, over a ~240 second fight. If you assume that this is two casts then your GCD for the ability will mean ~2.5 seconds total cast time, or 28000 damage per second for casting. If you can keep them alive, they do a lot of damage. If you can't, then maximising their uptime and casting them at a good point (see: KT after he casts a frostbolt volley, Malygos after a vortex) you will still gain enough damage out of them that it's worth casting them and taking the talent point.

I'm not sure why you took so much regen? You should take as much regen as you require, don't just take every talent point of regen and assume it's a non-issue. When you're going for a maximum DPS spec, this doesn't quite add up, especially as the only way to spend that much mana is through the use of a lot of AoE, something you're specifically trying to avoid with that spec?

#25 Spink

Spink

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 110 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 10:37 AM

Is anyone else noticing that in a group semi optimised for mana regen (Mana Spring Totem, Ret Paladin Replenish, Improved Water Elemental, and Blessing of Wisdom) that it is actually impossible to run out of mana single target with only 3 mana regen talents (OOC, Dreamstate, Intensity)

I finished patchwerk10 with 90% mana and 2970 DPS tonight due to wrath spam and starfire during eclipse, which also allowed me to give my innervate to one of the healers. Most fights are in the upper 2500s at the least too. I haven't even got the wrath idol yet which I guess will add over 100 DPS to that number.

#26 Ashaera

Ashaera

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 141 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 03:41 PM

I will surely stick to 2/2 Gale Winds, Typhoon & Starfall as long as we are running Naxxramas -- Its a huge instance with quite alot of trash that can be aoe'd down - Sure noone cares what number you are on trash dps. But for speeding up instance clears, trash is usually what matters the most.

#27 erragal

erragal

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 269 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 03:54 PM

I will surely stick to 2/2 Gale Winds, Typhoon & Starfall as long as we are running Naxxramas -- Its a huge instance with quite alot of trash that can be aoe'd down - Sure noone cares what number you are on trash dps. But for speeding up instance clears, trash is usually what matters the most.



Agreed. At the very least I can't agree with EVER removing 2/2 Gale Winds if you care about anything other than your personal single target DPS number. The type of raider that thinks 'trash doesn't matter' also afk's through it and causes a two night clear to take three nights. You have more time for progression attempts if you clear bosses faster, most raid groups don't have unlimited time to play.

I've also had individuals in-game still thinking that our aoe dps was subpar compared to other aoe classes, and that we can't aoe on the move at all because we don't have arcane explosion. Typhoon is just so powerful and is really our new iconic spell; every single day I play I'm rewarded for using it properly. Hurricane is fully competitive with any other aoe class (It's also very useful when non-warriors are aoe tanking to apply pack-wide attack speed slow).


I don't feel Starfall is an easy pick in a spec where you need IFF but very doable when you can spec out of IFF.

#28 Frenzi

Frenzi

    King Hippo

  • Members
  • 705 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 04:10 PM

I've also had individuals in-game still thinking that our aoe dps was subpar compared to other aoe classes, and that we can't aoe on the move at all because we don't have arcane explosion. Typhoon is just so powerful and is really our new iconic spell; every single day I play I'm rewarded for using it properly. Hurricane is fully competitive with any other aoe class (It's also very useful when non-warriors are aoe tanking to apply pack-wide attack speed slow).


I am literally destroying everyone in AoE, only locks come close and that is when you can stand still. Mages seem to be the worst off at the moment, on Gluth last night (which Typhoon absolutely owns on BTW!) our mages were whining about being OOM when I was on 50% mana with Innervate and Pot still available. Mana was a major AoE concern after the nerfbat on Moonkin form but since getting 80 and being able to spec a few points in the regen talents + OOC mana problems have been a thing of the past.

I think the trick with the AoE is forward thinking, you need to be able to guess where mobs are going and it helps if you know your tanks well.

I specced out of Starfall as IFF was needed as our SP's are failing at levelling but I don't really miss it and the damage it did was quite poor.

After playing a mage for three years and switching to Moonkin my biggest concern was AoE but I don't regret a thing.
Posted Image

#29 Ripuanewhole

Ripuanewhole

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 06:46 PM

What do people think of the spec below for level 80 raiding to start.

http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=061119050406

One slight change tho, take out starfall and the 1 pt in genesis and put those 2 pts in Nature's Reach

#30 Alerian

Alerian

    playing by beerlight

  • Members
  • 366 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 06:55 PM

I did Naxx 25 for the first time last night without 2/2 GW and I did end up regretting that choice. I was 3/3 Owlkin as a holdover from Sunwell, but I'll be dropping those 3.

I don't feel Starfall is an easy pick in a spec where you need IFF but very doable when you can spec out of IFF.


If I remember though from the LK preview discussion Starfall was worth more dps than 1 point in iIS (based on Erdluf's math/rankings that he did at some point assuming 2000 spell power). I believe that the second point in Eclipse was worth more than a point in iIS as well, so I'm thinking something like 56/0/15, but I could be wrong about that second Eclipse point.

#31 Unknownchamp

Unknownchamp

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 07:20 PM

What do people think of the spec below for level 80 raiding to start.

http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=061119050406

One slight change tho, take out starfall and the 1 pt in genesis and put those 2 pts in Nature's Reach


I can't view this while at work because of content filtering... *grumble, grumble*

But to me 1 pt in genesis is a waste of a point especially for 1% increased duration.

#32 Kuruk

Kuruk

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 90 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 07:23 PM

Erragal makes a great point here. I was one of those people who thought "trash didn't matter" and was planning to skip AOE talents completely but the combination of the discussion on those forums, the testimonials from people raiding already and my personal experience of using those talents have changed my mind completely.

We have became one of the best AOErs and those talents can help both speed up trash clearing time and help on boss encounters where adds are present.

Whilst I am still some way away from starting endgame, as I didn't have a lot of time to level, in my instance experience so far (cleared most of pre-heroic Northrend instances) Typhoon and Hurricane have been very useful. Typhoon especially is fantastic because of its instant high burst damage and buying a little extra time on "oh shit" situations thanks to pushback.

Alerian, the second Eclipse point should definitely be worth it.

Improved IS might be better than Celestial Focus, however the recent discovery of CF buff being multiplicative might turn the tables.

Ripuanewhole read the discussion in the talent thread - you are making some very bad choices.

#33 Lord BEEF

Lord BEEF

    Soda Popinski

  • Guild Members
  • 3826 posts

Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:03 PM

Mages seem to be the worst off at the moment, on Gluth last night (which Typhoon absolutely owns on BTW!) our mages were whining about being OOM when I was on 50% mana with Innervate and Pot still available.


Mages that spec for Blizzard can do just as well as any AOE class, and do some things that no other class can. The problem for them is that they have to skip some single target DPS talents to really take advantage of it.

Fully talented Blizzard can be 60%+ crit in some situations, slow the targets to 15% movement speed, and periodically stun.

#34 khel

khel

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 220 posts

Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:50 AM

The way I have begun to handle eclipse and my dps rotation is a bit different than I have seen mentioned so far.

When Eclipse procs, you should always be already casting your next spell. If you are chain casting Starfires and Eclipse procs, then you will finish your next starfire before switching to wraths to make the most use of the proc. Similarly, if you are chain casting wraths then once Eclipse procs, you finish off your next wrath cast then switch to Starfires.

What I suspect is a more efficient way to handle Eclipse is to alternate wrath with SF until it procs, and because you are alternating you are already casting the best nuke when it procs and can continue to chain cast that spell until the buff duration is over. I haven't done extensive testing or TC modeling on it yet but it does make sense to me, if the values of SF and Wrath Eclipses are fairly similar in dps value.

#35 Ulthwithian

Ulthwithian

    Piston Honda

  • Members
  • 149 posts

Posted 25 November 2008 - 01:08 PM

As a second to what BEEF says, Blizzard is very powerful for Mages who spec for it now. Something that he didn't mention is that, fully talented, Blizzard applies Winter's Chill on every mob it hits, with every pulse of the spell. Combined with a Moonkin throwing Hurricane, the AoE potential of those classes is intense.

In that circumstance, Typhoon is also useful if a mob makes it out of the Blizzard, as it can push them right back into it. I must agree with those who find Typhoon an incredibly useful skill to have. I am extremely pleased with Moonkin AoE damage now, and it shines brightest in certain pre-80 dungeons.

My favorite move to date (still leveling) has been to use Starfall to pull all of the boss adds in Azjol-Nerub to me for a quick Hurricane burn-down.

#36 Unknownchamp

Unknownchamp

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 9 posts

Posted 25 November 2008 - 03:50 PM

What I suspect is a more efficient way to handle Eclipse is to alternate wrath with SF until it procs, and because you are alternating you are already casting the best nuke when it procs and can continue to chain cast that spell until the buff duration is over. I haven't done extensive testing or TC modeling on it yet but it does make sense to me, if the values of SF and Wrath Eclipses are fairly similar in dps value.

This is a very interesting thought. I'd be curious to see how this compares. I should hopefully start raiding next week. But if anyone could test this and provide some numbers that would be great!

#37 Korben

Korben

    Glass Joe

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 25 November 2008 - 04:49 PM

Twisting wraths and starfires does sound interesting. That would make eclipse procs a little easier, assuming it doesn't matter which eclipse procs. Also if you're using the moonfire glyph, it should still give you the full duration extension except possibly when wrath eclipse procs.

Aside from "real world" testing, what is the current simulation that is being used?

#38 Erdluf

Erdluf

    Great Tiger

  • Members
  • 968 posts

Posted 25 November 2008 - 05:08 PM

Aside from "real world" testing, what is the current simulation that is being used?


I believe WrathCalcs and Rawr are using static estimates of the number of casts required to proc eclipse (at 40% crit, it takes an average of 2.5 SF to proc 3/3 Eclipse), and then adding an extra cast of the "wrong" spell to handle reaction time. Adjusting those calculations for "twisting" should not be too hard, but would be a bit time consuming.

Simulationcraft works off of a spell priority list. It is a simulator, and uses multiple runs to compute average statistics. It handles reaction times. If its priority list has any support for weaving, I don't know how to invoke it.

#39 thedopefishlives

thedopefishlives

    Don Flamenco

  • Members
  • 482 posts

Posted 25 November 2008 - 05:11 PM

I believe WrathCalcs and Rawr are using static estimates of the number of casts required to proc eclipse (at 40% crit, it takes an average of 2.5 SF to proc 3/3 Eclipse), and then adding an extra cast of the "wrong" spell to handle reaction time. Adjusting those calculations for "twisting" should not be too hard, but would be a bit time consuming.

Simulationcraft works off of a spell priority list. It is a simulator, and uses multiple runs to compute average statistics. It handles reaction times. If its priority list has any support for weaving, I don't know how to invoke it.


Spell twisting would basically be an extra option in Rawr. It would be doable, but it would take quite a bit of time, and I'm honestly not sure about how big the benefit would be.

#40 Khalanis

Khalanis

    Von Kaiser

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 25 November 2008 - 05:23 PM

well, three real question as to the #s viability of twisting.
1) Is it better, worse, or similar DPS to twist or straight cast?(before the eclipse)
2) What is the difference between a wrath hit and an eclipsed starfire hit, and vice verse.(What's the gain for starting the eclipse proc with the buffed spell vs non-buffed)
3) Is the wrath or SF eclipse a better use of the cooldown? Or are they so close together it doesn't really matter?

These are the values you'd have to look @ to see if there is a benefit.(Other than that warm fuzzy feeling that you used the whole eclipse proc for it's benefit =P)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users