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#41 Kuruk

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 05:58 PM

Regarding spell twisting, isn't Starfire-Eclipse a much bigger DPS increase than Wrath-Eclipse?

#42 ryttingm

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 06:18 PM

I am attempting to update my simulator for level 80. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find out how crit scales with intellect at level 80. At level 70 80 intellect provided 1% crit, but my druid is only level 77 so I don't have the final scaling at level 80. (it is clear that it isn't staying at 80 int per 1%). Anyone who knows this number? In addition, I'm not sure the base crit chance is still the same. It used to be that chance to crit = 1.85 + int/80 + critRating/22.08. I know that the critRating scaling goes to 45.91 at level 80, but I'm having a hard time with the rest of the formula. Looking at tooltips of druids at level 80 it looks like the formula is 1.8 + int/164.286 + critRating/45.91.

edit: I have found the answer here http://elitistjerks....ngs_level_80_a/

#43 Hamlet

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 08:06 PM

Question on rotations:
I've been tinkering with specs/rotations in Rawr quite a bit as we get started with WLK raiding. With my current setup (think it's not in Armory as I was Resto yesterday, but still mostly SWP gear), Rawr recommends a IS/MF/W rotation, which I'm going to try tonight.

Firstly, just to be clear, the "W" means, "Wrath to proc a Starfire-Eclipse, but still chain SF during the Eclipse CD," right?

What exactly is the right way to play this? After putting up MF and IS, do I cast 3 SF's to extend the MF fully ("risking" a Wrath-Eclipse)? Or jump straight into Wrath spam (risking letting the MF tick out before Eclipse procs)? Similarly, what's the deal with refreshing DoT's around Eclipse (since they frequently are falling off just as, or soon after, Eclipse procs)? Just ignore them until the Eclipse is over?

Finally, as anyone done the numbers on Wrathing during Bloodlust (which wastes some NG procs) to get a sweet Bloodlusted SF-Eclipse?

#44 skeldi

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 09:08 PM

The way I have begun to handle eclipse and my dps rotation is a bit different than I have seen mentioned so far.

When Eclipse procs, you should always be already casting your next spell. If you are chain casting Starfires and Eclipse procs, then you will finish your next starfire before switching to wraths to make the most use of the proc. Similarly, if you are chain casting wraths then once Eclipse procs, you finish off your next wrath cast then switch to Starfires.

What I suspect is a more efficient way to handle Eclipse is to alternate wrath with SF until it procs, and because you are alternating you are already casting the best nuke when it procs and can continue to chain cast that spell until the buff duration is over. I haven't done extensive testing or TC modeling on it yet but it does make sense to me, if the values of SF and Wrath Eclipses are fairly similar in dps value.


the problem with that I believe is the wrath + nature's grace problem. if you're wasting nature's grace procs on wraths, you're not using it to the fullest extent (except under eclipse, when wrath's increased damage outweighs the damage lost from haste), correct?

#45 Hamlet

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 09:10 PM

the problem with that I believe is the wrath + nature's grace problem. if you're wasting nature's grace procs on wraths, you're not using it to the fullest extent (except under eclipse, when wrath's increased damage outweighs the damage lost from haste), correct?


I was under the impression that the GCD-shortening effect of NG makes it perfectly workable with Wrath, except when under the effect of Bloodlust.

#46 Adoriele

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 09:37 PM

I was under the impression that the GCD-shortening effect of NG makes it perfectly workable with Wrath, except when under the effect of Bloodlust.


No. It still caps the GCD at 1s, so with any haste you're still going to have a cast time less than the GCD. It's just a lot better than previously, when the GCD stayed put at 1.5/haste.

#47 Ashaera

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 10:34 PM

My rotation is IS+MF as tank positions mob -> wrath to apply Earth & Moon fast -> Starfire untill Eclipseproc.
& after that a priority list :
* Eclipse up = Wrath.
* Dots off = Reapply.
* Starfire.

In some fights I wait with dots if theres a movement phase incomming (Fx Malygos Whirlwind / electricityshift at Thaddius).

Adding in trees & starfall, but thats very fight dependant.

#48 thedopefishlives

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:17 AM

Question on rotations:
I've been tinkering with specs/rotations in Rawr quite a bit as we get started with WLK raiding. With my current setup (think it's not in Armory as I was Resto yesterday, but still mostly SWP gear), Rawr recommends a IS/MF/W rotation, which I'm going to try tonight.

Firstly, just to be clear, the "W" means, "Wrath to proc a Starfire-Eclipse, but still chain SF during the Eclipse CD," right?

What exactly is the right way to play this? After putting up MF and IS, do I cast 3 SF's to extend the MF fully ("risking" a Wrath-Eclipse)? Or jump straight into Wrath spam (risking letting the MF tick out before Eclipse procs)? Similarly, what's the deal with refreshing DoT's around Eclipse (since they frequently are falling off just as, or soon after, Eclipse procs)? Just ignore them until the Eclipse is over?

Finally, as anyone done the numbers on Wrathing during Bloodlust (which wastes some NG procs) to get a sweet Bloodlusted SF-Eclipse?


Here's the way Rawr works: IS/MF/W casts those three spells. If you have the SF glyph, it inserts 3 SF casts, so the rotation becomes as follows: MF/SFx3/IS/W. If you proc Eclipse, there are two possibilities, depending on if you selected "Smart Switching" in the Options tab. If it is disabled, then yes, it will assume that you switch to Starfire when Eclipse procs. If it is enabled, then it assumes you will switch to Starfire when the Eclipse cooldown is up and attempt to force the Wrath Eclipse proc. As for refreshing DoT's around Eclipse, I can't honestly say what Rawr is trying to calculate there. I believe it most closely approximates not refreshing your DoT spells, though.

#49 Miim

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 09:05 AM

I love the idea about twisting Wrath and SF, has anyone done any numbers testing on this? But the idea seems very good in the fact that you gain more eclipse time with it.

From my testing yday I could find no clear numbers to go Wrath eclipse or SF eclipse. Its just to random. I think that this can be a nice way to get the best of both worlds.

/looks forward for some testing today.

#50 hoffmand9

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 09:18 AM

How many fights in the 25 mans have unavoidable mechanics that will proc owlkin frenzy?

#51 spartakos

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 10:01 AM

One more thing is that if you try to proc eclipse with wrath its much better,maybe even mandatory, to have 3/3 eclipse. Also eclipse is not something you can control trying to force it to proc in bloodlust when even with 3 talents its 60% seems too risky, at least I just spam starfire while refreshing only moonfire for the 3% crit.

#52 khel

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 10:22 AM

How many fights in the 25 mans have unavoidable mechanics that will proc owlkin frenzy?


Naxxramas
Spider Wing
Anub'Rekhan - Corpse scarabs and impale
Grand Widow Faerlina - poison bolt volley and rain of fire
Maexxna - web spray

Abomination Wing
Patchwerk - nothing
Grobbulus - mutating injection
Gluth - decimate
Thaddius - both Stalagg and Feugen can warstomp and Feugen has an AoE mana drain nuke, polarity shifts in phase 2

Deathknight Wing
Instructor Razuvious - disrupting shout
Gothik the Harvester - trainees do arcane explosions, riders have unholy aura
The Four Horsemen - all of the marks, and meteor

Plague Wing
Noth the Plaguebringer - most aoe can be outranged, curse of the plaguebringer probably procs it though
Heigan the Unclean - decrepit fever sometimes during phase changes
Loatheb - Inevitable Doom

Frostwyrm Lair
Sapphiron - frost aura, lifedrain, sometimes the blizzard is unavoidable
Kel'Thuzad - aoe frostbolt, detonate mana


I listed a lot more than the constant auras that deal damage like Sapphiron's frost aura, and many of these probably have a very small impact on Frenzy uptime, but talents spent there seem far from useless in Naxxramas anyway. This reset I am going to experiment a bit more with this spec and see better how much Frenzy uptime I have and if there are mana issues.

#53 hoffmand9

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 02:22 PM

Yea, I was thinking that if frenzy procs often enough to go with a build like this at least until wrath is fixed to lower the GCD below 1s and/or they add a wrath + starfire idol. I figure I'd juse use the starfire idol with an IS/MF/SF rotation (dropping IS if it is a DPS increase to do so). This would also help out with mana issues.

If it doesn't proc enough then I'll just stick with 2/3 eclipse using the MF/SFx3/IS/W rotation.

#54 Ashaera

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:07 PM

I really don't see the use for Owlkin Freenzy in Naxxramas.
Lets have a realistic view of what happens to you during a full Naxxramas run - Adding numbers of the only wws report I have from Naxx so far.


Naxxramas
Spider Wing
Anub'Rekhan - You might be lucky & get hit by a corpse scarab - With me being 4th in damage done to Scarabs, I took 4 incomming hits from them.
Impale knocks you up into the air, efficiently wasting half of the proc.

Grand Widow Faerlina - Poison bolt volley true (wws missing from this fight so can't set an approximate number on). Rain of fire doesn't fall into the category unavoidable mechanics, if you pay attention then this might damage you once a year.

Maexxna - Web spray
"Cast every 40 seconds incapacitating everyone for 8 seconds, and dealing 1,750 - 2,250 Nature damage."
An optimistic guess is that you can do 1 wrathcast boosted by the proc pr kill.
-----
Abomination wing
Grobbulus - I had 11 damaging hits on me, average seems to be like 25 though. Lets be optinistic & say you proc 4 times, that would have given me 40seconds with 10% more damage dealt. My number of incomming hits is based on the fight lasting 5mins & 45seconds - Granting an uptime of 11.6%. A 1.16% damage increase for 3 talent points spend.

Gluth - Decimate hits you around 3 times during a kill. Perhaps you get "lucky" & overaggro on some adds to take a few addional hits.

Thaddius - Over 2 attempts (a 1% wipe & a kill) I took 33 hits in a total time of 12minutes & 22seconds. Ignoring the fact that several hits can occur simultaneously & assuming 5 procs, your uptime becomes 6.7%. A 0.67& damage increase.
-----
Deathknight Wing
Instructor Razuvious - 16hits over 279seconds. Optimistic again saying 3 procs, uptime becomes 10.8%. A 1.08%damage increase.

Gothik the Harvester - I got hit twice, first time was a mob reflecting a spell back on me & the 2nd time was me tanking Gothik for 1 shadowbolt.

The Four Horsemen - Wws is hopeless for this.
----
Plague Wing
Noth the Plaguebringer - 0 damage taken.
Heigan the Unclean - 2 hits, both me failing to dance.

Loatheb - Unsure - I took damage around 70 times, only 8 of those appear to be an attack on me though - Most of the rest is listed as dots ticking. Can a dot ticking proc it?
----
Sapphiron - Loads of incomming hits from his aura, so if that triggers it you might see a benefit here.
Kel'Thuzad - 19incomming hits over 460 seconds, lets assume that I was lucky & look at the caster being hit the most. Then we have 30 incomming hits over 460 seconds, providing us 5 procs with some luck. A total uptime of 10.9%, which equal a damage increase of 1.09%.

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We might disagree, but I find a situational talent that might provide you with an optimistic 0.5% damage pr. point very unattactive. To free points for it you would have to skip allmost all mana talents & improved faerie fire wouldn't be an option.

Its a nice tool for pvp & solo aoegrinding though.

#55 erragal

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:49 PM

I have to agree with Ashaera on this one. Owlkin Frenzy is a talent with the potential for value in PVE situations but Naxxramas is not the zone you would really use it on. Four Horsemen, Sapphiron, and Loatheb are the only fights that would trigger it enough. With dual-spec you could potentially have a specialty frenzy spec for those fights but you'd be wasting the opportunity to switch to healing on the fly.

Sunwell was a much more appropriate zone for frenzy; every encounter had unavoidable aoe damage some almost constantly ticking. It's really a talent we'll have to reevaluate when the new raid zones are released and even on a boss-by-boss casis.

#56 mokg

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:58 AM

I personally go for a wrath until eclipse then starfire spam rotation. With MF/IS/Starfall/Treants worked in at the appropriate times of course. I've tested on test dummies with nearly all rotations and find this to be the best self buffed(raid buffs might benefit one rotation more than another, I don't know). Here is a WWS of our last patchwerk:

Wow Web Stats

This rotation will also get more benefit out of the 25 man starfire idol once I get it.

#57 Marauding Master

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 03:01 AM

What I suspect is a more efficient way to handle Eclipse is to alternate wrath with SF until it procs, and because you are alternating you are already casting the best nuke when it procs and can continue to chain cast that spell until the buff duration is over. I haven't done extensive testing or TC modeling on it yet but it does make sense to me, if the values of SF and Wrath Eclipses are fairly similar in dps value.


I tried this and I found it to be of no DPS loss whatsoever during my HCs. It increased my DPS during Heroism/Bloodlust. I'm going to run on a dummy later and see if it's a better option to use. Sadly the random crit factor makes it so hard to say if it's really an increase or not.

#58 Tyrenia

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 12:07 PM

i fail at qoting, sry

ashaera, which glyphs are you using?

ps: is there a spreadsheet out alrdy?

#59 Spink

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 03:02 AM

I'm starting to feel that Starfall atleast is excess to requirements for trash/heroic aoe. It's probably going to shave less than two seconds off trash packs worth aoeing unless you're the only aoe capable caster and it has a 3 minute cooldown so it's only up 1-3 times between bosses. Typhoon - sure I love it for heroics and naxx trash, it's every 20 seconds it can help with positioning and if needed the knockback can be prevented with shockwave or frostnova.

#60 Shablamo

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 10:33 AM

When considering Starfall for raid DPS would it not be worth taking into consideration the fact that it procs Natures Grace on crits? Especially on fights with 2 or more targets (there are many in Naxx), Starfall would almost guarantee each Starfire will be cast under the effect of NG during its duration.

I'm not sure how to add this to my evaluations of Starfall (and it may be negligible) but it's one more thing to consider.




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