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Shadowpriest Theory Craft - 3.2.2 Edition!


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#41 Bartlebum

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:20 PM

I would agree with Meltface. A single tick of MF (which is all you'll get probably) is not equal in damage to even a non crit Death. However, if you only have 1.5 seconds, I would not cast a Death because taking into account lag and GCD it's quite possible that if all you have is 1.5 seconds, you'll end up letting something drop off or clip. So if you're waiting you could be better off renewing your touch early if you have like less than 3 seconds left or something rather than risking tossing a death in and probably letting something drop off.

#42 Sadiem

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 06:13 PM

I checked the whole thread really quick, and I did not see anyone talking about it, but wouldn't Glyph of Shadow word: Death be best for dps as last glyph? I mean, that spell might not be in our rotation, but maybe it would be worth it to bring it in when the mob is under 35% when you have the glyph?

#43 etrnl

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 09:20 PM

I checked the whole thread really quick, and I did not see anyone talking about it, but wouldn't Glyph of Shadow word: Death be best for dps as last glyph? I mean, that spell might not be in our rotation, but maybe it would be worth it to bring it in when the mob is under 35% when you have the glyph?


I really don't think so.

Glyph of Shadow
Glyph of Shadow Word: Pain

Glyph of Mind Flay
OR
Glyph of Dispel Magic

Glyph of SW:D is more of a PvP Glyph, in my opinion. The DPS increase from it seems very minimal given 35% is generally when BL's and Hero's get popped, or are still effective, so that 10% could easily be surpassed by all other spells.

Of course, numbers showing differ would change things a bit.

#44 Xtoforas

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 09:27 PM

Also, with respect to the Glyph of Shadow Word: Death, looking at simulationcrafts sample output SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code using the Naxx10 gear set shows only a ~0.6% dps increase from using the glyph.

There is a stipulation where the the other shadowpriest actor (Priest_14_0_57_NoSWD) has dropped Shadow Word: Death from his toolbox completely.

Personally, I have yet to use a Glyph of Shadow Word: Death nor find an inscriptor on my server to make the glyph. However, I do actively use Shadow Word: Death on most fights so maybe I'm penalizing myself dps-wise by doing so.

#45 Shych

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:12 PM

I belive that SW: D does more damage than mindflay does in 1,5sec. aslong as you can do a mindflay after the sw:d. I tried diffrent rotations yesterday in naxxramas, and I noticed a dps increase (might have been the bosses though) while using sw: D when there were 4,5 or more sec left untill MB cooldown or a dot was going off.

#46 Mearis

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:32 AM

On the topic of WWS:
How are people finding their damage compared to 'non hybrid' DPS? We have an exceptional very well geared mage, and my gear is still very suboptimal with several level 70 pieces, but I find that I tipically end up doing ~1000-1500 DPS below what the pure classes are clocking in. Looking at the top DPS WWS, this seems to stay true as well.

I thought with the expansion, their stated goal was to have pure classes such as mages/hunters/warlocks/rogues about 10% ahead of hybrids DPS, but right now the margin seems to be at least 30%. Is this due to lack of familiarity with cycles/gear difference, or is anyone able to stay within 10% of mages/hunters at similar gear levels right now? A cursory glance at shadowpriest damage seems to show that shadowpriests with current gear hover around ~4000 DPS max, and hunters/mages are well over 5500+ dps.

#47 nero

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 02:43 AM

Just out of curiosity, how important is the Improved mind blast talent? I was looking into the shadow tree for a way to make a pve and pvp hybrid spec which included silence but i could not fill up the other good PvE talents, so i thought maybe i could drop some in improved MB.

Would a build like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft be a significant dps decrease over the standard PvE dps build?

#48 Shigan

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 03:27 AM

I've thought about whether to use the Glyph of SW: D or the Glyph of Shadow as my last glyph. If you really read the Glyph of SW: D properly, it is practically useless 65% of the time, and the 10% increase during the last 35% of the time would only mean a flat rate of 3.5% of the overall SW: D's dps. Many a time, the useage of SW: D also depends on your healers, if they're good enough to notice your health, SW: D might be in your rotation often, however when it comes down to fights where healers are busy, then the glyph of SW: D is as good as useless. The Glyph of Shadow procs everytime you crit, that which cannot be controlled, and if you were to have a high crit rate, it would mean a stable increase of output dps, which in my opinion would be the better choice over Glyph of SW: D.

#49 Karoshi

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 01:19 PM

On the topic of WWS:
How are people finding their damage compared to 'non hybrid' DPS? We have an exceptional very well geared mage, and my gear is still very suboptimal with several level 70 pieces, but I find that I tipically end up doing ~1000-1500 DPS below what the pure classes are clocking in. Looking at the top DPS WWS, this seems to stay true as well.


At the moment I'm usually finding myself between #1 and #5 on WWS, though one of the reasons could be that I'm currently one of our best equipped DDs (itemlvl-wise).
Wow Web Stats
Some people in the log are still completely lvl 70 equipped or lack a bunch of hit, so this shouldnt be taken as a realistic comparison.

#50 Endahl

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 06:05 AM

How are people finding their damage compared to 'non hybrid' DPS? We have an exceptional very well geared mage, and my gear is still very suboptimal with several level 70 pieces, but I find that I tipically end up doing ~1000-1500 DPS below what the pure classes are clocking in.

Right now our WWS mainly seems to reflect relative gear levels, but we have a demo lock and a pair of BM hunters clocking in at almost exactly the same DPS as me with them having less raid or heroic level L80 gear. I imagine they'll be significantly ahead of me by the time they replace all their blues and L70 raid gear. I don't know where rogues and mages fit into the picture as ours seem to be struggling with gear and adjusting to their new cycles...

#51 Shych

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 01:21 PM

At the moment I'm usually finding myself between #1 and #5 on WWS, though one of the reasons could be that I'm currently one of our best equipped DDs (itemlvl-wise).
Wow Web Stats
Some people in the log are still completely lvl 70 equipped or lack a bunch of hit, so this shouldnt be taken as a realistic comparison.


Hey!, this is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

I got a ring, with 39 hit, and a trinket with 55 hit and a belt with 40~ hit which replaces the other gear, so i got around 1400 Spellpower with that gear and some less crit, mayb 12% instead of 14,58%.

And on bosses i'm around 2200 dps, And i'm wondering if i am doing something wrong with my rotation, since you do a whooping 1k more dps... (on bosses this is) My rotation is usually, VE ->swd->DP->MB->SW.P(if full scorch) else mf->sw.p.

Then i go with prio
1 VE
2 MB
3 DP
4 SW.D
5 MF.
if there is like 0,5 sec cd on MB i skip doing MF and do MB.
same with DP.

Is this correct? I've read on shadowpriest.com that it could be better(atleast mana-wise with almost no dps decrease, that you should skip SW.D).

Thanks

#52 Karoshi

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 01:54 PM

Buffed and grouped i run around 2200-2600 spellpower, so I guess you're doing it right.

#53 Renraku

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:10 PM

At the moment I'm usually finding myself between #1 and #5 on WWS, though one of the reasons could be that I'm currently one of our best equipped DDs (itemlvl-wise).
Wow Web Stats
Some people in the log are still completely lvl 70 equipped or lack a bunch of hit, so this shouldnt be taken as a realistic comparison.


The other classes tend to surge ahead once they complete their 4 piece bonus, we have nothing like that to really strive for since ours is pretty lack luster. Maybe with the corresponding glyph, it might be ok, but after trying the glyph out I really missed the 10 extra yards on Mindflay. Especially on movement based fights.

Also the Mindflay clipping bug is still present and it seems like the more haste I have, or if Bloodlust/Heroism is active, the more it clips; but that's speculation. I've been having way too much fun to really dive into any detective work. At least there was a blue post over the last few days reminding us that they're looking into it.
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#54 Mearis

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:39 PM

I just think with the current gear in game, shadowpriests 'cap out' at 4k dps or so, while hunters/mages can clear 5k easily enough. That's at least 20% margin, which is a lot higher than a 5-10% increase that GC was talking about.

#55 Bartlebum

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 04:35 PM

I got a ring, with 39 hit, and a trinket with 55 hit and a belt with 40~ hit which replaces the other gear, so i got around 1400 Spellpower with that gear and some less crit, mayb 12% instead of 14,58%.


Your gear is very sub-par atm. Your hit is VERY far off and your spell power is about 200 off where you'd be doing gobtons of DPS. Remember, hit is the most important stat to look at until you're capped. You'll make up a ton of the DPS you're lacking just if you hit more. Also, for the love of god, level some professions.

#56 Bartlebum

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 04:37 PM

Maybe with the corresponding glyph, it might be ok, but after trying the glyph out I really missed the 10 extra yards on Mindflay. Especially on movement based fights.


Also, on Malygos, during phase 2, the MF glyph really helps a lot or you can't use it.

#57 dyelynn

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 05:25 PM

After malygos and naxx25, I really don't see a way to do without the MF glyph, or a reason to for that matter. Beyond using it to stack SW at the beginning of a fight, or after a heavy movement cycle where it drops off, I don't find myself casting at all. Perhaps adding the SW:D glyph with the t7 4pc would make it more worthwhile, and I'll check that out once I get there, but for now, MF seems the way to go.

Also, after doing some 10 man stuff and a whole crapton of heroics, I decided i needed veiled shadows to stay in mana. After clearing naxx 25, I've decided I don't. In basically entry level raid gear (2 badge hit items and 2-3 heroic epics, ect.) I was fine on every encounter using only my fiend and dispursion (only used dispursion 3-4 times through the whole instance). I drank 1 mana potion through the entire encounter... on sapp I think.

1 more talent item I'd like to make note of... for trash mind sear + blackout = tits. So sweet to see multiple mobs with swirlies popping up as my 2k crits float above them. Obviously blackout is personal pref, but it really is quite nice for everything but bosses, lol.

#58 Shych

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 02:03 PM

Your gear is very sub-par atm. Your hit is VERY far off and your spell power is about 200 off where you'd be doing gobtons of DPS. Remember, hit is the most important stat to look at until you're capped. You'll make up a ton of the DPS you're lacking just if you hit more. Also, for the love of god, level some professions.



Maybe i wrote abit confusing. With my ring, trinket and belt I'm hit capped. (300hit). And buffed I have around 1875 spellpower.

#59 Manes

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 02:27 PM

Hey!, this is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

I got a ring, with 39 hit, and a trinket with 55 hit and a belt with 40~ hit which replaces the other gear, so i got around 1400 Spellpower with that gear and some less crit, mayb 12% instead of 14,58%.

And on bosses i'm around 2200 dps, And i'm wondering if i am doing something wrong with my rotation, since you do a whooping 1k more dps... (on bosses this is) My rotation is usually, VE ->swd->DP->MB->SW.P(if full scorch) else mf->sw.p.

Then i go with prio
1 VE
2 MB
3 DP
4 SW.D
5 MF.
if there is like 0,5 sec cd on MB i skip doing MF and do MB.
same with DP.

Is this correct? I've read on shadowpriest.com that it could be better(atleast mana-wise with almost no dps decrease, that you should skip SW.D).

Thanks

Priority is wrong, also I presume you mean VT when you say VE.

Opening should be
VT->DP->MB->SW:D->SW:P->VE->MF

Ideally you want your highest priority spells to come off CD first

Priority should be
1. VT
2. DP
3. MB
4. VE
5. MF

SW:D should only be cast
1. To get the two initial stacks of shadow weaving
2. When moving
3. When you have 1.5sec spare until a VT/DP runs out or MB comes off CD

Edit: My apologies, it seems that most of what I've said was posted by the OP anyway.

Two questions:

1. Black magic is terrible right? From what I've read on wowhead the DPS is worse than 63 SP, and it uses up a much needed debuff slot
2. I'm out of the loop a bit, is there anyway to make Inner focus/Devouring plague a one button click without /stopcasting? Being on an oceanic server, I find it tends to lag a little bit, sometimes not getting DP off unless I'm spamming the button, and I lose about a second worth of cast time.

#60 Xtoforas

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 04:19 PM

I'm purely speculating and I haven't had a chance to compare this initial rotation versus a more customary one on a training dummy and I don't know if its appropriate for this thread, but would this alternative initial spell casting sequence yield a higher initial dps (albeit at the cost of higher initial threat)

1) MB
2) SWD
3) VT
4) DP
5) MB
6) SWP

In addition to the huge amount of threat you can cause in 1.5 seconds (mb + swd crit for ~10k) you miss out on having a full stack of shadow weaving as well as the misery debuff for your first mind blast, but you do get 2 mind blasts in the first 9 seconds of the fight which is a bonus.

I've been trying this alternative initial spellcasting rotation during raids and I found it has made me a bit more efficient on trash because I've been used to doing the VT->DP->MB->SWD rotation on bosses and then doing the same on trash where front loading dots is usually inefficient.




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