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WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion


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#1 chalon

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 12:39 AM

This thread is intended to discuss what our most optimal gear setups are. This is not intended to replace a spreadsheet for personal usage to figure out what upgrades are good for you, but instead give a guideline as to what items you should be looking out for.

In general I'm talking about currently known BiS combinations. So most of this will be 25 man gear, but where appropriate, I'll list 10 man gear as well.

Weapons
Combat: for your main hand. There probably won't be a better MH than that discovered simply because it's 239. For off-hand, it's pretty safe to say it will be .

Mutilate: For your MH dagger, you want . For your OH dagger, you want as well.

HaT: Probably the same combo as Combat, but I don't really pay attention to HaT much.

Ranged: If you're sticking with Throwing Weapons, is your best choice.

Armor
Set Piece Slots
The 4 piece T8 bonus is phenomenal, and we absolutely want to get it at all cost. This leaves one slot where we are likely going to run an off-set piece that's 239. Your 239 offset piece should be either , , or

Non-Set Piece Slots
It's going to depend on your spec a bit. For example, ArPen is substantially better for Combat than for Mutilate, so YMMV.

Gems (Mutilate)
Red: If not Expertise capped, . Otherwise, or .
Yellow: If below poison hit cap, either or . Otherwise, .
Blue: If you're a JC, or . If you're not and you need it for your Meta, go with either or . Otherwise, socket red.

Best in Slot Cheat Sheet
Note, the Combat BiS setup is post instituting the 100% ArP cap which Ghostcrawler has implied they will be adding. Thanks to Aldriana for compiling this chart. Further discussion regarding this here.
[table]Slot|Mutilate|Combat|Combat 2
Helm|||
Helm Gems|16 agi + RED|16 ArPen + RED|16 agi + RED
Neck|||
Neck Gems|27 agi|27 ArPen|27 agi
Shoulder|||
Shoulder Gems|16 agi|16 ArPen|16 agi
Cloak|||
Cloak Gems|16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit|16 ArPen + 8 agi/8 crit|16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit
Chest|||
Chest Gems|16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit|16 ArPen + 8 agi/8 crit|16 agi + 8 agi/8 crit
Bracers|||
Bracer Gems|8 agi/8 crit|8 agi/8 crit|8 agi/8 crit
Gloves|||
Glove Gems|20 agi|20 agi|20 agi
Belt|||
Belt Gems|16agi x2|16ArPenx2|16agi x2
Legs|||
Leg Gems|16 agi + 8agi/8crit + 27 agi|16 ArPen + 8agi/8crit|16 agi + 8agi/8crit
Boots|||
Boot Gems|16 agi + 27 agi|16 ArPen + 27 ArPen|16 agi + 27 agi
Ring1|||
Ring1 Gems|16 agi|16 ArPen|16 agi
Ring2|||
Ring2 Gems|16 agi|16 ArPen|16 agi
Trinket1|Comet's Trail||
Trinket2|/|Comet's Trail|Comet's Trail
Ranged|||
Ranged Socket|-|16 ArPen|-
MH|||
MH Gem|8 agi/8 crit|16 ArPen|8 agi/8 crit
OH|||
OH Gems|16 agi|16 ArPen|16 agi[/table]

#2 Bues

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 07:14 AM

So, say if you were to get the 2 best swords currently available, would Fist/Dagger still be the better combo? Or would swords come out better?

#3 Latito

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:40 AM

These findings are all quite close to mine, although I think a few pieces have a bit more gap than you make out (Neck, Cloak for example). What level of gems were you using? Blue quality? For the gearing, did you find any notable differences (1 item is better for Mutilate, but worse for Combat) between specs?

Also, you put the Shanker pvp weapon in there a lot, did you mean Deadly Gladiator's Shiv?

#4 Imiut

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:27 AM

Add a ranged weapon for good measure (I prefer ).

#5 chalon

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:50 AM

So, say if you were to get the 2 best swords currently available, would Fist/Dagger still be the better combo? Or would swords come out better?


The / combo is better than the two best swords currently available.

These findings are all quite close to mine, although I think a few pieces have a bit more gap than you make out (Neck, Cloak for example). What level of gems were you using? Blue quality? For the gearing, did you find any notable differences (1 item is better for Mutilate, but worse for Combat) between specs?

Also, you put the Shanker pvp weapon in there a lot, did you mean Deadly Gladiator's Shiv?


Yeah, I meant the Shiv. I'll fix that up. As for Combat vs. Mutilate, honestly the EP weights are close enough that while there will be some pieces slightly better for one instead of the other, I don't think you're going to see huge gear gaps develop between the listed items.

And yes, this is assuming you're just using the standard blue gems currently available. It doesn't take into account JC gems.

#6 Lieto

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:36 AM

So basically you copy/pasted http://shadowpanther.net/armor-pve.htm for us or what? -)

#7 MissnL1nK

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 12:47 PM

From the looks of the gear that I have seen I am coming to a sad realization that Mutilate is going to outdmg Combat. I still have trouble soaking this concept in due to years of Combat dominance but I guess over time things change.

#8 Yellek

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 01:19 PM

I know this discussion is geared more towards 25-man items drops, but I found while questing the other day. How well would this stack up with the other badge/drop trinkets from Naxx?

It appears the item is currently not in Wowhead's database. Its stats are EQUIP: Improves haste rating by 73. EQUIP: Chance on critical hit to increase your haste rating by 410 for 10 secs.

#9 Leto

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:44 PM

From the looks of the gear that I have seen I am coming to a sad realization that Mutilate is going to outdmg Combat. I still have trouble soaking this concept in due to years of Combat dominance but I guess over time things change.


I've tried both in raids since hitting 80, and my anecdotal experience so far is that mutilate handily does more dps on a static, single target fight, while combat has the advantage on fights with lots of adds due to much less of a cycle ramp up and improved aoe abilities.

Combat can also pull close on single target depending on the length of the fight, as it is heavily reliant upon cool downs, so the shorter the better.

All just my experience though.

So basically you copy/pasted http://shadowpanther.net/armor-pve.htm for us or what? -)


Looks like the same recommendations except for the trinkets. That makes sense, since trinket value is harder to quantify.
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#10 Guest_Alexsiss_*

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 03:53 PM

Tears of anguish should be far below the Sapph trinket if my math is right. Then again its a boe so its really good for being boe.


Also love the flavor text lol

#11 chalon

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:45 PM

Add a ranged weapon for good measure (I prefer ).


Yeah, well is hands down the way to go I'd imagine. While the KT gun is theoretically a little better, it not being a throwing weapon makes it a bit undesirable for me. Though, I guess you really aren't going to be using Deadly Throw in PvE much.

So basically you copy/pasted http://shadowpanther.net/armor-pve.htm for us or what? -)


Doesn't surprise me the conclusions would be roughly similar, given that we probably used similar EP weights. FWIW, the Wowhead weighting filter is immensely useful (especially with custom weights).

I know this discussion is geared more towards 25-man items drops, but I found while questing the other day. How well would this stack up with the other badge/drop trinkets from Naxx?

It appears the item is currently not in Wowhead's database. Its stats are EQUIP: Improves haste rating by 73. EQUIP: Chance on critical hit to increase your haste rating by 410 for 10 secs.


It'd depend on what the internal cooldown was.

I've tried both in raids since hitting 80, and my anecdotal experience so far is that mutilate handily does more dps on a static, single target fight, while combat has the advantage on fights with lots of adds due to much less of a cycle ramp up and improved aoe abilities.

Combat can also pull close on single target depending on the length of the fight, as it is heavily reliant upon cool downs, so the shorter the better.

All just my experience though.


If it's a murderable boss, Combat is going to have a really, really hard time winning. Combat has an advantage on many add fights not only due to the reasons you listed, but because their FoK will hit for effectively 2x the damage given the current implementation.

As for Combat, they do really well on short fights, as well as fights where their CDs line up well (a fight like P2 KT where you're fighting him for maybe 6.5 minutes or more, so you get two ARs).

#12 MissnL1nK

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:05 PM

If it's a murderable boss, Combat is going to have a really, really hard time winning. Combat has an advantage on many add fights not only due to the reasons you listed, but because their FoK will hit for effectively 2x the damage given the current implementation.

As for Combat, they do really well on short fights, as well as fights where their CDs line up well (a fight like P2 KT where you're fighting him for maybe 6.5 minutes or more, so you get two ARs).


My only issue with Combat right now, which is my personal favorite I might add, is the lack high dps swords available when compared to the current daggers you can obtain. Even if Combat was a slightly stronger tree, I still think Mut would come out on top due to the weapons available to us atm.

#13 chalon

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:53 PM

There certainly is a hole sword itemization. But that doesn't prevent you from running 5/5 CQC Fist/Dagger combat.

#14 Hanos

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:43 PM

I've tried both in raids since hitting 80, and my anecdotal experience so far is that mutilate handily does more dps on a static, single target fight, while combat has the advantage on fights with lots of adds due to much less of a cycle ramp up and improved aoe abilities.

Combat can also pull close on single target depending on the length of the fight, as it is heavily reliant upon cool downs, so the shorter the better.

All just my experience though.


In any stationary fight on a murderable target Mutilate is going to come out ahead assuming the same gear and weapon levels, however on targets that are not murderable the difference is non-existant, and combat provides a lot of additional utility and causes FoB to hit significantly harder. Right now the main issue I have seen with Mutilate is that right now we are having debuff issues where Deadly Poison is getting knocked off, and without the ability to use Deadly Poison or Envenom the DPS from a Mutilate spec really takes a nose dive.

For everything posted above I got essentially the exact same results, however it is kind of a "take what drops" mentality right now. Ideal set is 4 piece T7.25 with the Sartharion legs, however 4 piece with the Malygos chest and 4 piece with the Malygos gloves are both very close. We got a chest on each of our first 2 kills, no legs and no gloves, so I picked up the chest, and we got the BoE gloves off Sapp, so I grabbed those because they are still significantly better then the Sunwell crafted ones.

The bottomline right now is take what you can, don't go over the expertise cap (which I currently am, until I can get a different belt), and then fill in the ideal pieces when you can. Everything is a 60+ DPS upgrade currently, the difference between 60 and 65 isn't worth stressing over and anyone who lets a 60 DPS upgrade rot or go offspec needs to have their head examined.

#15 chalon

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:00 PM

I know this discussion is geared more towards 25-man items drops, but I found while questing the other day. How well would this stack up with the other badge/drop trinkets from Naxx?

It appears the item is currently not in Wowhead's database. Its stats are EQUIP: Improves haste rating by 73. EQUIP: Chance on critical hit to increase your haste rating by 410 for 10 secs.


If we assume a 45s internal cooldown, and that it procs at a fairly high rate, it would weigh in at about 225 EP for both Mutilate and Combat, using the "starting point" EPs posted in the simple questions thread. This puts it fairly low on the list, as compared to: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t26242-pve_dps_wotlk_discussion/p126/#post927841

As for in case anyone's wondering, if again you assume 45s internal cooldown and that it procs when it can, you're looking at an EP weight of ~256 for Mutilate, and ~249 for Combat. Which makes it a respectable choice until you can get other trinkets.

#16 ZLoBny

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 12:29 AM

Got Grim Toll today from Gothik in Naxx-25, seems to be quite powerful trinket (gives -39.75% target armor for 10 sec as proc) and good hit booster.
I don't know why you didn't mention this one.

#17 chalon

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 04:16 AM

I didn't mention it because it's not really very good compared to the three that I listed.

#18 Feist-Mok

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 10:42 AM

Doesn't surprise me the conclusions would be roughly similar, given that we probably used similar EP weights. FWIW, the Wowhead weighting filter is immensely useful (especially with custom weights).


Any chance you could share a link to the scale you've used? Or did you just plug in Aldriannas rough EP weights?

#19 KingZer0

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 01:52 PM

Nice roundup chalon but i am curious about your conclusion regarding the sword spec.
Consider the 1,5 Speed Offhand Hailstormwhich drops from malygos and has ~157dps.
Wouldnt this sword including the sword spec be bthe better solution then the dagger you posted?

Of course its o,1 seconds faster and therefor that might leads to better Combat Potency Procs but otherwise the 5% chance of an extra hit with your mainhand weapon should compensate for that wouldn`t you guys agree?

#20 chalon

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:35 PM

Nice roundup chalon but i am curious about your conclusion regarding the sword spec.
Consider the 1,5 Speed Offhand Hailstormwhich drops from malygos and has ~157dps.
Wouldnt this sword including the sword spec be bthe better solution then the dagger you posted?

Of course its o,1 seconds faster and therefor that might leads to better Combat Potency Procs but otherwise the 5% chance of an extra hit with your mainhand weapon should compensate for that wouldn`t you guys agree?


Well, you could go Fist/Sword, MH and OH , but in order to get both 5/5 Sword Spec and 5/5 CQC, you have to both drop all 4 of your previous "flex" points, and furthermore drop 1 point in a talent that does give a DPS boost. You'll do all that, but I'm not quite sure there will be a noticeable DPS difference, which is why I'd say it's more preferable to just stay with Fist/Dagger.




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