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WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion


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#41 Haoli

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 10:33 AM

I've got an interesting question for you all here, because I'm not entirely sure what to make of the trinket I'm talking about here, largely because I don't have much information.

The trinket in question is the Darkmoon Card provided by the Undeath Deck.

A report on wowhead shows the card as having:

85 Haste Rating
Each time you deal damage you have a chance to deal 744-956 shadow damage. (Proc rate: 35%, no listed internal CD)


Link



I'm not sure what to make of this trinket as a rogue option next to Fury of the Five Flights or Mirror of Truth, and certainly don't want to be chasing yet another deck if it's no good.

So far as I figure, the proc effect should proc not only off melee hits, but poison ticks, ruptures, and wound/instant poison procs.

Anybody got the know-how to crunch the numbers on this one?

(Edited for spelling errors)

#42 Fezogue

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:28 AM

According to ShadowPanther the best offhand weapon to use is Sinister Revenge yet this is a MH dagger? Can someone confirm whether this is true or not?

#43 koaschten

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:29 AM

Unless i fail at reading tooltips says onehand.
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#44 Neto-

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:33 AM

And Shadowpanther really isn't what you should be using to evaluate upgrades.

But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty :)


#45 chalon

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 12:00 PM

Well, is likely the best off-hand in any event. But it's only very, very slightly better than dual Webbed Deaths.

#46 Raconzor

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 03:46 PM

This is slightly off-topic but ... what would you suggest we use to find upgrades? Going through the spreadsheet in its current form and exhaustively plugging in long lists of possible items in each slot is ... not fun. Of course you will use the spreadsheet to compare the relative merits of a couple of items for a slot, but as a means of finding out what might be upgrades, it is not my tool of choice.

#47 Koca

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 04:37 PM

From the information I've gathered, scribes make the cards for the new decks but other than that I have no idea. Does anybody know how exactly these decks are made?

#48 Maestroquark

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 04:51 PM

From the information I've gathered, scribes make the cards for the new decks but other than that I have no idea. Does anybody know how exactly these decks are made?


Scribes can make , which in turn can be 1 of 8 cards from 1 of 4 decks. For the rogue-centric one, you wan Ace through Eight of Nobles. Combine them, make the deck, get your trinket.
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#49 Xaoc

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 10:43 PM

This is slightly off-topic but ... what would you suggest we use to find upgrades? Going through the spreadsheet in its current form and exhaustively plugging in long lists of possible items in each slot is ... not fun. Of course you will use the spreadsheet to compare the relative merits of a couple of items for a slot, but as a means of finding out what might be upgrades, it is not my tool of choice.


Shadowpanther lists the most likely item ugrades, listed via his calculations. While those calculations might not be the same as what you use to determine usefulness, you can still see what items are out there, and based off those items, get an idea of what upgrades to shoot for. In my experience, I've seen that the item rankings he has are generally correct, and something higher up on the list is generally going to be a DPS upgrade.

#50 chalon

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 06:45 AM

Scribes can make , which in turn can be 1 of 8 cards from 1 of 4 decks. For the rogue-centric one, you wan Ace through Eight of Nobles. Combine them, make the deck, get your trinket.


Be prepared to spend several thousand gold in order to make the card, as well. Completed mine, now just have to wait for the Darkmoon Faire to come back in town.

#51 Almehym

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 07:02 AM

Several thousand seems to be much less than it will end up being, even accounting for variance in servers. Mine has each card going for 1.5k-3k gold per. At a 1/32 chance of getting any particular card that you might need, that seems even more viable than trying to commission an inscriptor to make them. Congratulations on getting your deck made, though.

I wish there were some other, more reliable way of working towards these cards; too many things seem to be gold sinks in LK.

Back on topic, however, I'd like to know about how confident we are that our stat weightings have been nailed down such that the best in slot items for each spec are actually best in slot, and won't be leapfrogged by a potential miscalculation in the value of expertise/hit/ap/agi/etc. I know updates have been made to the spreadsheets, but are they good enough to show which items we should absolutely be looking for? I don't want to be grabbing items, say, over a feral druid or enh shaman when it might be their best in slot but not necessarily mine.

#52 chalon

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 07:39 PM

Ouch, 1.5k-3k is incredibly high. On Lightbringer I was able to get some in the ~500g range, got lucky on some crafts, and made some trades. Overall I spent maybe 5 or 6k.

Regarding your other question, I think the weapons at least is pretty decisive. And it's also pretty decisive that you want to run 4 piece T7.25. The best combo is to get helm, shoulders, chest, gloves and for legs run . I don't think that will change much.

But for something like vs. , it's really very close and hard to say definitively one or the other. Personally I prefer Vile Deceit because a.) I need Expertise Rating from that slot (for me, having high Expertise is important as Mutilate, even though the spreadsheets disagree) and b.) It has a socket which makes it more flexible. That's not to say that Dawnwalkers aren't good -- they are itemized well, it's just I prefer Vile Deceit.

But in these tossup cases, if there is a DPS difference, you're talking on the magnitude of 5 DPS @ 5k overall DPS, so 0.1%.

#53 Leto

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:05 PM

Regarding your other question, I think the weapons at least is pretty decisive. And it's also pretty decisive that you want to run 4 piece T7.25. The best combo is to get helm, shoulders, chest, gloves and for legs run . I don't think that will change much.


When I plugged an optimal setup into the spreadsheet, I found different results.

I saw the optimal offset piece to use was chest of the recluse for mutilate, and frosted adroit handguards for combat.

The expertise was the difference.
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#54 chalon

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:44 PM

Well, it will depend a bit on what other non-set pieces you're running, I imagine. But you can pretty easily cover 213 expertise without the Malygos BP, in which case its values greatly diminishes.

In any event, all three of those are smart pieces to swap out simply because they are ilvl 226 alternatives.

#55 Krolja

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:53 PM

I've noticed that some T7-T7.5 has lots of haste but little or no expertise. Would it be better to enchant/gem for expertise as a Muti rogue, or just stack AP for larger poison damge?

#56 Echophantom

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 10:46 PM

I've noticed that some T7-T7.5 has lots of haste but little or no expertise. Would it be better to enchant/gem for expertise as a Muti rogue, or just stack AP for larger poison damge?


Gem for whatever the spreadsheet says is better.

#57 Hanos

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 04:26 PM

Well, is likely the best off-hand in any event. But it's only very, very slightly better than dual Webbed Deaths.


The main issue with this is that every rogue will want Webbed Death, because it is the best weapon for both specs, so until you get enough to start giving people a second one, you probably want to look for the next best alternative.

#58 Lure

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:06 PM

No one has mentioned it yet but how do you think 2 piece Slayer's stacks up against some of these upgrades? 5% haste on slice and dice seems pretty huge even compared to the raw stat upgrades wotlk items offer...

Just going by shadowpanther for the sake of argument.

slayer's wrist - 112 maep
sinner's bindings - 167 maep
+55

slayer's boot - 162 maep
footwraps vile deceit - 230 maep
+68

slayers belt - 158 maep
stalk skin - 223 maep
+65

Passing on the smallest upgrades in favor of Slayer's 2pc you lose 120 MAEP from raw stats but gain the 5% haste on snd. I'm not too great at haste calculations, someone check my math here :X Going to use my gear which currently has 230 haste rating, or almost exactly 7% haste. I got Torment of the Banished (2.6 spd)

Using
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste1 %)) * (1+(Haste2 %)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/32.8)) )


2pc hasted speed = 2.6 / (1.35 * 1.07)

So if I wanted to achieve the same weapon speed without 2 pc slayers I would have to add X haste rating to my gear:

non-2pc hasted speed = 2.6 / {1.30 * [1+ (((230 + X) / 100) / 32.8)]}

2.6 / {1.30 * [1+ (((230 + X) / 100) / 32.8)]} = 2.6 / (1.35 * 1.07)

X = 129 Haste rating (i think :aaa:)

Shadowpanther values 1 Haste rating at .90 MAEP so

129 Haste rating = 116 MAEP

So 120 maep vs 116 maep, those are pretty close values. Unless I'm retarded :D

So I guess the point is to keep the 2pc slayer's until you can replace all 3 of the Sunwell Slayer's pieces with some of the high end wotlk epics that Chalon or shadowpanther list.

#59 Murr

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 11:06 PM

Several thousand seems to be much less than it will end up being, even accounting for variance in servers. Mine has each card going for 1.5k-3k gold per. At a 1/32 chance of getting any particular card that you might need, that seems even more viable than trying to commission an inscriptor to make them. Congratulations on getting your deck made, though.


That's pretty painful. I guess we've had it easy - I picked up a few for 300-400k, made a couple I needed, been AHing the remains for 400g which is roughly the cost of icethorn/adders stacks + eternal life on our server right now, though herb prices are rising fast. Just missing the Ace and 7 of Nobles now.

#60 mdn

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 05:28 AM

What are the thoughts about ? It seems like it would be very good underneath the expertise cap, and the use on it is incredible; how does it stack up against the other available trinkets?




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